Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide!



Go Back   Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide! > Technical Forums > Performance Talk

Click here to search for Mopar cars and parts for sale.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-17-2005, 08:48 PM
Ray Bell's Avatar
Ray Bell Ray Bell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Dalveen, Queensland
Posts: 3,236
Default Is all 'Performance' quarter mile?

You have to accept here that I'm an Australian with a huge background in road racing...

Drag racing just never appealed to me, though I've read a lot about it and been to a couple of events.

So I hope everyone understands that I don't quite get the point of every discussion being aimed at quarter mile times and off-the-line performance.

There's much more, I believe, to the performance equation than this. Not only in engines and transmissions and rear ends, but in car setups and braking and driveability.

The fact that Ben (benno318) is working to build up a '64 Dodge to go road racing has led me here as we pursue information and learn more about these things.

The car has given us object lessons. Virtually every time we've opened a conversation about it, we've got the reply, "Why don't you use a big block instead of the 318?"... well, it's a matter of weight and availability and things like that. The fact that all the power the car has will have to go through 6" radial tyres is also a factor.

So the next thing is, "You can stroke it to 4" and get a lot more cubes..."... yeah, you'd think that, but the rules don't allow any increase in the stroke, only the bore.

And so it goes on. We can't fit disc brakes so we have to use the 11" x 3" drums that were an option on that model. So we'll have to learn how to get the most out of them, the boy will be leaning on them pretty hard when he races at Queensland Raceway, or if he gets to run at the Gold Coast Indy track or when he runs at the legendary Bathurst circuit.

It opens up equations that simply don't seem to get a look in on this forum. I'm a bit disappointed, really, that the broadness of thought just doesn't seem to be here...
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-18-2005, 12:51 AM
ehostler's Avatar
ehostler ehostler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Annandale, VA
Age: 57
Posts: 15,212
Default

Well, here in the US, it tends to either be drag race or circle track. There is some road racing; however, it is not as popular as the other two.

The reasoning has to do with the cost of real estate. There are more 1/8 mile and 1/4 mile tracks than circle tracks, due to the cost and amount of land required. Circle track tends to pass that on to the racer and therefore is not cheap. Road racing is coordinated through the State and county that the race is going to be in, as it is done on public roads and highways. Permit fees for this are rather expensive and again that is passed to the teams.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-18-2005, 05:00 AM
Ray Bell's Avatar
Ray Bell Ray Bell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Dalveen, Queensland
Posts: 3,236
Default

Like I said, I have a huge background in road racing... and that includes keeping in touch with American road racing.

When Michael Argetsinger sent me a video about the history of Elkhart Lake, that explained that road racing on public roads in America ended about 1955. From that time on it was only the odd airstrip/airport or specific racing circuit.

There's many of them, in fact. Bridgehampton, Riverside, Elkhart Lake, Watkins Glen, Rattlesnake Raceway, Mid-Ohio, Blackhawk Farms, Grattan Raceway, Mid-America Raceway, Gateway International, Memphis Motorsport Park, Pocono Raceway, Nelson Ledges, Summit Point, Heartland Park, Phoenix Internaional, Morosso Motor Sport Park, Route 66 Raceway, TAMU, Virginia Int Raceway, North Hollywood, Roebling Road, Gingerman, Daytona Speedway (road course inside the speedway), Cumberland, Dunkirk, Lanier, Laguna Seca, Marlboro, Oswego, Rockingham, Sears Point, Thompson, Weedsport are among them... I'm not sure how many more there are or have been. Most of these are from a list Michael sent me telling me the circuits he's either raced at or tested at or been to... and most of them he's raced at.

So there's plenty of road racing in America. SCCA and others sanction events, there is a multitude of different classes in which people can compete and plenty of variety among them.

That said, there are a couple of standout road circuits where public streets have once again become the playground of road racers... Long Beach, Detroit for a while, the Belle Isle circuit in Detroit too. But mostly they're circuits carved out on private land that is, as you say, none too inexpensive. Though it might not have been so bad back when they were built, in some cases.

Here in Australia there are about 14 or 15 circuits plus four road courses that are getting once-a-year use.

I don't know how many drag strips there are, but there is plenty of 1/4 mile ovals too. We have a bit of it all. Just like you... but the leaning is the other way.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-18-2005, 08:19 AM
DanL's Avatar
DanL DanL is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Donut Center, CO
Age: 67
Posts: 1,815
Default

I think it has more to do with lifestyles and commonly-available technology in the different regions of the world.

For example, for years, Europe has been building small, high-revving, low-powered (relatively speaking) cars for the narrow, winding roads there. Sports cars tend to be powered by 4 or 6 cylinder engines that might make lots of HP, but need to rev high to get it.

In the U.S., we have been building large cars, with large engines which produce big torque numbers, because of the more open roads we have here.

I've never been to Australia, and don't know what sort of autos you folks have been driving, but there's certainly no denying the European (read: British) influence down there.

I think the small, high-revving cars lead to a natural tendency to favor F1 style and road racing courses, while the cheap availability of large displacement, torque monster engines has pushed the U.S. toward the quarter-mile and circle track type of racing.

That said, there are exceptions to any rule and there definitely is a contingent of SCCA and other road-race style fans here. NASCAR most certainly is not drag-racing, although the engines are still relatively low-revving, high torque producers, at least in comparison to F1 and Indy Car engines. NASCAR is also not generally viewed by most as road racing. But, I still think the big differences are rooted in the types of cars and drivelines available locally, which means road racing doesn't enjoy as big a fan base here as it does in other countires.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-18-2005, 08:27 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: shelbyville,tn,USA
Posts: 2,880
Default

Ray, I appreciate your comments---and understand your feelings. The US has always been different from the rest of the world in its appreciation of road racing. I think its due to the fact that drag racing and circle track racing both got their start here in the US.

Prior to WWII, the only four wheel racing was open wheel, high $, speciality race cars(like Indy cars). There was some high speed, dry lakes racing on the west coast and beach racing in Florida but it was primarily high $ racing not available to the average citizen. Said another way---racing was considered a "rich man's" sport.

WWII changed all that. Soldiers came back from war looking for something to keep "excitement" in their lives. Afterall, they had fought, bled and died fighting the Germans and Japs---they deserved it and some crazy law against it wasn't going to stop them. Racing became it. But, there was a difference, "road racing" was considered "upper crust" or " a rich man's sport"(like prior to the war). Drag racing was a type of racing that everone could participate in, was inexpensive(in relation to road racing) and concentrated on engine improvements. And drag racing could be done on the streets---often illegally. Stock car racing started because moonshine runners wanted to show their skills to the public(on Sundays) and would meet in a field somewhere to race around in circles. Law enforcement encouraged this because it kept "whisky runners" off the street at least one day a week. While the engine was important, handling was as important.

So that is how it has evolved in the US. Drag racing and Stock car racing has become the racing " of the common man". Sure there is road racing in the US---and Indy type racing as well. But they are still considered "rich man's racing" and not followed extensively. Rightly or wrongly, that's how I see it.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-18-2005, 08:29 AM
Ray Bell's Avatar
Ray Bell Ray Bell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Dalveen, Queensland
Posts: 3,236
Default

Frankly I wouldn't be surprised to find that the USA has the biggest 'fan base' for road racing outside of maybe Italy and Germany...

When you consider the amount of road racing that's going on there, the numbers that turn out for major events and the fact that many won't travel right across the country even for a major event (simply because, like here, it's 3000 miles!) whereas in European countries you only have to go a few hundred.

So there might be bigger crowds at individual events in Europe (like the 300,000+ who used to get to the German GP in the sixties and seventies, for instance), but most of them only had to travel a relatively short distance to get there.

There is no denying that the greater part of the crowd at the USGP is American, so with 120,000 at Indy for that event there'd be maybe 85,000 or so Americans. And the same applies to when it used to be at Watkins Glen, or Long Beach.

The 'fans' are there, I believe, simply because you do have an automotive culture and you have a lot of people.

But there's more accessability to drags... more coverage of NASCAR... more speedway happening...

We have V8s here too. And they go road racing, much in the same way as your Trans-Am series saw road racing of V8-powered sedans. You also had Formula 5000 racing as we did.

Now there's something that was worth watching!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-18-2005, 08:34 AM
Scatman 340's Avatar
Scatman 340 Scatman 340 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Watertown, Wisconsin
Age: 68
Posts: 126
Default

Australia! Cool! I was there in 1976. I was in Brisbane in fact. Had a great time! Though I wouldn`t want to go back. I`ve been watching too many nature shows, and you have too many things down there that will kill you. Like those funnel web spiders, YIKES!

As far as the way we are about performance. From my standpoint, the quarter mile expresses brute force and horsepower. Or, how much "power" do I have "right now". Keep in mind this is just my interpretation on the facination with drag racing and 1/4 mile performance.

Rock`
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-18-2005, 09:19 AM
NZ 440R/T's Avatar
NZ 440R/T NZ 440R/T is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Age: 41
Posts: 4,848
I think you'll find another reason why it is so big here is with Forums like this a huge majority of members are muscle car fans.

Back in the era of muscle and pony that was the name of the game - straight line. My Challenger would fall flat on it's face if it raced a 1.8L Honda around bends but it wasn't designed for such use. Big engine, big chasis set up, big power (Torque) for straight line performance against GM and Ford.


If you want flat out cornering by an Rallye car.
If you want brute hp buy a big block MoPar....


Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-18-2005, 01:33 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: shelbyville,tn,USA
Posts: 2,880
Default

Ray, I wouldn't disagree that road racing in the US has a large fan base----its just in relation to drag and stock car racing, the % is rather small. In addition to the televised Nascar and NHRA races, you have hundreds of drag strips and over a thousand oval tracks operating weekly. Those weekly, local tracks creates the fan base.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-18-2005, 02:29 PM
DanL's Avatar
DanL DanL is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Donut Center, CO
Age: 67
Posts: 1,815
Default

My experience with road racing is very limited; in fact, if I were to count all the road races I've been to, I could do it on one hand, and have 3 fingers and a thumb left over. That one race was the Denver Grand Prix in the early 90s, a race through the streets in downtown Denver, Colorado. My son and I had seats close to the track, and we could see all of about, oh, maybe 200 feet of the track. The cars would come zipping through there, and without a scoreboard in view, we had absolutely no idea who was in the lead, or who the cars were that we saw. In a word, it was boring, a complete waste of an afternoon. I wasn't the only one to feel that way; the promoter of the race went bankrupt, and the race pulled out of Denver after about 3 years. Now it's back; last year was the first race after about 10 years without one. And the new one is in financial trouble, as well.

Remember, this is strictly my opinion. I'm not putting down all road racing, only relating my own experience. I have absolutely no doubt that this type of racing is popular in other cities and venues, but when you fight the heat and the crowds, and are only able to see a small percentage of the track, it doesn't make for a very good spectator sport.

The reason I'm a drag racing fan is that it all happens in a hurry. My wife tells me I'm hooked on "Short Attention Span Motor Sports", and she's right. It's a race that starts quickly, and is over almost as quickly. It fits my style better than circle track or road racing, because I can't stand to watch the same old thing for 2 or 3 or 4 or 24 hours. But that's just me. I read an article a year or so ago about a fella who spent thousands and thousands of dollars on his Impala, or Chevelle, or some other large Chebby, to turn it into a very successful road racer. He competes with the Porsches, Corvettes, Vipers, and the like, and routinely wins. My hat's off to him, because that's a HUGE engineering accomplishment.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-18-2005, 04:08 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: NorCal
Age: 80
Posts: 10,059
Default

I find this forum to be about performance in general, for specialized discussions on drag racing and roundy-pounding there are dedicated forums here.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-18-2005, 04:26 PM
flipper35 flipper35 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: El Centro, CA
Posts: 171
Default

The same reason FIA World Rally and S.C.O.R.E. and a host of others aren't perceived to be popular by the fans, marketing. A racer on the other hand has a small dirt circle track available in just about any town. Drag strips too aren't too far away. But road race tracks are few and far between. I have three or four dirt ovals and an 1/8th mile strip within 100 miles of where I live. The nearest road course is a six hour drive. Don't get me wrong, I an a huge fan of road racing and I bought a car (small block of course) that would be fun to road race. I just don't have anywhere to run it.

By the way, Road America is one of the greatest road courses in the world as far as I am concerned, right up there with Spa, Monaco and Nurburgring.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-18-2005, 05:32 PM
Ray Bell's Avatar
Ray Bell Ray Bell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Dalveen, Queensland
Posts: 3,236
Default

Oh, indeedy, Elkhart Lake is one I've got to see when I get to America!

Quote:
Originally posted by Scatman 340
I was there in 1976. I was in Brisbane in fact. Had a great time! Though I wouldn`t want to go back. I`ve been watching too many nature shows, and you have too many things down there that will kill you. Like those funnel web spiders, YIKES!
You sound like my daughter in law!

My son went to Bloomington Ind back in 1993 and hasn't been back since. Says his wife is afraid of these things... I think I've seen three or four funnel webs in my life, and I lived in Sydney where they originate.

Quote:
Originally posted by NZ 440R/T
.....Back in the era of muscle and pony that was the name of the game - straight line. My Challenger would fall flat on it's face if it raced a 1.8L Honda around bends but it wasn't designed for such use. Big engine, big chasis set up, big power (Torque) for straight line performance against GM and Ford.
I think you could iron a lot of that out, you know...

The 'muscle car' era and the 'pony car' era saw a lot of road racing by American iron. Dan Gurney, for instance, took a 409 Impala to England and wiped the field at Silverstone. That car later came to Australia and was used as a super cool towmaster for a guy who had a Brabham and a Lotus.

And Galaxies were road racing all around the world. They managed to get the suspensions sorted so they'd handle as well as go, though stopping them still caused some grief. And Mopar iron wasn't out of it altogether. A Fury raced here in Australia on some odd occasions... it was a drag car primarily, but ran in road races too, while a '62 Dodge also raced occasionally, but not at the same level. Just for fun. And on some very tight tracks, too!

Then came the Trans-Am. Your cars grew a lot more handling and brakes for that. With one race won by a Pontiac GTO... now, that was something to write home about.

Quote:
Originally posted by DanL
.....My son and I had seats close to the track, and we could see all of about, oh, maybe 200 feet of the track. The cars would come zipping through there, and without a scoreboard in view, we had absolutely no idea who was in the lead, or who the cars were that we saw. In a word, it was boring, a complete waste of an afternoon.....
You know, I agree with you totally! You have to see some of the circuit, and there are circuits where you see a lot. But I also believe that it's important not to be able to see it all.

At Bathurst, if you get up top of the mountain, you can see the first 3/4 mile or so, you lose the next half mile, spot bits and pieces for a while, see them flash by you and for somewhere between a quarter and half a mile depending on where you are. Then you lose them for a bit, but you see them all the way down the straight and back to the finish line. It's great, but then it's a truly great track.

Why it's important for them to go out of sight is this... it heightens excitement, for you don't know who's coming back into view first. Of course, you crane your neck to hear the loudspeakers and you might well find out that way, and it's good.

But modern public road events are terrible. Like you say, maybe 200 yards right in front of you and then nothing. You'd need an awful good public address system and a very much in touch with the event commentator to enjoy that.

Quote:
Originally posted by John Kunkel
I find this forum to be about performance in general, for specialized discussions on drag racing and roundy-pounding there are dedicated forums here.
John, the reason I raised this issue is because every post seems to mention quarter times and performance as it relates to the quarter mile.

There's so much more to getting a car to 'perform'... suspension, gearing (which does get mentioned, but only just touched on), brakes are all part of performance. So is fuel consumption.

This thread isn't about road racing, but it's about broadening the scope of understanding what 'performance' really means.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-18-2005, 05:56 PM
flipper35 flipper35 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: El Centro, CA
Posts: 171
Default

Forgot about Bathurst. Seems to me it is a track with long straights broken up by sheer terror in the mountains.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-18-2005, 06:38 PM
DanL's Avatar
DanL DanL is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Donut Center, CO
Age: 67
Posts: 1,815
Default

Of course, one other local race that I forgot to mention is the Pikes Peak Hill Climb.

Those blokes (is that the right word??) are nuts!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-18-2005, 09:55 PM
Ray Bell's Avatar
Ray Bell Ray Bell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Dalveen, Queensland
Posts: 3,236
Default

Ahh... yes... Pikes Peak... do a google search and download Climb Dance and watch that a few times!

Bathurst is indeed a couple of long straights and the 'sheer terror' of the mountains. Or steep hills, really... nevertheless, that circuit has shaped the performance cars built in Australia.

Because the annual 'Armstrong 500' race for showroom stock cars did so much damage to the Phillip Island circuit in the first three runnings, the race was sent to Bathurst... and it grew and grew.

With live telecasts to the whole of the country, the race was watched by literally millions ever year. It rapidly became the showcase of the Australian motor industry.

So the industry warmed up to it and produced cars that would win... and eventually that meant the Falcon GTs with 289s... 302s... 351s... and the Holden Monaro with 327 and then the 350. Chrysler came out with the somewhat lame 225 Pacer, then the 265 Hemi Pacer and finally the 265 triple Weber Charger.

But by that time the Gov was looking menacingly at what the industry was producing in their efforts to win the race. So the organisers let free the reins and modifications were allowed to the cars. This meant the makers didn't have to make the cars faster, the people racing them did that.

Still there is that connection between the road car and what can be raced... so Australia has a whole 40+ year history of making fast road cars in the form of family cars with nice handling and good brakes as well as power.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-18-2005, 09:56 PM
rumblefish360's Avatar
rumblefish360 rumblefish360 is offline
Moparchat Bronze member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: C
Age: 57
Posts: 11,120
Default

This is by far the most interesting thought provking topic. ( I was about to sign off but read allmost every word of each reply)
Here in America, as said before, "How much power do I have to go fast right here and now" is much of the game. Handleing of the car does come in, but, without great strives being made in the street scene.
Around my way (N.Y.) the closest thing is the lil'ricers buzzing around and the allready made to handle cars out of the box rippin up the Hwy.'s. (A true menace)
Having my MoPar handle better is just simply wider tires, stiffer shocks, sway bars, T-bars & leafs. After that, for the street, it does well.

I also do not care to out do or pretend to road race the kids in ricers or ready made road monsters.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-18-2005, 10:44 PM
Ray Bell's Avatar
Ray Bell Ray Bell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Dalveen, Queensland
Posts: 3,236
Default

Just what's required to make a big car handle is often a matter of a long period of trial and error...

I'm very much in favour of shocks as the first port of call. Especially Konis, they are good gear, though I think Edelbrock have some good stuff too.

After that, if you really think the springs need a bit, then do it, but mostly the original springs aren't too bad. Sway bars is often a matter of taste, but remember that if you want more understeer (push) the general rule is to put more bar on the front... for more oversteer you put more bar on the rear.

So the bars are actually detracting from the ability of the wheels to keep ground contact. In essence, they are trying to lift the inside wheels...

For my money, I like a car that leans a bit. It tells you more about what it's doing.

When Ben starts trying to sort out the handling of this ole '64 on the circuits we'll be in a better position to say what's what.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-18-2005, 10:47 PM
Billydelrio Billydelrio is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Del Rio, Texas, USA
Posts: 919
Default

A 1/4 mile time is probably the easiest comparison tool when you are comparing your car's performance to another's across the nation/world. Any driver can make 1/4 mile marks on the road and stopwatch his own times with relative ease and safeness. It is a little more difficult and a lot less safe to find a good road with lots of turns to road race on and compare your results to others around the world.

I do like road racing. I even saw a few races at Hockenheim back in the early 70s, just after the Jim Clark era.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-18-2005, 11:32 PM
Ray Bell's Avatar
Ray Bell Ray Bell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Dalveen, Queensland
Posts: 3,236
Default

Indeed that's true, Billy...

However, what has happened is that there has been a whole culture develop around this single aspect of a car's performance. To the extent, in fact, that people pour thousands of dollars into preparing some of the top dragsters for just a few runs at a meet... and then they have to be torn down and lifed components tossed out.

That seems just so impractical to me, but then the same applies to Grand Prix cars, which rev to 19,000 rpm with their V10 engines of 181cid capacity and make nearly 900hp doing so. They are severely lifed, yet this year's rules require that an engine can't be changed for two meetings without penalty.

So they become a little more robust... but still not a practical application of all that engineering talent and machinery and raw material.

Getting back to the culture I mentioned, it leads to the kind of questions you see on this forum. A solitary thought... how fast in a quarter mile?

It sells the car builder short, really.

It's very easy to see, by the way, how America went this way. A horsepower race generated by the NASCAR racing of the fifties, cars that severely lacked brakes, a sales team keen to give 'boulevarde' ride to the buyers... the cars didn't handle, they didn't stop... but man they went! And the roadmakers were keeping pace as the freeway networks developed.

Not so here... it's only in the past twenty years that the main road between our largest two cities has approached freeway conditions for the whole of its 550-mile length. There's still a little bit to do, but it's a breeze these days compared to some of the twisty 2-lane blacktop we had a quarter of a century ago.

So we needed cars that handled and stopped to a slightly greater degree. And we got them, in the main.

Hockenheim in the 70s? Before the chicanes went in, but after the loop in the stadium... some pretty fast racing went on there!
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-19-2005, 12:56 AM
gthomas gthomas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: San Fernando Valley, CA
Posts: 810
Default

I'm a big fan of road racing also, but.... It is kind of like parking on a hill above the freeway and watch the cars go by. You have to be strategically place where the passed are made. And even in that you may see your favorite driver is now in front of the "blue" car the last time you saw him but don't have a clue how it happened. This even happens on the big ovals where you can't see the whole track. IMHO the best scenario is to watch these kind of races on TV.

On the other hand drag racing, some of the SCCA and small ovals are very entertaining when you can see the whole track. I still like smaller tracks where you can see everything. I'm probably one of the few people that don't like the "fuelies" or the funny cars, but enjoy super stock and below.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-19-2005, 03:58 AM
NZ 440R/T's Avatar
NZ 440R/T NZ 440R/T is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Age: 41
Posts: 4,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Bell
I think you could iron a lot of that out, you know...

The 'muscle car' era and the 'pony car' era saw a lot of road racing by American iron. Dan Gurney, for instance, took a 409 Impala to England and wiped the field at Silverstone. That car later came to Australia and was used as a super cool towmaster for a guy who had a Brabham and a Lotus.

And Galaxies were road racing all around the world. They managed to get the suspensions sorted so they'd handle as well as go, though stopping them still caused some grief. And Mopar iron wasn't out of it altogether. A Fury raced here in Australia on some odd occasions... it was a drag car primarily, but ran in road races too, while a '62 Dodge also raced occasionally, but not at the same level. Just for fun. And on some very tight tracks, too!

Then came the Trans-Am. Your cars grew a lot more handling and brakes for that. With one race won by a Pontiac GTO... now, that was something to write home about.

I do realise this but you missed my point, you asked why 1/4 mile times here where so widely discussed, I gave you the answer that most of us here own American muscle and although there would have been a few road racers back in the era, you'd be very wrong to think that drag racing and salt flat racing were not the MAJOR majority.
I know road racing and love it come from New Zealand, you know the place thats going to eat the Wallabies in the next week
But I know tBathurst and NZ being a najor rally player in the WRC we just as much a road racing nation as the Aussies.


Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-19-2005, 08:35 AM
Ray Bell's Avatar
Ray Bell Ray Bell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Dalveen, Queensland
Posts: 3,236
Default

I thought you might have been a Kiwi... hope you've still got your accent!

If I missed your point I'm sorry, but I was trying to convey my anguish that every discussion descended to quarter miles, with no room for anything else.

Let's look at it from another angle...

Within drag racing there are classes. Small cars get a go, big cars have a run, funny cars, dragsters, trucks. Some are out of their element dragging, others are right in their element on the strip.

The same goes for road racing or circle track... if the CART cars were really intended to run as many road courses as they do, they would be lighter. Serious changes are made to sedans to make them raceworthy, what would appear to be lithe sporty cars sometimes perform quite badly alongside cars that you'd expect would never stand a chance.

Getting 'performance' out of a car can involve factors other than brute power. Like getting a sweet progression and driveability from an engine, like making brakes work better or last longer, like adjusting cambers and casters to help turn-in, fitting different springs or shocks or sway bars to alter the charactistics of a car in all manner of conditions.

You might be surprised what works, sometimes, too. I think it was Hot Rod Magazine which covered the work done on an Olds Toronado back when they first came out with front wheel drive in the mid to late sixties.

The Olds engineers set out, aided by some specialist racing people, to build a car that would make everyone sit up and take notice when they ran it at Pikes Peak.

Front wheel drive... uphill... gravel road... twisty... big car... never work, right?

Well, among the things they did was leave its ride height up and keep the suspension soft. This helped it heel into the turns and dig the tyres into the gravel and get good grip.

Goes against what you would expect, right? But it worked.

There are a billion topics like this that are about 'performance'... that's why I wonder why more don't come up on here.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-19-2005, 04:41 PM
Cudadrag Cudadrag is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Age: 63
Posts: 819
Default Imo

It is my opinion that road racing is very boring from a spectator point of view. Because you are unable to see the whole picture. I personally don't care for circle track racing as a spectator (though I got to buddy up once as driver #2 in an endurace race on a 1/2 mile oval. It was a blast)

I may be a victom of short attention span syndrome, so drag racing is perfect. I also appreicate the many different cars and builds that people experiment with. I think Nascar and the open wheel gangs have lost that. Every car is starting to look the same. I can't tell the difference between an Indy Dallara or Panoz. Although road race cars vary greatly one can only view a small percentage of the race. I'd bet it would be challenging and VERY fun to particapte but as a fan, I just don't get it.

IMO.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-19-2005, 06:30 PM
flipper35 flipper35 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: El Centro, CA
Posts: 171
Default Alms

The most fun road race to watch to me is the ALMS. Though all the P2 cars look the same to me, the P1, GT, and n-GT are different enough to keep it interesting. Also having them all on the reack at once is more interesting. But only on TV.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-19-2005, 08:38 PM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Age: 59
Posts: 1,831
Default

As was mentioned the 1/4 mile is a quick comparison to evaluate power.
When it comes to road racing, Carol Shelby summed it up in a recent interview when he stated that Goodyear really designed the Cobra.

Most circle track and road race catagories have rules that usually limit you to a specific tire type and size, and what modifications you can do the the engine. These tires and "rules" usually influence how the car is built.

I know a guy racing circle track in the mini-truck series with a 2.2L Rampage FWD, and he is smoking all the RWD trucks. The problem is because he is the only FWD, and he is alaways winning, they are changing the rules tring to make him slower. He is thinking they may even ban FWD trucks in the series next year.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-20-2005, 08:51 AM
Ray Bell's Avatar
Ray Bell Ray Bell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Dalveen, Queensland
Posts: 3,236
Default

Because of the duration of road races, whether they be 5 laps or 24 hours, they tend to develop... and in that way it may be somewhat difficult for a newcomer to grasp what's going on.

In fact, there are times when only an intimate knowledge will allow one to know what's going on in depth. Some cars, for instance, might be slow starters and come home hard. Others might have to take care of tyres or have other shortcomings that will require nursing of some kind.

As one guy once said to me, and he was someone who has worked in motor racing for many years, "motor racing is all about getting your act together." And while it's no doubt true in all avenues, there would be nowhere like road racing to prove that point.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
charger quarter mile jimmycarter Performance Talk 5 11-02-2002 06:35 PM
first quarter mile tim Drag Racing Forum 34 09-24-2002 01:22 AM
Ram SS/T quarter mile ET blksst59 Ram Truck Chat 27 01-06-2001 08:53 AM
What gears for Quarter mile? toolman Performance Talk 11 11-18-2000 04:58 AM
Quarter Mile times??? plumcrazy Ram Truck Chat 17 01-23-2000 03:56 PM




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
. . . . .