Lowbuck 360 build-up with parts on-hand

[Clead]

I'm gonna start tearing down the '76 truck 360 that I picked up to put into my '83 5th Ave. I'm currently not working, so economy is a factor in this (my first) rebuild. I'm looking to match or exceed E58 engine performance, just as a guideline. However, given that it's a 360, I'm looking retain some fuel economy. Gas is currently $1.05/liter here. . I'd like to keep the converter stock if possible, for that reason alone. These are the parts I have on hand: Edelbrock 1406 NIB, a few different TQs (Demonsizzler rebuild?), and a cast-iron Mbody 4bbl intake. I also have a clean pair of 974 heads with 1.88/1.60 valves, but I suspect the heads on the 360 are the same casting. On the chassis currently: MP Elec Ign kit, including the new recurved Dist, A999 (shortly getting a beefy rebuild), 2.76 8 1/4 rear-end, 2.5" single exhaust, and full police brakes/suspension.
So: cam suggestions? Will my eddy 1406 do the trick? Can I run a stock converter and build for REALLY low-end torque? Should I run #302 heads with my goal of good mileage and haul-ass grunt? I can get #302 cores for $80/pair, so it's an option. I know opinions are mixed on putting 318 heads on a 360, and I've read all the opinions. Thunderstruck swears by them , as do a couple other guys on Farley's board. I'm looking for just a fun car to school some Hondas etc. 240hp/300 ft lbs at 4000/3000 maybe.. is that realistic for a mild 360 on-the-cheap?
Thanks,
Duncan

[dwc43]

302's won't work there for a 318 and you'll kill the power. Put 2.02 valves in your stock heads and mill them .035 for a compression gain. Use a dual pattern cam like a 268 272* so that the exhuast side will breath better. Your exhuast is really going to kill this thing too. If you can pick up a set of 1 5/8 headers for an F body and wrap them. Use 2 1/2 pipes with an X pipe in the system and some good mufflers, like flowmasters. 240 is easy to get with a 360, we get over 400 and it's still streetable, and still using the stock cast iron intake. We could make much more if our rules would allow another intake.

[dwc43]

Oh, one other thing. The old A999 wont hold up long, so don't waste your time on a rebuild. Get an A727 to replace it with. TCI can build anything you need too. www.tciauto.com

[rumblefish360]

Hey Clead.

Run the Edel. for on the cheap w/ a open air cleaner. The T-Q has advantages, but might be a tad more in dollors to straighten out.

The intake is fine. Don't worry about the EGR valve. It closes on W.O.T.

Use the stock heads. Don't waste the money on the other heads. Use the money for a milling, nicer valves and a decent valve job. It's money well spent rather than just spent.
The smaller 318 chamber is what I believe Thunderstruck is after. It couldn't be the smaller valves and ports. Though it has better velocity down low, it'll run out of steam up top. Use the 42 cube advantage.

The stock cam can stay. The engine will make 240 HP easy.

Instead of spending money on the cam, spend it on headers and mufflers. Purchase your own pipe and clamp it for cheap or have a freind weld it for best results. (Or learn to weld) Use an H pipe at a min. The X is better.

This will get you passed 260 HP.

The 999 will hold.

Upgrade the ignition when possible. Chrysler Chrome box at a min.
Upgrade to 3.23 gears for better acceleration but, with the abilty to still get good mileage.
I went through the same thing on my 360 in a Dodge Magnum years ago.
Without headers and gear change (2.76 gears as well) and off the manifolds dual exhaust, I nailed down 20 mpg's.

[TK]

well..................if you want economy, get a 318, the choice is simple, higher velocity ports, smaller cubes, bigger rod ratio, and, for low HP builds like you are doing, the 318 will makes as much power.
and, ive put 318 heads on a 360, runs good till about 4500 (w/o porting) and you instantly have to burn premium, and thats even more expensive. (i definatly would not put the bottleneck 302's on a 360)

now, if you have your mindset on a 360, use the 360 heads. the stock 360 with a good ignition and carb will make more power than what you are looking for. the 302 heads will choke it off, for sure. if you have to have a after martket cam, the 252/252 comp cam gets good economy (been there, done that) and will make more torque than a split duration cam.
then, X pipe, headers, ect, ect, ect..................................

[dust]

I found some of good information on low buck 360 build up from car craft's site
if the link does not work, search for "battle of titans" on CC's site.
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...ope/index.html

[rumblefish360]

Hey Clead. Does the link fall into your wallet range? I remember thatwrite up when it came out. Pretty good actually.
I did a few real low buck to almost no buck builds. Stock engine can perform well with 2bbl. cams and minor bolt ons. Cheapest one I did was swap meet factory 4bbl T-Q intake and carb ($50) headers ($50), cam (new @ $100) and 15 dollor mufflers. (LOL) Worked well.

[LA360Dart]

Hi Clead;

E58'ing any 360 should be no problem. Cam use the 340 cam if you have or similar type grind. Keep duration under 220 at .050. This will help with cylinder pressure. The 1406 is 600cfm will work but T quad would be better on fuel economy and better on HP being ~ 800cfm. The intake would be ok. The heads 302's might be small, but if goal is torque over HP with the 2.76's in the differential then use them. The heads won't hurt torque production at all, top end HP would suffer but if most of the time your going to just drive it should be just fine. A999 is built for 318/360 in late model cars and at modest power level will work fine if you were building a 400hp 360 you might need to upgrade with some good hardware. Are you just checking short block bolting the top end and going?

Denny

[TK]

using a 340 cammed 360 and 302 heads would be counter productive, the 360 needs teh bigger ports to perform. and, for economy, the 340 cam is too big.

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by dodgetkboy78

using a 340 cammed 360 and 302 heads would be counter productive, the 360 needs teh bigger ports to perform. and, for economy, the 340 cam is too big.

I can agree with most of that.

[TK]

what can you not agree with?

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by dodgetkboy78

what can you not agree with?

Well, the stock 340 cam aint that hot, so I don't millage will suffer too much from that. Depends on hte right foot though.

[TK]

i never could get one to get good gas mileage. the timing is funky, not enough lift for the duration, something. (114center?)
comp cam 252or260 (same duration on both sides) work the best for performance/economy (for me)

[LA360Dart]

Hi all;

The 360 has a longer stroke and builds torque at a lower RPM. The 340 needs to PRM more to make the same torque given the same cam, carb and manifold sizes. If on a budget the 340 or similar type of cam will be docile enough in a 360 to have a good idle and decent power. Yes you might be out of power by 5000 rpm but just shift it back into power band, 5.0L rustangs that are stock run out of HP by ~5500 RPM. The smaller heads will only hurt power on top end, not torque at low RPM and the car has 2.76 rear gears not 3.55's and a stock torque converter. Let the engines torque move the mass you might not need to RPM the engine to go fast. On a budget you must compromise to what you can afford in a perfect world ported edelbrock heads big manfolds carb high stall converter better gears stickier tires you can make an 360 fly but if money is tight, try to build for torque and work with what converter you have, weight of car, and gear ratio you'll be happier and have a car that is more drivable....

Denny
P.S. In my opinion, 360 are just different enough from 340's that what works for one doesn't work with the other always.

[Clead]

Originally Posted by LA360Dart

On a budget you must compromise to what you can afford in a perfect world ported edelbrock heads big manfolds carb high stall converter better gears stickier tires you can make an 360 fly but if money is tight, try to build for torque and work with what converter you have, weight of car, and gear ratio you'll be happier and have a car that is more drivable....

Denny

This is what I need! Like I said, this is my unemployment project, so $$ is tight. I do plan on freshening up the short block with rings and whatever else is needed. I live in a condo with a little white-line parking stall, so I can't just yank the engine if the bottom end turns out to be bad. The 360's out on a stand right now, so now's as good a time as any to do the rings, check the bearings etc. In my budget, I do plan on buying: cam, lifters, rebuild kit (gaskets,rings,plugs etc.), and any machine work that needs doing. I figure about $800 CDN. Sound about right? It's a 3800# car with a stock converter and 2.76 gears. I have no misconceptions about it turning into a 13 sec. car. I just wanna surprise some ricers, and enjoy the occasional smoke show. I do also have some TQs I could use, one SB and one BB. Seriously in need of a rebuild though. Paging Demonsizzler! .
Thanks for all the input guys. Just what I was looking for.
Duncan

[rumblefish360]

So Clead, whatcha got on hand?

[TK]

Originally Posted by rumblefish360

So Clead, whatcha got on hand?

good question.
oh, another one, has anyone ever drove a 360 with small port heads?

[Clead]

Thunderstruck had a 360 Diplomat with #302 heads. He's the one who suggested it to me over on Farley's Diplomat Forum. Another Farley's member has done it as well, with good results.
Parts I have on hand are:
Edelbrock 1406 NIB, a few different TQs (Demonsizzler rebuild?), and a cast-iron Mbody 4bbl intake. I also have a clean pair of 974 heads with 1.88/1.60 valves, but I suspect the heads on the 360 are the same casting. On the chassis currently: MP Elec Ign kit, including the new recurved Dist, A999 (shortly getting a beefy rebuild), 2.76 8 1/4 rear-end, 2.5" single exhaust, and full police brakes/suspension.

[rumblefish360]

I would;

Sell the 1406 and use the money to rebuild the T-Q. The larger one.
Use it on the factory intake. Use a cheap air cleaner. Edel. makes one that looks line a triangle thats inexpensive.

Keep the heads stock. A clean up and back cut and valve job would be great if it's in the wallet.

Cam suggestions. The 2.76 ratio is the hold back here as well as the exhaust manifolds. Here I recomend a Comp cam 265DEH with dual exhaust. This cam is designed to be used with exhaust manifolds. If you swap out gear ratios to something higher than 3.23's, the 275 DEH will work great.

Dual exhaust @ 2-1/2 max.

[TK]

again, cam too big for fuel economy

[rumblefish360]

With the second choice cam, probably. The first cam, no, he'll do fine for the MPG category. The duration @ .050 is still low.
The 275DEH has a @ .050 of 219/235. Still small enuff for decent mileage with the right componets. Large enuff for a nice power curve for the street using limited performance components.
Lift is kept small for use of stock heads @ .462 / .482
This cam has the abilty to work with a stock converter, though a higher stall would produce better results. Higher gear ratio with this cam would prove a nice performance investment.

[TK]

im still confused here, he has 2.76 gears. that is like 2000rpm=60mph. the cams you are suggesting are making torque at more like 3000-3500 (with the right timing, induction, ect.
so, there is a point he has to decide. a motor to make peak torque at around 2000 will be perfectly smooth, and not much more powerfull than stock (but be within his asking at first) would be a 302 headed 360, but, the small port heads lose they're poop at about 4500 (been there done that), so, thats all fine and dandy. the cams you are giving him are made to pull past 5000, and not start untill 2000 (im talking well in the power band here, not what they SAY its good for) and thats no good for economy with the gears he has, or the small port heads. so, basically, HE needs to decide if in fact eh is going to use the small port heads, and what he want to lean towards, fuel economy extreme, or a split between performance and economy, or more towards performance and screw fuel economy.
i still would not use the small port heads, unless you want a farm truck motor

[TK]

and, one more thing, split duration is not for fuel economy, it is for performance, if he is going the economy route, or a hard puller (for a truck, say) it is better to use the same on both sides (i think you have brought this up before rumble)

[Clead]

Originally Posted by dodgetkboy78

....needs to decide if in fact eh is going to use the small port heads, and what he want to lean towards, fuel economy extreme, or a split between performance and economy, or more towards performance and screw fuel economy.

I'm thinking I'd like to go middle-of-the-road as far as the economy/power goes. Here's my thinking: it's a 360 and I don't want to handicap it. BUT, I'm hoping to keep the mileage to 14 or so around town, 18-20 highway. So there ya go. Give me the most 1500-4500 power and torque I can get, so I can keep my stock converter. I do have a 1985 A999, so my 1st gear is 2.74 as opposed to the earlier 2.45, so I have a tiny bit better situation on takeoff than some of you may have thought.
Once again, thanks for all the help!

[rumblefish360]

Not so on the first cam. Second cam yes. And I did make the sugestion or say if you go to a numericly higher ratio.....

Cam suggestions. The 2.76 ratio is the hold back here as well as the exhaust manifolds. Here I recomend a Comp cam 265DEH with dual exhaust. This cam is designed to be used with exhaust manifolds. If you swap out gear ratios to something higher than 3.23's, the 275 DEH will work great.

"something higher than 3.23's," would be 3.55's and a stock or so dia. tire or 3.91 and add 1-1/2 in tire height. It'll work because of the profile of the cam and how it's spread out unlike , say, a cam from Cam Motion.
Tire height has a lot to do with it. Stock 5th aves....there tire s aren't tall , say next to a ramcharger, which would have gotten a diffrent cam. Then theres a small tired Dart....Which can tolorate a larger cam.
The split duration cams here have extended exhaust durations for use with exhaust manifolds.
Split pattern cams have the rep you think they do for a reason. But there not only used for that.
By extending the exhaust duration, you add a few RPM. Typicaly, split pattern cams add 500 or so RPM. Remember, if you add somewhere, you take away somewhere. Low end torque.

[rumblefish360]

Clead, re-take a look at the first suggestion and I remake one, the 255DEH Power....1200 - 5500

[rumblefish360]

Originally Posted by dodgetkboy78

and, one more thing, split duration is not for fuel economy, it is for performance, if he is going the economy route, or a hard puller (for a truck, say) it is better to use the same on both sides (i think you have brought this up before rumble)

It can be used to enhance fuel economy. If a cam adds power without adversly changing the RPM band much, you can get more mileage from the added power. Less throttle is the result.
Single pattern cams are fine for a well balanced head.
Problem here is recomending a cam without the full idea of what someone wants.

Example of cams.
Use a desk top dyno for comparision only..
Log in the flow numbers for the Edel. RPM heads from Edel.'s site. Make it a 10-1 360 engine with a daul plane and 750 carb, exhaust large tube no mufflers.
(Hey, why not...)
Now in put the Edel. cam
Now run around the web and select similar cams. See what you get.
No do it again with single pattern cams. see what you get.
A lot of headache on cam research and you found that many of the cams you ran through make similar power.
Now go back and do the same with the programs default selection of stock heads, pocket ported heads.
Tell me what you see.
Split vs. single pattern cams. Not a whole lotta difference huh?
Then again, it also depends on the cam.
Read the opening pages of...hummm, comp cams catolog about cams. Cranes pages as well. There on the web.
It gets pretty hairy huh?
All those different cams for different things. These guys live and breath cams for the specific purposes. That means hundreds of ramp rates, curves, durations, lifts, centerlines....

[dodger1]

Clead, just found a series in Mopar Muscle's website - Project Cars - on a Diplomat they built up for a Nevada open road event. Sounds pretty close to your (intended) package, same gears, 360, built A999 etc. Lots of details including dyno ##s Thought I'd pass it on in case you hadn't seen it.

[Clead]

Originally Posted by dodger1

Clead, just found a series in Mopar Muscle's website - Project Cars - on a Diplomat they built up for a Nevada open road event. Sounds pretty close to your (intended) package, same gears, 360, built A999 etc. Lots of details including dyno ##s Thought I'd pass it on in case you hadn't seen it.

That's a great idea dodger1! And I have pretty good access to the details. On our M-body msg-board, Marko R and the current owner of the Stealth Bomber are currently members . It's slightly racier than I was looking for, but hey, it's a proven combo right? I may talk to Marko and see what aspects of their package could be scaled back a bit. The guy who owns it now recently blew away his boss' late-model Crapvette with the Stealth Bomber! That's Pentastar power .
Thanks to everyone,
Duncan

[Eggman]

My 360 has a Howards max efficiency camshaft.It is 212/216 duration447/447 lift on a 112 degree centerline.This cam doesn't have any lope but is a bear down low.I was going to swap in a comp XE268H but the only gain would have been noise.