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  #1  
Old 07-07-2005, 01:34 PM
68dchargerrpm 68dchargerrpm is offline
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rolleyes 383 loud clattering noise

Guys, its been a while, but i always had quality responses from you. Im driving along and come to a red light. While at the light the motor starts to sputter and ger rough, then i hear a clattering noise, that increases as i beine to turn around and head back home (2miles away). As i speed up to my max of about 35, the clattering gets really bad, im alsmot home now. I pull into the garage and sut her off, let her cool. I pull driver side valve cover. I notice alot of play between the rockrs and valeve stems so i adjust. Start, same deal. I then check header bolts, some are pretty loose, so i tighten. Nope still same deal. I pull coil wire and turn her over, Sounds ok, not fast enough to hear clicking noise. I then fire her again ( all less then 5 seconds). Sure enought the clateering is there, and i notice Zero oil pressure. Now im thinking something with the oil filter, which was changed about 100 miles ago, or the pump itslelf. The filter look ok from the outside, but are there any distince ways to see if it clogged. Also, how hard is it to remover and replace the oil pump with only a jack and basic toos. Rachet, etc. No air tools. It seems tight down there, and im quessing the power steering needs to come out. My final thoguht is the hydraulic lifters are dry, and im hearing the tapping as there is no pressure built up in them. I adjusted anyway as there was as much as 1/8 of in inch play between the valves and the rockers when i pus the pushrods back into the lifters. I figure zero lash at any point is the goal right?

Thank you
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  #2  
Old 07-07-2005, 07:08 PM
benno318 benno318 is offline
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if the clattering you talk of sounds like loose tappet clearances, you may be right about the lifters bleeding down. the cause of this needs to be found. what is the condition and history of the engine? has it been rebuilt? was it sludgy internally and someone added oil flush? if this is the case, the pickup may be blocked. let us know a little more about the 383 and we may be able to pinpoint it better for you. ben simpson
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  #3  
Old 07-07-2005, 08:39 PM
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madmax4073 madmax4073 is offline
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The first thing to do is check the oil pressure. If you don't have a gauge install one. The worst case senario is you have spun a bearing on the crank. When you had the valve covers of was oil reaching the rockers?
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Old 07-08-2005, 01:15 AM
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If the oil filter was just replaced 100 miles ago and is clogged you have a major problem. I doubt that is your problem. You mentioned no oil pressure. That will deffinetly cause the lifters to bleed down. I hate to say it but if you drove it 2 miles with no oil pressure you probably destroyed the engine or at least cut it's life down drastically.

First thing to do is verify you have plenty of oil in it.

I've also seen many a clogged pickup screen from the stock top plastic timing gear stripping. Alot of guys change the timing set without even thinking about where all that garbage went. Of course it gets sucked right up in the oil pump screen.

The oil pump bolts on externally on a big block and in the Charger body it shouldn't be too bad to change. Possibly even just a broken relief spring in the pump. I'd pull the spring first and have a look at it.

Remember this. You cranked down your rocker arms. When you get the oil pressure problem solved the lifters will pump back up and the rockers will be too tight. Back them off to where they were or you could end up with a bunch of bent valves. That wouldn't be cool at all.
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  #5  
Old 07-08-2005, 02:09 AM
68dchargerrpm 68dchargerrpm is offline
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Thank you gentelman for the advice. The motor itself was rebuilt 6 years ago, but i only put on maybe 2 or 3000 miles a year. It is just a weekend cruiser, but yeah i get on it as it was meant to be. As for as driving with out pressure for 2miles, well i hope there was enough of a film to lubricate the top half of the motor for that time period, as i know the bottom half is lubricated vai the splash effect. When i adjusted the rockers, which i will back off as per you advice ( and please explain the best way to readjust, maybe while running?) there was some scoring of the rocker and where it meets the valve, however they may be normal wear, as the cam does have a lift of 480 on the intake and 495 on the exhaust, with a duration of 238 intake and 246 exhaust @.050. I did not see if oil was actually getting to the top end while running as i feard it getting all over the place, and not to mention, when i noticed no oil pressure on a gague that has been perfect for years (13 since the first motor rebuild), i figured it was only bad to do so. Anyway, after adjuting the rockers and tighning thfore headers, i ran it twice for under 5 seconds. Man what a noise, but agian nothing when just cranking which makes me thing its the bleed out lifters clattering all over the place, since there was a ton of clearance.

How do i perform the sring test? How many bolt hold the pump in place, and if it is the stock one, should i uprgrade it from a durability standpoint, as pressure wise it was good. up to 55psi when cruisng, and about mid 20s at idle. What pump do you reccomend that does not require aditonal parts, and is a straight replacement part? I mean if the srping you speak of is in fact bad, am i not better off putting the cost of the sprinf into a new pump anyway?

Thank you agian for all your great insight.
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  #6  
Old 07-08-2005, 02:41 AM
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sounds l;ike a spun main bearing.
So you might want to pull the pan! plus, there is no dipper effect on it, if the oil pump aint pumpin, it aint oilin!
I would tear the motor down!
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  #7  
Old 07-08-2005, 07:24 AM
Dart14 Dart14 is offline
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I think racintracy may have hit it mentioning the plastic coating from the timing gears clogging the oil pickup. Not uncommon. Pull the pan and look for the debris on the screen and in the pan. I would pull a bearing cap or two and check for discoloration. Oil pump should be an easy change on big block B body. Also, I remember buying a HP spring from Mopar performance years ago that gave some extra pressure. Was like $2 at the time. Good luck
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  #8  
Old 07-08-2005, 07:44 AM
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another simple thing to check is the oil pump drive. pull the oil pump and dist. and pull it through the top. I.ve seen the factory ones break the tip off after a rebuild especially when the pump was upgraded to a hv or hp.
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  #9  
Old 07-08-2005, 01:33 PM
68dchargerrpm 68dchargerrpm is offline
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OK lets all hope it just a pump issue and not a spun bearing. The motor was running fine at the stop light and then got rough and lumpy as the lifters bleed out, and then loud as they were pumped dry and those clearences between the valves and rockers got large, larger enough to make that horrible noise. This is my theory. I think RTV was use on the timing cover, so that ceetainly could have cloged the screen as you mentioned. I guess all i need to do is rmove the sterring linkage, a challanged possibly due to the large nuts and me not having the sockets to fit them. As for the pump, i see it from the underside. Looks like i may not have to remove the powe sterring pump, but well see. It is a pain in the ass to get back in the question. Any other things i need to look out for while doing either of these operations? The only time this sort of work has been done is when the motor was out for a rebuild.
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  #10  
Old 07-13-2005, 05:45 AM
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ttraut@unlockit ttraut@unlockit is offline
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Default I did it...

I took off my oil pump on a 383 69 RR. I know we're talking different bodies, but it was pretty easy. I used a ratchet and wrench. I don't remember jacking the engine up so I'm thinking that I didn't.

I WOULD also drop the pan as others are mentioning here to see 1) what's in the pan, and 2) what it looks like in the bottom of your engine. I don't know if you can actually see a spun bearing from that viewpoint but.... I know it's a pain and you have to probably remove the steering link, but I'd want to check the pickup and the bottom of the pan.

(Regarding the plastic crap, would someone rebuild a motor using the single roller stock timing chain? Do other timing chains have that plastic coating on? And would the timing chain release that much crap after only 18K miles?)

Before you replace your oil pump, you may want to remove the distributor and manually crank the oil pump with a long rod attached to your electric drill (search for other postings to see how to do that). The drill should send oil up to your rocker arms where you can see it. If it doesn't, it MAY be the oil pump.

By the way, I ran my 383 for about three miles without oil pressure; replaced the oil pump (and bought a mechanical gauge!!) and ran the car for a couple more years until a slipped timing chain played havoc with the push rods....

Terry
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  #11  
Old 07-13-2005, 05:55 AM
dirttrackracer dirttrackracer is offline
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I had a FRAM oil filter that failed on the inside and I would be driving down the road and loose all oil pressure. It only had a few hundred miles on it at the time. I replaced it and was lucky to not have any serious engine damage.Needless to say I no longer use Fram or any filter made by them.
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  #12  
Old 07-13-2005, 07:56 AM
custom880 custom880 is offline
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If the motor was rebuilt and you have a decent cam and such I am sure the original timing chain was replaced also. I don't think your screen is plugged. I think your oil pump took a dump. The "clattering" would be lifters and tappets. If you had a spun bearing the noise would be a deep knock or clunk or even a squeal. Nope clattering is a classic lifter noise. If you ran the motor with little or no oil pressure you need to check things out. I am certain that even if you did not spin a bearing you certainly took many miles off them. If it were me I would pull as much of the engine apart as I could. Take the intake off, rockers, fan, tming chain cover, oil pump, lifters, cam. All of this should be able to be done with the engine in the car (maybe not the cam). Inspect everything. Drain the oil into a very clean pan (light colored if possible) and look for metal deposits. The 383 is a forgiving motor and you might get lucky. If there is little damage you might be able to et away with a cheap rebuild. New cam, lifters, timing chain, and a high volume oil pump.
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  #13  
Old 07-13-2005, 09:08 AM
Tarrbabe Tarrbabe is offline
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Default Fram oil filters??????

I use to use them till I found out Chrysler will void your warranty for it.

On the engine problem........... Don't take short cuts unless your motor is not worth your time. Do it once and do it right.
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  #14  
Old 07-13-2005, 10:37 AM
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Biggrin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarrbabe
I use to use them till I found out Chrysler will void your warranty for it.
That is quite a statement. I have heard negative reports about Fram filters, but then there are those who swear by them. The fact that they are still in business means that they have a viable product on the market.

Back to your statement, was that word of mouth from a service department or did you read it in Chrysler literature?
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Old 07-13-2005, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarrbabe
I use to use them till I found out Chrysler will void your warranty for it.

If this is a true statement, Id like to see the Chrysler litterature that states it, I used to use Fram filters on my 99 Intrepid when it was under warranty and never did I have any problems with getting warranty work done at the dealer.
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  #16  
Old 07-13-2005, 06:29 PM
Tarrbabe Tarrbabe is offline
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Red face Sorry if I jumped the gun.......

I went back to my source on that statement to make sure.
I didn't get it totally right! SORRY!!!
What he had told me was that Chrysler will void your warranty if you have a diesel engine and use the Fram Filters.
I know this is a different statement, but it amounts to the same thing to me. There are a lot better filters out there even though I used them for 20 years.
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  #17  
Old 07-15-2005, 04:18 PM
68dchargerrpm 68dchargerrpm is offline
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I did replace the stock chain with a double roller when i did the cam. I had some other issues to tend to, and have yet to reallt get dirty with this project. From what im readin, it is possible to run the motor witout pressure, allbeit no good and shortening its life, and still having something to work with. After all it was wamred and oil does not simply run dry as soon as pressure is lost. I hope there was enough of a filmt o save the bottom end. AS for the top half, the rokers have a pretty noticable scoring makr where they meet the valves, but then agian after 20k and a pretty high lifet cam 480/495, there is bound to be more where then stock, and certainly less thes if they were roller tips ( regret not getting those). When i pull the pump, if i find a broken spring, should i just replace it, or in your opinions, just buy a new pump say a mellineg M63HV. I dont need more pressure, but volums is good. Oh and what exaclty do i use to prime the motor,. I know what your saying, and of coarse i have adrill, but what kind of harware do i need? Sahft length, what is the end. Can i buy this somewhere, like pep poys, autozone. They must sell prmiers, no?

Thanks again
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  #18  
Old 07-15-2005, 06:00 PM
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Default Samething here

I'm glad I read this thread. My 400 (451 now) did the same thing. Total loss of oil pressure at idle. (I was at the drag strip when it happened. If it happened at high rpm I would be pulling the motor as we speak) The car only drove at idle for about 100 ft under low/no oil pressure. I have solid lifters so the noise was not as noticable. Only a little rocker chatter. So far the oil looks good and the filter looks good with little to no oil getting to the valvecovers. I will be pulling the pan and pump tomorrow. The engine has a dual roller chain and about 60 runs on the 451 build. The engine appears to run ok just starving for oil.

I will forward any news. Good Luck with your oil pump (or broken pump I hope) 68DChargerRPM!
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Old 07-15-2005, 07:32 PM
dart joe dart joe is offline
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CudaDrag, did this just happen, i've got about 70+ runs on mine, let us know what you find.
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  #20  
Old 08-24-2005, 01:29 AM
68dchargerrpm 68dchargerrpm is offline
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Default thank you all

To all thos that replied and shared their valuabel insight........THANK YOU. After a long delay due to circumstances out of my control, the charger is finally up and runnig. The oil pump did in fact take a dump. I got me a standard volume anbd pressure seal power peice that, once filled, was supplying 40 psi upon start in roughly 20 seconds. It was a joy to my ears to hear that rocker clatter nearly completly subside. I guess i could make some adjustments, but i left some clearance so as to not bend a valve do to the fact i was stupid enough to adjust them after the lifters bleed out. I did my best to readjust when springs were fully expanded and got close to, but not right at zero lash. As the lfters filled with oil the sound become 95 percent less, and let me tell you the big relief that was. Thanks again to all, and as odd as it seemed, i just knew it had to be the pump after i ran all scenarios and the probabilities through my head. But you guys gave me confidence, Much Appreciated.

Oh and i did check the spring in the pump first, and reassembled only to have the same problem, ran it about 5 seconds and nothing. Hence the new pump. Chnaged the lower radiator hose too, as it was easy to access at that point.
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  #21  
Old 08-24-2005, 04:50 AM
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Good to hear it...

And you're right... sometimes you just need to ask someone to see if they back up your thoughts or come up with something you haven't considered.

We're here to help.
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  #22  
Old 08-25-2005, 05:19 PM
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Back to the Fram warranty question. It is illegal here in the states to void a warranty for using another manufactureres oil filter. If that was a fact, Mopar would have to GIVE you the correct filter at any oil change within warranty. This is from the back of a, you guessed it, Fram catalog.
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  #23  
Old 08-25-2005, 05:45 PM
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You could sure get contentious if that's the law!

For instance, a manufacturer might specify a filter with some specific capacity, a capacity found to be required after thousands of hours of dyno testing.

What if the aftermarket filter doesn't live up to that?
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Old 08-31-2005, 04:02 PM
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exactly ,
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Old 08-31-2005, 06:09 PM
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Biggrin

Then, if an engine failure occurred because of a filter that did not meet Mopar specs,......................guess what, the warranty is void.
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  #26  
Old 08-31-2005, 10:42 PM
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They couldnt sell it as a replacement filter for that app. it meets the standards of the OEM filter, probably made by FRAM anyway.
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