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  #1  
Old 02-26-2006, 11:47 PM
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mopower04 mopower04 is offline
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Biggrin Every little bit helps

Ok I'm building that 440 with a 727 tranny, all time 4x4 dana 60 rear 44 front 4.10 gears, and 38x12.50 swampers. Now then it will be mainly a weekend worrier and a mud runner, trail truck. This is my current plan for it and i am looking for other ideas or options.

edelbrock dual plane intake
holly 750cfm carb
lunati voodo cam .513/.533 lift
flowtech headers
bored .030 over
Cat or the H beam rods from 440 source.com
speed pro power forged .140 dome pistons and low tension rings
Clevite 77 bearings
Stock crank
Cat fluid dampner
heads milled .020
hardend seats installed in heads
New valves
Crane high performance Valve springs
Stock rocker arms
Pushrods?????

Rebuild the 727 and have a 2800-3000 stall converter

any thing i missed or any better ideas greatley appreciated!! non of this is written in stone yet. The block has been bored and I have the pistons so far so anything can change!!! thanks!
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  #2  
Old 02-27-2006, 01:54 AM
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440 is a great pick for 4X4 motor. Alway makes lots of torque.

BUT...

You'll have a hard time keeping transmissions in it with the stall and cam. Mud in the rad, and some obscene temps will result.
Your not doing 1/4 mile passes. When your in a mud hole shifting from forward to reverse for 1/2 an hour there will be plenty of carnage.

Personally I would back way out of the cam and stall.
A milder cam will give you much better torque.
Lower stall speed will keep the trans temps down.

410 seems like a lot of gear but with 38" tires it's not. It certainly won't help with the cam you are suggesting.

My .02
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  #3  
Old 02-27-2006, 03:26 PM
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Biggrin Cam,stall,fuel line,rods

Great, what would be a good recomendation for a cam and stall for this 4x4 set up with 38 inch tires and 4.10 gears. I am trying to get some rpm power and torque because it will be in mud drags as well as trail riding. so not so much back and forth in a hole in the mud drags just a lot of rpms for a long time. any good cam ideas or other mods would be helpful

oh also i was told that on this type of setup i sould use 1/2 inch fuel line with an electric pump?? could i use 3/8 and a mechanical or even 3/8 and an electric? 1/2 from the bottom of the tank to the carb seems like a hell of a lot, but then again i will be using a 750-770 cfm carb.

Just one more thing i called 440 source today for some info on their rods and man do they know there stuff. Guy by the name Brandon gave me the 411 on every inch of the H and I beams, advantages, disadvantages, and what would be better for my app. Great service! and i'm pretty sure i'm going with their I beams now rather than Cat or 440's H beams, other wise it will be the 440 source H beams!!!


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  #4  
Old 02-28-2006, 03:27 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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First, I would not use the domed pistons if the intention is to use pump gas. I would use TRW 2355's or their speed pro equivalent instead, they are the six pack flat tops with valve reliefs. The domed pistons and milled heads will most likely take the CR too high, the six pack pistons would be just about right. I would mock up the assembly and mill the block to achieve zero deck with those pistons, that will be about .015". I think stock rods might do fine in an engine like this, but those aftermarketones are so cheap that maybe it's more cost effective to get a set of those 440 source rods than to start prepping and balancing the stock rods.

Actually, Summit offers pretty decently priced short block rebuild kits; if I remember correctly the one with the forged six pack pistons is about 550$, here is the part number: FEM-CSMHP817-322 The last three digits vary by the required over/undersizes, this is for a .030" over bore and .020/.020" under crank. It includes practically everything for the short block rebuild, add a double roller timing chain kit and a high volume fuel pump and those rods and you've got evrything you need there.

I would strongly consider getting aftermarket heads instead of investing on the old factory castings. The Edelbrock RPM's are great heads out of the box, unleaded compatible and all the parts brand new. They are a serious performance gain over factory heads, and will not crack next week. With zero deck block and the 84cc Edelbrocks you would have a slightly over 10:1 aluminum headed quench engine that should perform excellent. You also need ARP head bolt kit with the Edelbrocks, ARP-145-3606.

If you stick to the plan using the old iron heads, mill them as little as possible; even with the flat tops you are very close of having too much CR for pump gas in a non quench engine.

Your overall gear ratio is pretty high; it's about equivalent to a 3.0 geared car with 28" tires. You seldom see a 3000 stall converter in such cars, and the Ramcharger weighs pretty much. I would pick a smaller cam, if you like to use a Lunati voodoo cam I would pick the 60302LK cam& lifter package instead. Other manufacturers have good offerings too, Hughes, Competition Cams XE and Straightline Performance cams just to mention few. I would not necessarily pick the most aggressive design possible either, they are more sensitive to correct lifter angles and locations and do not last as long as the less aggressive designs. But if you do not drive that much, maybe it would work OK.

You can use stock pushrods, or stock replacements with the stock rockers, unless you so a lot of milling. Another otpion might be using adjustable pushrods; that way you can adjust the preloads correctly, and of course the best option would be using adjustable rockers, but that adds cost to the package. If going with adjustables, I would use iron rockers instead of aluminum. The old non rollers work great despite of not being "hip", and other options are avaialable from comp cams, 440 source etc.

As far as the intake goes, I would use RPM intake. In the Ramcharger you've got no hood clearance problems and the RPM beats the performer from bottom to top. The performer isn't much better than the factory cast iron intake.

A stock mopar 11" converter would be a great choice, they have about 2000+ stall speed behind a 440 and are very good quality converters compared to most aftermarket ones and can be bought cheap. Check that it's got the correct balance for your engine; is using a cast crank I would buy a B&M balanced flex plate and use a zero balanced converter. Take care of your transmission oil cooling, add an external cooler if you don't already have one, and a deep transmission pan wouldn't be a bad idea either.

And last but not least, the ignition. Get a distributor with a correct advance curve for your combination, I would tailor teh curve myself, but if you don't want to do that contact Don at http://www.4secondsflat.com for hte ignition needs. But don't listen to his opinion about Holleys or Chinese parts! A 750 cfm vacuum Holley would be great with minor tweaking, and undoubptly Don would like to sell you a nice readily prepped demon, which wouldn't be a bad choice either. How did it turn out this long?
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  #5  
Old 02-28-2006, 05:48 AM
Tarrbabe Tarrbabe is offline
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Default You didn't mention the duration on the cam........

That has a lot to do with it. Mud engines need much low to mid-range power. Only with the extreme tires can ;you do anything at high rpms. If your allowed the extreem tires, you can go for horsepower. Otherwise it is torque that gets it done. Without traction you are just spinning your tires. I have seen many 440's go up in smoke and no traction. 440's have a lot of torque but you need to maximize the power to get them to scream. What do you need for your class?
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  #6  
Old 02-28-2006, 12:26 PM
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cry2 Help Me!!!!

i love this website! So many people, so much advice!!

I'd like to do alot of stuff to this motor like the edelbrock heads but I'm a college student and kind of on a budget. anywho. the RPM intake was my plan summit part #edl-7193 and rpm range 1500-6500.

I alrady own the domed pistons so i'm not going with the flat tops, and with the old cylinder heads i'll only be around 10.25:1 comp and a buddy of mine has a chevy 383 stroker he has around 11.5-12:1 comp ratio and he runs about 1-3 gallons of race fuel when he can and finishes with 93 pump gas and it does not spark knock or anything, its acctually pretty wild! So I think i'm safe with the dome pistons.

Cam type I can see know that the voodo cam i was going to use was way to high of an rpm range for this set up, I like Crane cams 454/480 lift cam 1500-6500rpm, Comp's .488/491 lift 1800-6000 or lunati's voodo 494/513 1800-6200. Other wise would a straight up cam be a good choice for this truck??

Carb is going to be a 750 holly #hly-0-80508s or a 770truck avenger.

Still not sure on fuel pump and lines for this app. 3/8 or 1/2 line on this? electric or mechanical??

As for the tranny 727, should I go with a high performance rebuild kit or will a regular replace everything suffice?? and I want a shift kit, full manual control or a 1-2 manual?

Stall converter I think around 2400-2800 max now??

Please give me all the info and advice anyone can! This is my first true rebuild and i want it to last more than 10,000miles.

NOTE it will have 38" super swampers on it and will be used mainly as a weekend warrior and to run in mud pits on occation. or just to trail ride.

Thanks to everyone who gives me some input! All advice is welcome!
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  #7  
Old 02-28-2006, 03:16 PM
TK TK is offline
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Hmmmm
Mud truck engine.
First off, Heat destroys anything, and, if you have ever played in the mud, heat is the most common way to kill your engine, and tranny. Well, behind having some radical engine snapping axles off of your 44 you put the 38's on, LOL
First off, you would need a cooler bigger than your radiator, to get that stall converter temp down. DO NOT expect reverse to last long either! The cam, you have mentioned, is WAY to big for a stock converter, and too hot idling. Mild engines crawl best in the mud, the stocker the idle, the better, the lower the stall, the better. It IS nice, to have something with high HP, but, your little 44 wont take it anyway.
Don't worry, your mildly built 440, with a nice smooth idle, will eat that 383 snall block for lunch, so that will not be a problem. Your compression is OK, as long as you don't mind the gas needing to be 90+ octane.
As for converter? Stock.
Cam? Stock. Or, close to stock, like a Comp 252, or 260. Anytime you start loping, you are making more heat, and heat, when the mud has clogged your radiator, and your fan clutch is stuck full of swamp weeds, makes all the difference between blowing coolant all over the swamp, or idling along with no problems, dragging your friends chevy behind you.
IMO, spend your converter and hot cam money on...........
Trans temp guage.
Big cooler, with it's own fan.
Four row radiator, with PROPER shroud.
Viscous fan clutch.
OPt for a shift kit without the manual valve body, your 727 does not overrun like a TH400, so there is no reason why............Make sure you have HD Big block parts, or aftermarket goodies in your tranny, IE planetaries, clutches, ect, John Kunkle, and Cutting Torch know the particulars on this.
Good luck.
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Old 02-28-2006, 09:37 PM
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Biggrin more questions!!!

ok so i'm looking for a power range in the 1500-6500 rpm range is what i'm matching parts for, so how about a stall range of about 2200-2400?? I have a cooler and i plan on putting an electrice fan to cool the engine.

I still havent gotten an answer from anyone on fuel line size 3/8 or 1/2 and to use electric or mechanical pumps.
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Old 03-01-2006, 03:50 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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The stock fuel line should be enough, fuel consumption in a decently working engine should be way under 0.5 lbs/hp/hour. Use a high volume mechanical pump, way more reliable than electric pumps, more than enough delivery for that kind of an engine and way less hassle.

You are most likely not going to get a 440 that pulls from 1500 to 6500. Most likely your effective power range will end at about 5000 or maybe a little above that. But don't worry about that, it will most likely be more than enough to cause other problems. With such a heavy car and long overall gear ratio, I would keep the rpm level down and use a prettyb low stall converter. Missing low end torque will most likely not be your concern.

Yes, you can use race gas blends or pure race gas with high CR's, but why bother? There is very little power in raising the CR only, keeping it on a safe level you will never have to pay attention to it. We've got a couple of BB's that are between 11.4 an 12:1, and run on pump gas (93 octane) without any detonation problems, but they are very far from stock headed short duration cam engines. But you make your choices, not me.
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Old 03-01-2006, 07:42 PM
TK TK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mopower04
ok so i'm looking for a power range in the 1500-6500 rpm range is what i'm matching parts for, so how about a stall range of about 2200-2400?? I have a cooler and i plan on putting an electrice fan to cool the engine.

I still havent gotten an answer from anyone on fuel line size 3/8 or 1/2 and to use electric or mechanical pumps.
IMO? Stock stall TC, your strong mild 440, will spin a stock TC to 1800.........(my 400-450HP 440 spins a stock truck TC up to about 2100 with your foot on the brake......)

You need a fan for the tranny cooler, at least we run them. We also use Air conditioning condensers for coolers too, if you have one around. And, like I said before, you spin your 440 up, and you WILL SNAP THE 44! You want a 6500 RPM spinning 440, you'd better find a 60, or a 70.
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  #11  
Old 03-02-2006, 03:26 PM
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Arrow Dana 60

I do plan on getting a Dana 60 front axle eventually but right now i'm focusing on the motor and tranny. I relize I would break some 44 parts with this motor no doubt, but thats the only option i have right now. also it is an all time 4x4 203 transfer case. Do you know of any kits that can make it part time or another case that will bolt right in without locking hubs??
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Old 03-02-2006, 03:35 PM
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Biggrin

Well..............

I would keep the 203 too..........part times are good for walking through the woods, easier on drivelines, and axles.

The best Tcase, IMO, is one out of a New ram, diesel/V10, but, they drive on the wrong side, which, if you are going through all the trouble of swapping to a 60, I would get a opposite drive axle too, they are easier on the pinion.
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Old 03-02-2006, 10:17 PM
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Question stall

isnt the 203 the all time 4x4 or did i miss understand you? I want to put a kit in the case to make it 2 or 4 wheel not all time 4, but i dont want to put locking hubs on.

is it true if you take a stock converter from say a 360cid with a 10.5 inch converter you can up the stall speed when its in a big block? I was told that it will up the stall by about 1000 when you do that but i'm not sure i belive that??

Does a stall converter with say 2200rpm stall usually stall higher or lower than that rpm rating?
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  #14  
Old 03-03-2006, 04:26 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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Stall speed depends of engine torque; hte more torque the higher the stall speed. So, most likely a converter will slip to higher rpm behind a 400 than a 360. Remeber to remove the external balance weights of the 360 converter (and replace htem with 440 weights, if needed)!
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