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  #1  
Old 03-05-2005, 07:15 PM
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Default Howdy Everyone. New member looking for help.

Well hey everyone. I'm new here so I'll tell a little about myself before asking questions and what not. I'm 16 years old and I've been working with cars since I was 8. That's 8 years and half my life. Not that I was doing it alone or anything. I didn't work alone until I was 11 or so doing minor repairs. When I was 12 I received a 1967 Dodge Coronet with a slant 6, 3 speed auto, and a 7 1/4 rear from my grandpa. Been in the family since new. I'm building a 383 4BBL for it right now and I'm putting in a 4-speed and an 8 3/4 rear with 3.55:1 gears. I LOVE old mopar muscle cars. Especially B-bodies. I also love 340s in the lighter cars. My project is at http://car-forums.com/talk/showthread.php?t=7240 if you want to see it.


Anyway, my question is where can I find 4340 forged H-beam rods for this beast. Bushed @ 1.094. Stock length of 6.358. Mancini has them for $619.00. Yikes! Can I do any better?
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Old 03-05-2005, 09:07 PM
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Default Welcome aboard

Sometimes you have to turn the right rock for the best price. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet.
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  #3  
Old 03-05-2005, 09:43 PM
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You get what you pay for. Something like this is not going to be cheap in any form. However what are you planning that you are going to need them? Are you going to race it 24/7, street/strip, cruise/stoplight warrior? I can see that they would be nessacary on a high horsepower constant abuse motor. But for most applications, which by looking at yours in the link ,should require more than resized stock rods. You are kinda all over the place in terms of what you want. You have an ultra mild cam because you are worried about idle characteristics, you have KB hypereutetic pistons, and then are throwing a nitrous kit at it and a four gear conversion. All this makes for a confusing setup in terms of what you want. I think you might have been better off with a more motor oriented strategy. I would have gone forged pistons to compliment the aftermarket rods and gone with a bigger cam by far even a .465 lift 225 duration cam would have been ok without saracficing too much idle stability. All I can say is just make sure you gap the rings to keith black specs for nitrous use or that 383 is going to come parta VERY fast. But that is just my thinking....
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Old 03-05-2005, 11:15 PM
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I guess you're right on biting the bullet and taking whats out there.


Mopar4LIF, What I want is a good strong motor, basically running like stock FOR NOW. Very strong because I don't know what I'll do with it later on. What I do know is that I want a good set of rods and what I'm going to buy is just that. On the gapping the rings with the nitrous with KB pistons you're absolutley right. Their high top ring placements create alot of extra heat on the top ring and inturn alot of top ring exspantion. A burp with a nitrous system, going a little lean, just a wee bit, can do alot of damage with improperly set ring gaps. Especially the top. The nitrous system is going to be there to just... well, be there. I will very rarely use it and use it shortly at that. The nitrous at this point isn't alot of concern to me right now. I'm not going to put it on right away as I build this thing anyhow. So let me recap my plans...

My plans for now is to build a very internally strong engine with these good 4340 forged H-beam rods that will handle alot. I believe these pistons are pretty good but I would have rather gone with Forged as you said but unfortunately I couldn't find what I wanted in forged and had to settle for these. These will keep me happy though I think. Initially, I'm going a hair above stock performance (with strong internals however) with a complete Edlelbrock Performer setup. So what I'm going to do is have a street car, 4 speed with 3.55 gears and a very strong 383 build to handle alot but running extremely mild.


I'm going to just pay $619 for the rods from mancini. Looks like it's the best deal. Thank you for your intrest.
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Old 03-05-2005, 11:36 PM
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I like your theory of building strength for future mods, even when it's not necessary now. Pretty wise for your average 16-year-old.

torch
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  #6  
Old 03-06-2005, 01:01 AM
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I'm not trying to flame you here, but do you come from a long line of Chevy guys?

The reason I ask is two fold.

1)you've painted the engine compartment black. Usually a chevy thing, as mopars are body tone under the hood.(again, I'm not flaming you man, just trying to understand. If you want black, then give'r)

2)your unnecessary concern over the rods.

On a chevy, the rods are one of the first upgrades. On a mopar, the rods are one of the last. Stock rods in a 383 will stand 6500 plus rpm and 500 plus horsepower.

On line it may seem easy to get 500 hp from a 383 but not many in the real world ever reach this level, even with a bunch of mods. Eddy heads, cam compression, it takes a lot to get there with a 383.

Again, I'm not mocking you here. Just looking to understand what your line of thinking is.

Myself, If I was building a nitrous motor, I'd spend the money on a set of good forged pistons, instead of the hyperutectic WAAAAAYYYY before I though of buying a set of rods..

Much wiser way to spend your money on pistons that won't split in half, then on upgrading a set of stock rods, that will never fail.
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Old 03-06-2005, 01:48 AM
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yeah, i agree, well, cept for the chevy guy thing, anyway, nice car! now, those rods, they are plenty strong, for anything your gonna dish out. once you drive that thing, youll know what i mean.
those KB's. GAWD! WHY DOES EVERYBODY LIKE KB's????????????????????
get forgies, and never run nitrouse on KB's! (i woundnt run regular on them, to each their own)

and, the 500hp hard to get??
well, if your a chevy guy!

(actually, i hear chevy's get 50hp more just from a chrome valve cover set 29$)
(performer aluminum over stock spreadbore cast iron, 150hp gain 150$)
(big cam on big ports with little valves and low compression, 300hp gain 199$)
(chrome timing cover,35hp gain 39$)
(stupid little edelbrock heart shaped air cleaner, 20+hp gain 85$)
(glasspack on single exaust, 250hp gain 19$)
(chrome pan from schucks, 50 more hp 95$)
(edelbrock carb over good working quadrojunk, well, 500hp, at least 299$)
(getting beat by a car load of kids driving a 383 fury 4 door? pricless!)
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  #8  
Old 03-06-2005, 06:46 AM
Mopar4LIF Mopar4LIF is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 383_Coronet 440
I guess you're right on biting the bullet and taking whats out there.


Mopar4LIF, What I want is a good strong motor, basically running like stock FOR NOW. Very strong because I don't know what I'll do with it later on. What I do know is that I want a good set of rods and what I'm going to buy is just that. On the gapping the rings with the nitrous with KB pistons you're absolutley right. Their high top ring placements create alot of extra heat on the top ring and inturn alot of top ring exspantion. A burp with a nitrous system, going a little lean, just a wee bit, can do alot of damage with improperly set ring gaps. Especially the top. The nitrous system is going to be there to just... well, be there. I will very rarely use it and use it shortly at that. The nitrous at this point isn't alot of concern to me right now. I'm not going to put it on right away as I build this thing anyhow. So let me recap my plans...

My plans for now is to build a very internally strong engine with these good 4340 forged H-beam rods that will handle alot. I believe these pistons are pretty good but I would have rather gone with Forged as you said but unfortunately I couldn't find what I wanted in forged and had to settle for these. These will keep me happy though I think. Initially, I'm going a hair above stock performance (with strong internals however) with a complete Edlelbrock Performer setup. So what I'm going to do is have a street car, 4 speed with 3.55 gears and a very strong 383 build to handle alot but running extremely mild.


I'm going to just pay $619 for the rods from mancini. Looks like it's the best deal. Thank you for your intrest.
Not a problem. Just trying to help you out. I personnally run KB's on a naturally aspirated 340 with no problems. However I am just very skeptical of hypers on anything else. Then again I don't feel like putting a window in my matching numbers block either. That and the fact I will probably turn it into a 408 in the next year or so depending on what money allows and if I feel I have gotten bored with what I currently have. Just one question, who is independently wealthy in your family? Because most 16 year olds will never make the money you are shelling out for the items you are purchasing. Unless you work for family which drastically overpays you, and even then that is VERY rare....
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  #9  
Old 03-06-2005, 10:56 AM
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Looks like I have alot of explaining to do.

dave571,
The reason for the black engine conpartment is personal preference. I like it that way. The interior will be black, the car will be painted the shade of red that some PT's come in. I lost the color name for now maybe someone can help me with that. I think a black engine conpartment, deep rich red car, hemi orange block, chrome valve covers & air cleaner is beautiful. Just my thinking.


I don't feel that putting H-beamers in this engine is unnecessary. I know everyone seems to think it is because I've gone with hyper pistons. Well I stated somewhere in this thread I tried to find forgers but couldnt find them in what I wanted. I had to settle. I do believe these pistons will do me. Believe me, forged pistons were my first choice.


Mopar4LIF, the money question. I need a car and if I build this car it's going to run me cheaper than buying a new one. Basically it's like my parents buying me a car by giving me the money for what I need for this one. Only cheaper. It's costing somewhere around 8 grand. On top of this, there isn't but one newer car I'd have. NEWER, not very new. Very early 90s mustang with a 302 and 5 speed. That's all I'll take of the newer models. But, I'd much rather have a piece of mopar muscle history.

I think this covers it. Thank you all for your time and concern.
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  #10  
Old 03-06-2005, 11:25 AM
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http://www.beckracing.com/page11.htm

This makes them sound good. I have faith in these pistons. Don't ruin it.
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  #11  
Old 03-06-2005, 09:32 PM
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Check out 440source.com they have H beams for $369 they just as good as Eagle and need checked as well.
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Old 03-06-2005, 11:21 PM
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I have a 500 hp 360 with the kb's and stock rods. It has 3 seasons on the motor and not a problem. But I have not run nitrous. All motor.
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  #13  
Old 03-07-2005, 12:31 PM
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I spent hours last night reading up on Hypereutectic pistons and the ones by KB and after reading, reading, reading, I'd much rather have these than forged pistons. Sounds crazy, Yesterday I would have laughed at myself for saying this but I now know the differences in the pistons and what makes the hypereutectics used by KB such a quality piston for a street motor over forged ones.



rellik eeb,
Part No: 6358.1094.2375.H - "B" H-Beam Rods / 6.358" Length / 1.094" Pin size / ARP 2000 bolts - Set of 8 - Price: $369.


That's them! WOW! Thank you so much. I owe you.
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Old 03-07-2005, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 383_Coronet 440
I spent hours last night reading up on Hypereutectic pistons and the ones by KB and after reading, reading, reading, I'd much rather have these than forged pistons. Sounds crazy, Yesterday I would have laughed at myself for saying this but I now know the differences in the pistons and what makes the hypereutectics used by KB such a quality piston for a street motor over forged ones.



rellik eeb,
Part No: 6358.1094.2375.H - "B" H-Beam Rods / 6.358" Length / 1.094" Pin size / ARP 2000 bolts - Set of 8 - Price: $369.


That's them! WOW! Thank you so much. I owe you.
well, share! cause i would love to know why!
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  #15  
Old 03-07-2005, 11:23 PM
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Well, read all these tech articals for starters.

http://kb-silvolite.com/article.php
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Old 03-07-2005, 11:50 PM
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383 - welcome to the Mopar hobby. As a REALLY old fart, let me congratulate you on hangin' on to that Coronet. And, if you want to have a black engine bay, it's your car. As to the discussions on rods and pistons, I won't go there except to say building the short block as strong as you can afford surely can't hurt - gives you lots of latitude down the road when (not if) you want to make more power. Bolting on more horses down the road without worrying about internal strength is a lot easier and cheaper than a complete re-build. I think you're on track, do the research and build it right. That said, all of the folks here have got valuable experience to go with our strong opinions so don't let our opinions get in the way of your goals. Cheers
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Old 03-08-2005, 01:28 AM
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I'll let the rest of the regulars give advice on the V8, I'll just say be sure you keep all your parts and piece from your slant six driveline.
There may come a time when you're tired of racing and roaring around with your Grandpa's car, and may want to put it back to stock. Luckily, all the high performance parts bolt in and out, so swapping back would be easily done.
Normally I wouldnt mention this, but considering it's a family heirloom, I dont think you're gonna want to trash all the parts that your Grandpa used to drive around town with.
I know the slant six B bodies have been gone from the scrapyards for awhile, so be real careful with what you remove, you may have a heck of a time finding replacements if you ever want to switch it back.
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Old 03-12-2005, 11:55 AM
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Im not a fan of the Hyper Keith Black pistons. They will not take the abuse of a Forged piston. They are not ment to run NOS too, to much timing will melt them down in a hurry. For the same money a set of Probe Industries os Speed Pro's can be had for the same amount, they may be heavy, but they have proved there selfs again, and again. The engine will need balanced with any piston other than stock replacement, then should be checked there too. For little money more you can throw what ever abuse you want at it and should last... I had some problems with some KB 106's from a 360 once.
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Old 03-12-2005, 03:36 PM
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Nice to see the younger guys see the way and the light. Now for some enlightment. The stock Mopar rods are forged! They are so much better than those chinese made Eagle's it's not funny. The KB hyper-ejectic's will do just that when you add the N2O. Especially if you add too much like over a 50 shot and don't rely on the stock fuel pump for both.

Listen to the advice given you Grasshopper and when you can take the words and put them to your advantagge you will no longer roam the web looking for inner peace.
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Old 03-12-2005, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 383_Coronet 440
.... I'd much rather have these than forged pistons. Sounds crazy, Yesterday I would have laughed at myself for saying this but I now know the differences in the pistons and what makes the hypereutectics used by KB such a quality piston for a street motor over forged ones.



You probably won't feel this way after the top of the piston is stuck to the head, while the pin and skirt spin around still attached to the crank.

As foghorn leghorn would say:

.....I say, you're doing it all wrong boy.

The stock rods will take lots of abuse, (more than the pistons your buying)
Rods are one of the last upgrades on a mopar. Hyperutectics are fine for a mild street car, but not a great idea in a machine that will see some strip time with nos.
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Old 03-12-2005, 05:46 PM
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What can I say, I don't agree.
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Old 03-12-2005, 06:23 PM
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I wish I was 16 again.

I'm not trying to flame you here, but this is what discussion boards are for. For getting information. T
The internet is full of information, and some of it is even accurate.

It's fine to be well read, but the real world isn't in a book.

Here's a suggestion for you.

On the pistons:

Pick 10 machine shops who do performance work, and ask them which pistons they would use on a nitros motor.

On the rods:

1) go to a track and buy a pit pass, or go on a test and tune night. Most racers like to talk about thier cars. Find some mopar guys with street driven cars that run 12's or slower.

Ask whether they are using stock connecting rods or not. You won't find many that aren't

2)Pick any mopar board you want. (moparts in the race only forum, mopar style, fbo question answer. a bodies only) Tell them what hp you want to achieve, plus the nitrous, and ask how they would suggest building the motor. You will find maybe 1 guy in a 100 will say get a set of rods, and he is probably only saying that, because he is suggesting you stroke the motor, instead of keep it a 383.


The factory rods are high quality forged peices

Guys like 70 barracuda and rumblefish know what they are talking about. If I remember right 6 pakin(relik eeb) has built quite a few strip cars too.

The reputation that hypereutechtic pistons have earned for breaking in half, is a deserved one.

There's a reason why only one company makes and sells them, while the high end companies continue to make quality forged peices. Lighter and stonger.
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Old 03-12-2005, 06:54 PM
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The KB are preety good. But if you don't want to listen to people who have been building cars longer than your butt has been alive, you'll get what you deserve. And that may very well be a pile of broken junk.
Then, you'll have this one statement to remember;
"We told you so."
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Old 03-12-2005, 07:44 PM
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I've run Kb's in some dirt track engines over the years and the hold up great. But, they need to be set up with the correct ring gaps and clearances or they wont work. If your going to run nos, get forged psitons. They wont hold up to that kind of temps and cylinder pressures. If the rings ever butt ends, it will bust the tops off and if you run it too lean with a lot of timming, big hole in the center in a hurry. For a plain asperated engine only, I'm all for using them, but in a nos engine they wont last 5 passes, I'd guess. And this is from someone that has used them for years and knows other racers, even brand X , that have used them too.
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Old 03-12-2005, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 383_Coronet 440
What can I say, I don't agree.
You obviously know more than us. Why did you ask?

Go ahead, buy your chinese rods, and glass pistons. Get at least a 150 shot and run it all off that stockk fuel pump. Oh and don't worry bout that distributor, it will be just fine. Make sure you get one of those edelbrock carbs and some TTI headers!

I would'nt be talking too much smack to your Homda buddies just yet!
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:11 PM
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Well, I asked someone very knowledgable about these hypereutectic pistons. He's built cars most of his life from every possible shape form and fashion. Simply put he knows his stuff. Here's what he had to say, and I agree with him.


Quote:
Ok, here's what I'd tell them: there are guys in the thread that run KBs with no problems, and guys that hate them. The guys that HAVE them have more proof than the guys who simply SAY they will break. Simply put, at room temps, the forged are stronger than the hypers, but at elevated temps, it's the other way around. Ask the guys sayig the KBs are "glass pistons" for some proof to back up their claims, OTHER than math.

The most common piston found in production car engines, is constructed from a Eutectic alloy. The term Eutectic mean that the piston allow contains around 12.5% silicon. This is just about the point of total dissolved silicon saturation. With older piston designs which have conventional ring lands, there is little need to have any more than this simple, reliable material which has served the industry so well for so long. In fact all the worldwide passenger car engine manufactures we know of still use the 12.5 per cent alloy.

Hypereutectic alloy is pretty damn similar, but has a much higher degree of silicon in its makeup, something around the 16-18 per cent mark. What this actually achieves in the piston-manufacturing process is a high degree of free (undissolved) silicon in the end piston. The silicon/aluminium ration affect the metal's character. The higher silicon content in the Hypereutectic alloy lends itself to improved scuff resistance and, importantly, a relatively low expansion rate. The Hypereutectic alloy not only expands 15% less than a forged alloy, it insulates the skirts from combustion chamber heat. If the skirt stays cool piston expansion is drastically reduced. Running close clearances is beneficial to piston ring seal and ring life. A small short term HP improvement can be had by running additional piston clearance because friction is reduced.

With Hypereutectic pistons, the primary reason for having all of this free silicon is to reduce piston ring groove wear. This allows piston designers to move the top compression ring much farther up the side of the piston (where combustion temperatures are much hotter), and run much smaller, thinner piston ring lands (the metal section separating the ring grooves). Their main advantages being reduced chance of ring/grove welding and reduced piston ring grove wear. If higher piston strength is needed, then generally, a piston manufacturer will add more copper and nickel to the alloy to gain extra high temperature strength.

The only real disadvantage of a cast piston (in high output situations) is in the case of a piston failure, a cast items is more likely to shatter and damage the engine, as a whole, more than a forged piston. So, as i said, if you drop a valve or a bolt, a forged piston won't try to destroy the rest of the engine (but the engine's still ****ed..)

A big advantage with forged pistons is they generally result in a more ductile material, with the effect being the piston can take a higher level of detonation before failing. As far as I am concerned, this is not such a huge bonus as you engine should be tuned not to detonate in the first place. In extremely high rpm/high horsepower applications, the great strength of the forged piston can add reliability, with most builders recommending they be used once power levels rise past about 90hp per litre of engine capacity.

Silvolite actually likes to use hyper pistons in nitrous engines, as the material withstands heat and detonation better than forgings (though a poorly set up nitrous system can melt ANY piston). Designing a maximum performance nitrous engine is more of an exercise in heat management than it is in engine building.

Now, I did decide saturday that you guys were right about the rods. He backed that thought up today. I ordered a set of ARP's strongest rod bolts and I should be good to go with this setup.
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Old 03-15-2005, 01:12 PM
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Well, I'm not going to argue, but I have run these things for years and know them very well. I know others that have run them for years as well. I'm tellin one time, if you get the ring gap to tight when they expand it will pop the top off the pistons. THey require more ring gap than a stock or forged piston. And if you put it on the bottle, you will put a hole in one sooner than latter, they wont take that kind of abuse.
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwc43
if you get the ring gap to tight when they expand it will pop the top off the pistons. THey require more ring gap than a stock or forged piston.
If you gap any piston ring so that they butt togethor, I don't care what type of piston you have, damage is going to be done.
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Old 03-15-2005, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 383_Coronet 440
Well, I asked someone very knowledgable about these hypereutectic pistons. He's built cars most of his life from every possible shape form and fashion. Simply put he knows his stuff. Here's what he had to say, and I agree with him.
Now, I did decide saturday that you guys were right about the rods. He backed that thought up today. I ordered a set of ARP's strongest rod bolts and I should be good to go with this setup.
That was a very good, well writin response you have gotten there. Glad that theres someone else you can turn to incase of confusion.
The hyper-U's and stock rods with ARP bolts is an excellent choice. You can go far with this set up.
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Old 03-15-2005, 07:24 PM
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383_Coronet 440 383_Coronet 440 is offline
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I think I'm on the right track now.



EDIT: Oh yeah, and about a hole in the pistons using the bottle. I strongly believe that nothing under 100 shot will ever damage my pistons when set up correctly.
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