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  #1  
Old 12-16-2005, 04:05 PM
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Idea Budget 400 bb build......

Got a freshened 400 shortblock. That being said and short on cash, I have a 400 now in my 66 Coronet that I can swap peripherals (starter, alternator, new BG 750 carb, headers, Offy 360o intake, etc.) onto new motor. Lookin for suggestions regarding cast heads and camshaft/lifter combinations and probably a new intake. Gonna run pump gas obviously so would like to up the compression from stock not changing the flat tops. Gonna have the tranny rebuilt and I have 4:10 gears in the Dana 60. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Bob
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Old 12-17-2005, 07:46 AM
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A set of 915 closed chamber heads will up your compression. Put in some 2.14/1.88 valves and you have a nice head. Before you can pick a cam you need to determine what the compression will be. There are lots of nice hdraluic cams out there for you to choose from once you get the comp ratio/heads choice made.
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Old 12-17-2005, 10:27 AM
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Default heads

Is that the stock valve size for the 915 or will they need machining? I want to run pump gas so something in the 10:5 to 1 area. I am open to putting new pistons in it too, can I use the stock rods if I do?

Thanx.
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Old 12-17-2005, 02:09 PM
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How fast do you want to go? How much does the car weigh?
I have almost strickly used 400's in my Volare over the last 10 years. I have made my way from 14.7's to 11.2's. Car has ranged from 3900lbs to 3615.

I have not done as much parts swapping as I would like to have done. Its easy to go backwards with the 400's, gotta be picky on parts selection.
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Old 12-18-2005, 12:13 AM
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I would think that if a piston change isn't in the budget, then a set of heads with big valves isn't either.

I'm assuming this is a street motor? Just looking for some extra poop?

I decked a 400 block down .085. Had to deck down the intake to match.
I used 516's with stock valve size (208/160) with some mild port work.

It pushed a 5000 pound van into low 15's at 3500 ft of elevation. Had a nice torque curve and was a pleasure to drive. Would have run an ebody into low 14's no problem.

You'll probably need a strong vacuum secondary spring(assuming the carb is a vacuum secondary) to tune it right.

A change to closed chamber iron heads will up the compression, by virtually a full point. BUT keep in mind, that's you'll be going from 7.5 to 8.5.
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  #6  
Old 12-18-2005, 09:23 AM
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The 400 is a great under apreaciated motor. Depending on what year it is there are several things you can do. Earlier 400 like the 72 year are still pretty solid when it comes to compression. Later mid 70s were pretty sad being all the way down to 7.5:1. Zero deck the block, 40 overbore, keith black hyper pistons a nice set of 452 unleaded heads, and a good cam. You will be amazed at how that motor pounds and pulls.
The cheapest way to go is cam, intake, and carb. More exspensive gets into overbore, pistons, head work, things like that.
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Old 12-18-2005, 09:57 AM
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Default More......

The 66 Coronet weighs about 3600 lbs I think. I will be adding a set of pistons to the mix as it looks like they'll be needed to get some good compression. I'm not interested in winning my class at my local track. Just want a reasonable performer for the street that "thumps"! Was gonna build a stroker but want to budget build now as I will buy a Challenger if Ma builds it so the big hammmer money will go to the down payment.
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Old 12-18-2005, 09:59 AM
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Default boring out.....

Can have it bored out too, my buddy can do this for me fairly reasonably, want to steer away from an expensive rotating assembly, hopefully can use existing crank and rods maybe with bigger slugs?
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  #9  
Old 12-19-2005, 01:17 AM
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If you only want something that is pretty quick it will be simple. I put together a cheap 400 that could run mid 12's at 3700lbs with 8.5-1 comp and ran on 87 octane. I built one that ran 98mph, 104mph, 108mph and the current one went 115 before the head swap and 120 after.
I used a .040 400 with pistons .115 down( was a chryco reman that I reringed and bearing'd)516 heads not milled at all, mopar .528 cam, 1.6 iron rockers, RPM intake, 750 holley, 1 7/8 headers. I did not have the rest of the car setup well as it did not have enough converter or gear but ran 12.9@108. Considering I have run 11.9's@111 it could have gone low 12's. This was at 3660lbs with me in it.
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  #10  
Old 12-19-2005, 01:02 PM
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Default compresstion

Compresstion is required for makeing power.
However compresstion will not get it done by it's self.
The engine must have good air flow for max effect.
You said you already have 2 things.
(1) a fresh 400 short block.
(2) a budget
With this in mind keep what you have for pistons.
Find a set of 452 heads as they have 2.08 intake and 1.74 exhuast valves.
More often then not they also come with double valve springs.
Yes they are an open chamber head .
But in (budget minded) stock configuation they will out flow the old 516 closed chamber heads.
Camshafts are ground for spacific engine combonations .
What works very well in one combo may not be worth dirt in another.
Call around to some of the mgf .
When you contact them be sure to have your combo info ready.
As they will need to know such things as car weight,gear ratio,convertor specs,tire hieght,type of intake and what your use for this combo will be.
Don,t get wild on the cam size.
To much cam is even worse then to little.
They can and will be glad to recommend a grind for your combo.
The intake should be something with a single open plenum.
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  #11  
Old 12-19-2005, 04:57 PM
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Default Thanx

Gettin alot of various info regarding what head to use, I guess another advantage to the 452 is the hardened seats too but if they flow as well as the 915 then what the hell, and they seem to be more readily available. Sounds like what you did is what I'm lookin for Glen as far as the performance range goes. And Dan as I wouldn't begin to know how to pick a cam, I will call Comp Cams (and alot of people use Racer Brown?) once I have the rest of the info on torque converter and tire size as I currently have a 275/50 on the back and want to got to something taller. While not the "Bible" I'm sure, I was using this article as a reference.


http://moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5115/
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  #12  
Old 12-20-2005, 03:54 AM
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A 400 is a relatively big bore and short stroke engine. It's got decent heads for the size, and there is no special "hi perf" castings to look for. The main problem is the low factory compression ratio, and as far as that thing goes they are all on the same level. There is no high compression factory 400's. Actually according to NHRA Stock blueprint specs, the newer the 400, the higher CR allowed. Reality is often something else; the deck heights and the chambersizes are nowhere near the blueprint specs, and the true CR may be in the 7's. There is no other sensible way up there except changing the pistons for ones with bigger compression height. The problem in the past was, that there was no high CR pistons readily available for the 400, which made building one for high performance usually expensive. The stock 400 piston compression height is 1.812". With a stock stroke, stock 9.98" block height and stock 6.258" rod length the piston should be 0.122" below the deck at TDC. Assuming a typical 88-90cc chamber, calculating the stock CR with those specs you'll be DEEP in the 7's with the factory steel shim head gaskets. Is there an easy way up? Yes there is, and always has been; use oversize 440 pistons. If you take a look at silvolite cast pistons, the ones for the "smog" 440 (#1276) has 1.912" compression height. Those should raise your CR to about 9.2:1. The pistons for the older 440 (#1263), has 1.969" compression height that will make the pistons have a positive deck in a 400. You will have to trim the chamber slightly for clearance, but these will bring you to over 10:1. With both of these you have to check the valve to piston clearance and maybe trim it, and also the piston skirt to counterweight clearance. However, these pistons do not cost that much, and will get the job done. I have done a 400 this way, although using used .030" TRW L 2266 Forged pistons and slightly radiusing the ocrners to clear the chamber. With a composite head gasket and milled heads we had close to 10:1 CR, which was a good basement. The heads used were an unmatched set of newer "smog" castings, both ported differently. One with straightened and enlargened ports, maybe done with an axe, and one with a less agressive porting done by me. Both had 2.14/1.81" valves. The intake was (is) a Weiand Team G and the carb a 850 speed demon dp. Cast crank, stock rods, balanced; that's all important information about the short block. The only "exotic" part in the engine was the cam, a comp cams 306 R mechanical roller with 275@.050" and .625" lift. Too much, many say, but it seems to work. 2" x 32" primary headers and 3" exhaust with straight through mufflers, old mopar breakerless marine distributor with MSD 6 AL. The whole engine, mainly put together out of used parts, cost less than 3000$ all included. The engine is in a 2800 lbs Valiant with leaf springs etc, and it runs in the 10.6's at 127+ mph. Here is a link where you can see & hear it run against my old family sedan: http://www.planbee.org/2005/muuta/Haapsalu%20054.avi
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  #13  
Old 12-21-2005, 04:35 PM
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Default Heads

Turns out I have the 3751213 castings on the engine that in the car now with 2:08/1:74 valves and 81.95cc chambers. Supposed to be motor home heads that use smaller plugs and increased cooling/water jackets? What might my options be using these heads (rebuilt of course) if worth it? Found these pistons from Mancini for use with 88 cc (906?) chambers giving 9.0 to 1? Otherwise, I might be back to following something like your prescription Dart, just ain't sure about all the "trimming".


http://store.yahoo.com/chucker54/4008890to1se.html

Thanx,
Bob
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  #14  
Old 12-21-2005, 04:57 PM
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Default Weight

The car weights 3215 lbs not 3600 as I reported earlier.
Thanx.
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  #15  
Old 12-21-2005, 05:46 PM
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I have a 1974 440 Motorhome engine with the same style heads. Mine are 452 Castings with the extra water jackets and smaller plugs. As far as I am concerned they aren't worth a squat. If you have the Motorhome heads most likely you have a motorhome engine. Very low compression engines.
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  #16  
Old 12-22-2005, 03:59 AM
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I have seen those heads in many other applications than mototr home. And different head catings using the smaller plugs. Really don't know why, maybe they have had shortages of some parts at some point? I have even owned two 440's with different head castings on both side, never opened.

Those Mancini pistons have the exact same CH as the silvolite smog 440 pistons. The heads 81.95cc is a "wish", a blueprint spec. A rule of thumb is, that all the open chamber BB heads despite of the casting number are around 88-90cc stock. Closed chambers are slightly smaller, the chamber shape is otherwise pretty much the same but they lack the open area. If you look at teh Edelbrock heads, they offer both closed & open chamber version and their difference is 4cc. The factory open part is a little deeper, so the difference is slightly more, maybe a couple of cc's, But I have not personally measured many closed chamber BB factory heads. I don't remeber if the 440 pistons needed trimming in the skirts, But that should be checked with every piston. Same with the valve to piston clearance, everytime there is changes that affect that, it should be checked and care taken that there is enough of it. If you mill the heads, if you get pistons with higher compression height, if you change the cam in to one with different specs, in tight places even if you change cam timing or rocker arms. I think that with a moderate performance cam and pistons with the 1.908" compression height you shouldn't have problems, but it's way more worth checking it than pulling the valves out of what was left out of the pistons and perhaps other parts.
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  #17  
Old 12-22-2005, 08:07 PM
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Default ok

Gotcha Dart on the checking everything clearance wise, got some people helping that know alot about this stuff unfortunately for them they're "bowties" and don't know much mopar but they're experienced with machining heads, blocks etc and I can get these services done reasonably. Wondering if these heads have the hardened seats like the 452's? They're are 1973 castings. If so, probably not enough differences to sweat it between these and the other castings etc for the "budget build". Especially if we get into putting in hardened seats etc. Learning alot here I appreciate everyones feedback. What about zero decking the block with the stock pistons and maybe shaving the heads again given that there is clearances needed?
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Old 12-23-2005, 05:28 AM
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Use the heads as they are if possible, perform a performance valve job and use MP templates to port the bowls unless you can do it without them. If you start putting money in them and install hardened guides etc., you have soon invested so much that you could get new Edelbrocks for almost the same money. They propably do not have good hardened seats, the stock hardening is very thin anyway, and may go away when a valve job is done. Depending of how much you plan to drive, the seats would not be my first concern. I would do as litle as possible to the heads now, and save moeny for the E-brocks.

Use your friends to help you, if they are experienced, they know engines and it's all that's needed for the basic work despite of the brand you are used to.

Milling to zero deck is possible, but it's a wrong way to save money. Milling that much isn't free, you have to correct intake fit, pushrod length changes etc. It usually ends up costing more than changing the pistons, and after the job you are tied to the very parts you have. All new parts installed have to go through the mods too, so I would not mill any more than what is neede for small "tuning".
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Old 12-23-2005, 01:18 PM
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Default Ok

Cool, ok found the silvolites on KB's site has all the info. From your previous post on 12/20/05 you said use overbore # 1276, how much overbore with stock 400 boresize or is they're a way to calculate? Sounds like this is the way I'm gonna go. I appreciate everyone's feedback on this build.
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  #20  
Old 12-23-2005, 09:35 PM
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For a stock 400 bore size you need a .020 over 440 piston.

I run an off the shelf KB piston in my 400(kb240). It specs at -.019 deck height and has pretty big valve notches so you do not have to worry about valve to piston clearance till you go real big. If you have a standard bore 400 right now there must be a ridge at the top of the bore. That will cause issues. The right way to do it is to bore it to the next size and have the pistons fit. That way the piston to wall clearance can be set right.

The 440 pistons will need valve notches and they are heavy. I looked into that route and an off the shelf piston was easier.


How fast do you want to go? You can do a real cheap budget motor or a more expensive budget motor. You are getting into a complete rebuild now, I would throw cheap out the window now.
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Old 12-24-2005, 08:55 AM
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Default ok

.20 over, ok, thanx Glen. Why would the 1276 need to be notched for vaves at stock deck height? Looks like I can get higher compression with the 1276's and stock otherwise. I'm not looking for speed really, just a decent performing/sounding stump puller for the street.

Thanx.
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Old 12-24-2005, 08:56 AM
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Default also

No ridge, the shortblock that I have (not the engine in the car) was honed, ringed and new bearings.
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Old 12-24-2005, 01:52 PM
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As long as you stick with a real small cam you'll be ok with no valve notches.That piston must be -.185 in the hole in a 440 to be 0 deck in a 400, I'm guessing its a positive deck piston. That is where you need to clearance the heads, will be marginal valve to piston clearance, .185 less than the 440. If your not looking to go fast then you may be waisting your time and money doing a piston swap. They say 4% per point increase in comp. You might see 20hp but spend alot to get it. The other thing is you will be building an engine with compression and no quench. You may have to keep the timing dialed back a bit.
For a street only engine I would keep comp low and run 87 octane.
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Old 12-27-2005, 07:09 PM
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What about the crank? Personally I would use a 440 crank cut down for 400 mains (The counter weights will also need to be cutdown) to get a 3.75" stroke. Ross has 10.5:1 pistons just for this build using either 400 or 440 rods.

How much over bore can you go? Assuming the block sonic tests ok .040 is about the max I would attempt.

So lets tally it up!

400 block bored .040 over (4.38") with a 3.75" stroke 440 crank gets you to 452 cubes. I used 452 open chamber with 2.18" intake 1.81" exhaust (obviously some head work done. most on the intake side) with the Ross 10.5:1 pistons. Match that with a MP purple grind cam 312@ .590 solid lift (I know there are better grinds especially if a roller setup is desired, but for me using standard MP rockers and 3/8" push rods it worked well) 2.25" header pipe, MP M-1 intake using an older Holley 850 DP carb I get a good 500 horse and 500+ ft/lbs of torque on pump 92 octane for a very reasonable cost.

My 451 (My over bore ended up a little short of .040) easily outperforms any pump gas 440s I have had. The reduced rotating weight of the 400 is just too much of an advantage for a 440 to over come with similar builds.

This is just my opinion of course. But from what you say you have to work with the 451/452 stroker build should be a serious option. Should be around the $3000 mark (maybe less if you have a connection with the machine work)
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  #25  
Old 12-28-2005, 03:27 AM
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We never dynoed our budget 400 before selling it, but it had better mph than friends only slightly heavier SB chevy that was dynoed at 570 hp. The cubic inches do not make much power if the breathing parts are the same, but it will add torque and take everything in to lower rpm. I agree with you, having built several of them the '451' is a great package, but building one makes it way more expensive than building on what you already have. During the last years, the parts prices has come down, but it's still hard to do a "budget" stroker. The money that goes in to making a '451' can be used better for making power with a 440. The difference in the piston weights effect in power isn't that huge.
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Old 12-28-2005, 05:48 PM
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Default KB 240's

Hey Glen, you mentioned not getting too "big" with using the KB 240's. (I'm assuming you ment cam) What might be somthing I can use, I was thinking something in the Purple Stick hydraulic range?

Bob
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Old 12-28-2005, 06:30 PM
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I know it’s easy (for me) to get carried away by saying "For a little more you can have.....) But I am a firm believer that one gets more bang for the buck using a short block verses an RB. (Excluding the hemi. NOTHING is cheap with the hemi but then ultimately the hemi is unmatched in the 2-valve world.

There are other advantages then just piston weight. Both connecting and push rods are shorter thus lighter. The mains are smaller thus less friction. Let alone just the block weight reduction.

Again I'm getting off topic. And yes if the budget is extremely tight a stroker my not be feasible. But with the 400 it’s hard for me not to explore that option. Because with so many workable 440 cranks out there. Its as if Chrysler did it on purpose with the deployment of the 400 in 1972.

I wonder if they di
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Old 12-29-2005, 04:13 AM
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Chrysler had plans for replacing the whole B/RB engine line with a new engine based on the B- block, the infamous "ball stud Hemi", but because of the energy crises, it never materialized. It would have been offered with pith the B and RB stroke, so they were fully aware about that possibility. Overall, the RB block is unnecessarily high, even the B block is higher than a BB chevy block. If I were to build a B with a RB crank, I would use RB length rods. Have done it both ways, but I prefer teh longer rods in that application. The pistons typically weigh only about 670 grams compared to TRW style forged replacement pistons for 440 that weigh around 1100 grams with pins. Think about the effect on how the other parts are stressed with those weights. And the stroking of the 400 can be done even with a cast crank that are very inexpensive; in that case it would be better to clearance the block instead of cutting the countrerweights down. With light pistons and stock or 440 source rods (they are lighter than most others) you may get the cast crank balanced internally.
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Old 12-29-2005, 02:19 PM
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Well Dart you have explored the B-block. And I agree that the longer 440 rods are preferred. Though I used my 400 rods I have been told that the longer rods are easier on the block and bearings. But I was also told of some cam lift restrictions using the longer rods due to then actually start coming in contact with high lift cams. (Although I think this is with using the 4.15" crank)

Have you ever seen this? I believe its the reason for raised cammed engines (not just Mopar, but any engine stroked enough will eventually have this problem) I would also guess that Chevy using even lower deck height designs would run into this first.

I also agree that RB blocks have too high of deck for the cubic inches displaced.

Wow! Really off subject now.. So in conclusions the B-block (I believe) is more flexible and cheaper for pump gas builds. I had a 69 Satellite with the 335 horse 383 that kept it very close to my 69 GTX 440 375 horse. Both were stock. The GTX was almost 300 lbs heavier (at 3500 lbs) with the hemi 4 manual trans vs a stock 727 for the Satellite. But I really noticed the 383 was able to get to its power band a little quicker thus kept it close. (Both running high 13s) with only headers and tire changes.
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Old 12-30-2005, 03:07 AM
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I have not jumped in to auch cam problems. In our '69 valiants engine, a 400 with a 4.15 " crank, we have had pretty big cams, up to 0.46" lobe lift. The current cam is a bit smaller, but it now has 1.7 ratio rockers, so the total lift is bigger at 0.75". That's with steel rods, aluminum rods are physically larger and may cause problems earlier. Extreme pump gas with over 290 degrees @ .050", 12:1 CR and big port heads, actually I think it's even a bit too extreme. It produces pretty good power, but I think should do a little better. We haven't done any tuning or tried different parts though, and I feel we might benefit from a little smaller headers and better exhaust. The current headers are 2 1/4", and the exhaust is a 3.5" "axe" job. Still I think, this is about as wild as a pump gas street "400" engine practically gets, has run 9.4's at 144 mph on DOT's with SS springs.
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