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Desk Top Dyno, in's and outs.
Just for everybodys FYI, when I do a DTD sim. on an engine, you'll need some info and the rest of the build particulars can be left out. Heres what info was givin to me to run a sim. (Below) From Mopwer04.
To the grey matter upstairs, this is good. We consider things like raotating mass, it's weight, piston weight, rod weight, and for sharper minds, what rings, gapped or gappless will/can do for a build. The mind can dyno some builds. And some of us aren't to bad at it. But were human, so a best educated guess is what you get. The brain can't measure everything possible, but get a ball park. Operators of dyno machines are for surely sharper since they do this for a living. Now for the program, DTD. As said before, crap in, crap out. However, theres some things it doesn't ask of the build. Like what I meantioned above. It will ask you ; Short block. It has a bunch of manufactures and there various engines. Not all, but popular ones. You can custom the bore and stroke to meet the needs or for a custom stroker. I'll seperate his info into "left" what the program needs and "Right" what the program will not ask for. 440 .030 over....Good bore 4.350 & stroke 3.75 (Oversize included) Perfect dual plane (Just type of intake. Manufacuter and style doesn't concern the program. More on this later.) .................................................. ..... edelbrock rpm intake no porting holly 750cfm carb...good.....Actaul flow numbers are needed. again, like above, manufacture not needed. lunati hydraulic voodoo cam .513intake/.533 exhaust 234/242 @ 50....Good, except, if you do not know the specs, your guessing. Here were only missing 2 things. Centerline (110) and opening (106) Otherwise, a cam carb should have it all. Web sites may not. (I hate Holleys/Lunati site, Crane tells you everything except when the grinder took a poop.) Actual timing events are the bomb. Crane and huges engines surpply this at there web sites. (Thank you ) heads are the stock 88cc chamber cast heads no porting w/2.08/1.74 stock valves. Fine. The program will give default flow numbers for the heads if none are entered. (It's guessing) .................................................1 40 dome pistons, It doesn't care, We do though. We like to know these things. 10.34:1 comp ratio, perfect. The more accurate, the better. ...............................................sto ck forged crank, Like the piston domes above. ..............................................forg ed i beam rods stock length, The material and style rod is something the computer program doesn't ask for. But the rod length has a play in power out put, so say the pros. The program doesn't call for it, but it's a good to know thing. Check out the thread here; http://www.moparchat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96075 |
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A lil'more info
About the info needed for the DTD, I'll start at the top. The program wants to know;
Short block. I spoke of this before. I'd like to add that if you have a ealry Poly or HEMI engine, your engine is not included, but a good guess can be made by the program. It just wants to know the size of the power plant and how many cyl.'s it has. Thats it. Bore-stroke-cyl.'s. Nothing more. Cylinder heads. Theres a few to chose from and in sevral states of basic idea flow. First, styles; Low performance heads, Wedge heads, (Thats most of us) Canted oval or rectangle ports. Canted? Yep, thats the Poly heads. (Or semi HEMI) and then 4 valves per head. All these styles have sub catogories. Stock ports and valves, pocket porting and fully ported with large valves. Included valve size with head flow numbers of YOUR heads at what ever meathod they were tested at. You should know the program does it in pressure drop of H2O. You just add the number. Mostly done @ 28. But you should know for sure. Don't assume. Compression ratio; Theres a comp. calc. on the program. You'll need to know a number of things. Not piston height. But, how close to the deck or how far below it is, Valve relief cc's, head cc's, gasket bore and thickness. Induction. Actuall carb CFM is king, done @ 1.5 for 4bbl carbs, 3.0 for 2bbl carbs. Why this is, I don't know. But thats how it's done. The other part is the intake. Allmost every build will use a daul plane intake. Single plane intake selection on this program adds a whopping 40 - 50 HP that just isn't there on many builds. An example would be swaping a RPM for a TorkerII. We know very well that the TorkerII swap isn't a 50 HP gain on the same engine. So lets be real about this. How ever, a engine designed with a "Taking full advantage" of a Victor with ALL the goodies will result in a serious HP engine. This is where it begins to show up better. If your building an engine with a Victor or such intake with the rest of the engine to match a serious engine, then this could be correct to use. Theres also tunnel ram, indivial runners, TPI, sequentail fire injection and forced induction. Then with that theres style and size of roots blower and Centrificals along with or without intercoolers. Percent driven (Over/under is also a question.) Exhaust. From stock to full wacko race stepped headers. We street guys mostly fall under stock manifolds and mufflers, HIPO manifold and mufflers or headers, large or small, with or without mufflers. Cam; Hyd. Solid or roller in Solid or Hyd style. You'll need to know as much as possible. Timing events are best. Crane cams and hues engines list this info for you. If you do not have the events like they list, theres a clac. on the program for this chore. But your still going to have to know intake and exhaust duration, cams centerline and opening centerline. It is mostly looks like this for performance cams driven on the street ( 110- 106 ) but you should know for sure. Cams can vary alot. Race cams have lower numbers, F.I. cams have wider numbers. Most of all, take this program with a grain of salt. Enjoy it. It's best to learn on. For $40. It's a scream and good for the price. Theres more expensive programs out there. Some are really good. Some are not as good as this. I'll let the been there done that ran the program themselfs chime in on what is and what is not good. But don't run the program and start running around telling everyone your engine makes an honest XXXXX HP and torque because it doesn't. When it comes off the dyno, it does for that day only. BEcause tomorrow conditions change makining your engine run differently. But if it's been on the dyno, I'll take your word on how much it made and thats what it'll be. Now go spend $40 and have fun. |
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i have found that the program is accurate to within 10 percent when all the info that you can get is entered. it "dynod" a corvette engine i built at 560 HP. its dynod at 425 at the wheels. 15% drivetrain (gotta love the ZF), 10% inaccurate.
i like it. its a hoot. especially strapping methanol and boost to a slant six. according to DTD you can get 1000 HP on that combo.... Michael |
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I have tried a friend's DesktopDyno years ago and it seemed kinda flaky. Perhaps the most modern version is better.
My engineer brother bought me a copy of Engine Analyser 3.0 from PerformanceTrends for Christmas several years ago, and I have since paid to upgrade it to version 3.2b http://performancetrends.com/ea-PLUS.htm In case anyone is playing with computer simulation, here's some harder to find tech info on the 5.2/5.9 Magnum V8s and below that some similar info on the 5.7 Hemi --- Here are as many 5.2 V8 Magnum (post 1992) engine technical specs as I have been able to acquire various places. Please check these dimensions and post any mistakes you find or additional stuff. Some of this stuff came from PerformanceTalk and I repost it in the hopes it may help someone else - particularly those playing around with Engine analysing computer programs. I will post 5.9 Magnum measurements later. Bore 3.91 Stroke 3.31 Connecting Rod length 6.123 inches Deck height of block 9.585 inches according to Hot Rod Magazine 'Magnum Manifesto' Aug 1998 but I suspect this is incorrect ...may only apply to 1997 MP Crate Engines...old LA spec was 9.599 inches Distance from piston quench pads to cyl head quench pads approxmately 0.050 with 9.585 deck height or 0.064 with 9.599 dk ht. 18 degree inclined valve angle Combustion Chamber size...nominal 65 cc according to Hot Rod in 'Magnum Manifesto' article in Aug 1998...62 cc according to Marlan Davis in 'High Perf Mopar Engines' ISBN 1884089518 ....62cc as measured by Ray Barton Engines on Dakota owner's 1995 5.2V8. Cylinder head intake port volume 162cc Cylinder head exhaust port volume - unknown (70 cc ?) Compression height of factory cast aluminum pistons 1.81 inches Volume of piston valve clearance 'eyelass' cut-outs: 5 cc Compression ratio 9.1 advertised (8.7 with clean metal chamber....carbon deposits said to increase ratio by at least 0.5 in first 10,000 miles of driving) See this webpage for piston picture: http://www.kb-silvolite.com/page39.htm#SECT2 Throttle body: dual 50mm bores. Chrysler patented 'Progressive Bore' necks this down to 48 mm at throttle shaft ) Theoretical Throttle Body Flow capacity: 440 cfm.....due to restrictive air intake system or 'Progressive Bore choke point, use about 400 cfm for best match Intake Manifold runner length along centerline: 15 inches. Top of runner 17.75 inches and bottom length 12.75 inches. Intake Manifold runner 'equivalent' diameter 1.59 inches Intake manifold design type: single plenum with 90% divider (almost a dual plane....intake manifold seems to be quite restrictive at high cfm flows} See this webpage for view of underside of Magnum 'beer barrel' intake manifold http://home.att.net/~flyboy01/360Dakota.html Cylinder head gasket thickness 0.047 inches Intake port flow: 208 cfm at 0.450 lift Exhaust port flow: 173 cfm at 0.450 lift See this webpage for table of intake/exhaust flow values: http://www.hughesengines.com/heads/magnum_heads.asp Intake valve diameter 1.925 inches Cam design type: mild hydraulic roller Intake valve timing: ......Lobe centerline 115.5 ......Advertised duration 251 degrees ......Opens btdc 10 degrees ......Closes abdc 61 .....maximum lobe lift 0.27 inches .....rocker arm ratio 1.6 .....gross intake valve lift 0.432 Exhaust Valve diameter 1.625 inches .....Lobe centerline 109.5 .....Advertised duration 261 .....Opens bbdc 60 degrees .....closes atdc 21 .....maximum ex lobe lift 0.27 .....rocker arm ratio 1.6 .....gross exhaust valve lift 0.432 {all of the above data can be used to show that the new cam at the factory is installed 3 degrees retarded, but timing chain wear might gradually advance this. The camshaft specs may have changed a few times since 1992 as the factory tweaked them a bit, and eliminated EGR in 1997} Streamlined type cast iron exhaust manifold .... 2.500 inch outlet in 1992, 2.125 inch outlet afterwards Approximate CFM capacity of factory exhaust system: 184 cfm at 20.4 inches water. Note that most exhaust companies test at 28 inches water. Coolant temperature 195 degrees F (180 makes little difference according to Kenne Bell but helps reduce pinging) Mgnum engine water pump allegedly pumps 100 gpm at 5000 rpm according to Larry Shepard in 'Magnum Engines' Mopar Perf book. Air and pressure at dyno: ....Society of Auto Engineers standard is 77 F, 40 F dew pt and 29.6 baro, but... .....130 F, 40 dew pt, and 29.92 seems to give better hp and torque match and is what I measure with actual Scantool on 5.9 engine in '95 truck. Notes: Factory Dakota RT exhaust seems to be about 550 cfm, resulting in +15 hp increase. According to Larry Shepard, 42 inch long primaries with 1.625 dia with 6 inch collector specs make a good 4 into 1 header specification. To use this primary length catalytic converter must be moved back behind factory installed spot. Most aftermarket headers are very short so that they can mate to existing Y pipe and cat. Hope this data helps. Please check and pass along any mistakes spotted. HankL View Public Profile Send a private message to HankL Find all posts by HankL Add HankL to Your Buddy List #2 07-29-2000, 03:35 AM HankL Registered User Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Durham, NC, USA Posts: 1,698 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have received tips by email that: (1) In the April 2000 issue of Mopar Performance News Larry Shepard writes about the new aluminum Magnum head. In the article he says that the 5.2 and 5.9 use the same cast iron Magnum head, and that head's combustion chamber is 'nominal 60cc.' Shepard also writes that the aluminum head loses more heat to the coolant, so they upped the compression ratio of the aluminum head by 1 pt of CR to compensate. I guess that makes the Aluminum Magnum head cc about 53 cc. Each cast iron Magnum head is 48 lbs, and the new Aluminum Magnum head is 25 lbs. Aluminum Magnum head is said by Shepard to make 15 HP more 'out of the box.' (2) In the Nov/Dec 1999 issue of Mopar Performance News there is a tech article about the short block assemblies. In this article they say that the deck height of the old LA blocks was 9.60, the factory Magnum blocks are 9.58, and the used shortblock assemblies from Mopar Performance they call 'seasoned' blocks are milled down to 9.56 prior to re-assembly. .Here's an old post on this very subject of the Magnum 5.2 and engine simulator specs to use: http://www.moparchat.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/001701.html Here's some of the harder-to-find 5.2 specs again, with my present day corrections from the original July 2000 post above: Deck height from centerline of block bore at crankshaft to bottom of head gasket is 9.585 inches according to Hot Rod Magazine 'Magnum Manifesto' Aug 1998 but I suspect this is only what they measured on that particular Magnum 360 crate engine....old pre-Magnum LA engine spec was 9.599 inches. In Mopar Performance News magazine MP Engineer Larry Shepard recently wrote the deck height from the factory was 9.580 inches on Magnums. Jon Smith reports that on his 1995 5.2 Magnum the piston tops were nearly flush with the top of the block. The reason the deck height measure is needed is to calculate the 'Quench Clearance' between the piston and cyl head. It is calculated this way: +9.580 deck ht +0.047 gasket thickness -6.123 rod length -1.755 piston compression ht -1.655 half of stroke of 3.31 inches -------- 0.094 inch Quench Clearance (should be 0.040 or less for good quench) Combustion Chamber size...nominal 65 cc according to Hot Rod in 'Magnum Manifesto' article in Aug 1998...62 cc according to Marlan Davis in 'High Perf Mopar Engines' ISBN 1884089518 ....62cc as measured by Ray Barton Engines on Dakota owner's 1995 5.2V8. Larry Shepard writes in MPN that the Magnum chamber is "about 60cc". Cylinder head intake port volume 153cc according to Mopar Performance. Cylinder head exhaust port volume - unknown Sealed Power replacement pistons H814P for a 1995 5.2V8 list a 1.755 compression height flat top piston. Sealed Power H655CP replacement pistons for the 5.9 list a 1.612 inch compression height, and minus 11.23 cc rectangular dish volume in the piston crown. The Engine Analyser 3.0 software predicts the 5.2 piston compression height to be about 1.759 inches if the compression ratio is a true 9.10. This would put the pistons down from the very top of the bores about 0.043 inches at top dead center. If anyone has a stock 5.2 Magnum piston they could measure please post it. Measure from top of pin hole to top of piston, then add half of pin diameter to get compression height. Compression ratio 9.1 as advertised ....carbon deposits are said to increase ratio by at least 0.5 in first 10,000 miles of driving. See this webpage for sample piston picture: http://www.kb-silvolite.com/page39.htm#SECT2 Throttle body: dual 50mm bores. Chrysler patented 'Progressive Bore' necks this down to 48 mm at throttle shaft ) Theoretical Throttle Body Flow capacity as measured by Frank at F&B: 560 cfm.....due to restrictive air intake system or 'Progressive Bore choke point, use about 330 cfm for best match because factory air filter box adds additional restriction in line with throttle body. Intake Manifold runner length along centerline: 15.5 inches. Top of runner 17.75 inches and bottom length 12.75 inches. Intake Manifold runner 'equivalent' diameter 1.59 inches Intake manifold design type: single plenum with 90% divider (almost a dual plane)....factory intake manifold seems to be quite restrictive at high cfm flows. Cylinder head gasket thickness 0.047 inches Intake port flow: 208 cfm at 0.450 lift Exhaust port flow: 173 cfm at 0.450 lift See this webpage for table of intake/exhaust flow values: http://www.hughesengines.com/heads/magnum_heads.asp 18 degree inclined valve angle Intake valve diameter 1.925 inches Cam design type: mild hydraulic roller Intake valve timing: ......Lobe centerline 115.5 ......Advertised duration 251 degrees ......Opens btdc 10 degrees ......Closes abdc 61 .....maximum lobe lift 0.27 inches .....rocker arm ratio 1.6 .....gross intake valve lift 0.432 Exhaust Valve diameter 1.625 inches .....Lobe centerline 109.5 .....Advertised duration 261 .....Opens bbdc 60 degrees .....closes atdc 21 .....maximum ex lobe lift 0.27 .....rocker arm ratio 1.6 .....gross exhaust valve lift 0.432 {all of the above data can be used to show that the new cam at the factory is installed 3 degrees retarded, but timing chain wear may change this. The camshaft specs may have changed a few times since 1992 as the factory tweaked them a bit, and eliminated EGR in 1997} Streamlined type cast iron exhaust manifold .... 2.500 inch outlet in 1992, 2.125 inch outlet afterwards. These 'Magnum' factory manifold are said by Larry Shepard to be the best flowing smallblock manifold ever - better than those HP manifolds on the 1970 era 340V8's. Approximate CFM capacity of factory exhaust system: 200 cfm at 20.4 inches water. Note that most exhaust companies test at 28 inches water. Coolant temperature 195 degrees F (180 makes little difference according to Kenne Bell but helps reduce pinging) Magnum engine water pump allegedly pumps 100 gpm at 5000 rpm according to Larry Shepard in 'Magnum Engines' Mopar Perf book. Air and pressure at dyno:....Society of Auto Engineers standard is 77 F, 40 F dew pt and 29.6 baro, but.....130 F, 40 dew pt, and 29.92 seems to give better hp and torque match and is what I measure with actual Scantool on 5.9 engine in '95 truck. Notes: Factory Indy exhaust muffler seems to be about 550 cfm rated DynoMax/Walker/Tenneco UltraFlow model, resulting in +15 hp increase over stock 230 HP truck & muffler back in 1996. Exhaust cfm must still be rated lower than 550 to take into account stock restriction of catalytic converter. Later year Rams appear to have less restrictive exhaust systems from factory resulting in increases in HP rating from original 230 to 245, then to 250 HP. Some of this increase also due to camshaft changes. According to Larry Shepard, 42 inch long primaries with 1.625 OD dia, with 6 inch collector specs make a good 4 into 1 header specification. To use this primary length catalytic converter must be moved back behind factory installed spot. Most aftermarket headers are short (20-26 inch) so that they can mate to existing Y pipe and cat. --------------- RAM MAN From: Haslett, MI posted December 28, 2000 10:58 AM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- The engine type is 90 degree V* OHV Bore and stroke is 99.2 X 84.1mm (or 3.91 X 3.31 in) Displacement 5.2L (318 cu in) Compression ratio: 9.1:1 Power (SAE net) 230 bhp @ 4,400 RPMs Torque 300 lb fts @ 3,200 RPMs Firing order is 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2 Lubrication type: Pressure feed - Full flow filtration Engine oil capacity: 4.7L (5 quarts w/filter) Cooling system: Liquid cooled - forced circulation Cylinder block - Cast Iron Crankshaft - Nodular Iron Cylinder heads - Cast Iron Combustion chambers - Wedge-High Swirl Valve Shrouding Camshaft - Nodular Cast Iron Pistons - Aluminum Alloy with Strut Connecting Rods - forged steel Valves: valve face angle is 43.25 - 43.75 degrees Head diameter intake - 48.666mm or 1.916 in exhaust - 41.250mm or 1.624 in Length overall: intake: 124.28 - 125.92 degrees Exhaust: 124.64 - 125.27 degrees Lift (zero lash) - 10.973mm (0.432 in) Stem diameter 7.899 - 7.925mm or 0.311 - 0.312 in Stem to guide clearance is 0.0254 - 0.0762mm or 0.001 - 0.003 in TB type is progressive bore compression pressure is approximately 140 psi on third revolution of crank. The cam info I have is on the R/T version: 204/208 degrees duration at .050", 458/.467" lift with the 1.6 ratio rockers. ---- from hotroddave440 of Franklin TN: I was climbing around a pile of motors at the junkyard and saw a 3100 chevy motor siting there with behive springs and grabbed myself a set and a half and took them home for kicks to see if they could be of use and I discovered they were the magnum diameter valve stem with one lock groove. In my first scenario, with the Magnum keepers and the 3100 retainer I got .060 inch more compression on the springs and .040 more clearance to the valve guide and the retainer is probably half the weight. In short using the 3100 retainers on stock mag heads could help some one using stock springs on their heads to rev just a little higher. Second scenario using the 3100 retainers and 3100 keepers I could use a LS1 spring just by machining the step in toward the guide more. I would end up with .060 more preload on the ls1 springs than the specs called for. This should keep machining to a minimum. Also there is a ton of springs for the LS1 just make sure you don't run into coil bind with the extra .060 or get your spring seats machined down, there should be plenty of meat for this. The LS1 springs in no way can be used with stock magnum retainers because the top of the beehive is too skinny compared to where the locator is in the magnum retainer, it won't sit flat on there. Let me know if this helps any one or if I am nuts ----- 5.7 Hemi Specs (all specs in inches unless specified) Engine: DaimlerChrysler Hemi V-8, pushrod, 16 valves HP & torque: 345 hp at 5,400, 375 lb-ft at 4,200 (truck); 340 hp at 5,200, 390 lb-ft at 4,000 (car) Displacement: 5.7 L (346 ci) Firing order: 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 Bore x stroke: 3.92x3.58 Compression: 9.6:1 Block: Cast iron, deep-skirt design Deck height: 9.25 Crankshaft: Nodular iron, five main bearings Main journal diameter: 2.55 Rod journal diameter: 2.12 Connecting rod: Powdered metal, 6.24 inches, 597 grams Rod length/stroke: 1.74:1 Piston: Cast aluminum, 413 grams, coated skirt, 9cc dome Rings: 1.5/1.5/3mm ring package Cylinder head: Aluminum, semi-hemispherical chamber Intake valve angle: 18 degrees Chamber volume: 85 cc Intake valve: 2.00 * about 3.2 inches from intake valve seat to metal face that mates to plastic intake manifold runners Exhaust valve: 1.55 * 1.5 inches from exhaust valve seat to exhaust flange face. Spark plugs per cyl.: Two Intake valve lift: 0.472 Exhaust valve lift: 0.460 Rocker arm ratio: 1.65:1 Valvesprings: Conical, 97 pounds closed, 242 pounds @ max lift Intake manifold: Nylon 6 material EFI: Sequential w/closed loop control Throttle-body: 80 mm, electronic from http://carcraft.com/techarticles/116...mi/index1.html Excellent 'blog' titled 'A Tale of Two Hemis' with many cut away drawings of 5.7 & 6.1 engines from 2006 Chicago Auto Show: http://ask.autoblog.com/2006/02/20/a...-7-and-6-1-v8/ other technical articles about the 5.7 David Vizard review http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0403phr_hemi/ collections of press releases http://216.120.237.3/mopar/new-mopar-hemi.html http://www.allpar.com/mopar/new-mopar-hemi.html http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/100203.html description of assembling a 5.7 at factory http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...y/1266926.html camshaft specs of 5.7 & 6.1 http://makeashorterlink.com/?M298120AC historical article about engineers who built 426 & 5.7 http://www.thehemi.com/news.php?id=20050824-1 engine shaft dyno graph by David Vizard done independently at UNC-Charlotte Motorsports official 2003 graph- questionable accuracy note how it doesn't match Vizard graph at low rpm rear wheel before/after Superchips on 5.7 with 545 auto trans according to KRC - note high drivetrain loss of three planetaries & torque converter of 545 auto truck owner rear wheels http://dynoperformance.com/search_details.php?ID=488 tests of available intake manifolds http://moparmusclemagazine.com/techa...7_hemis_dynos/ Cutaway view [img]http://www.dodgeboy.net/news/57hemi/i |
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Dead link, huhes stop publishig the flow data. Everybody was arguing what the had was correct over thees and such.
http://www.hughesengines.com/heads/magnum_heads.asp & http://www.moparchat.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/001701.html & http://www.kb-silvolite.com/page39.htm#SECT2 & http://home.att.net/~flyboy01/360Dakota.html & http://makeashorterlink.com/?M298120AC. I think I missed one or 2. Quote:
The read is really large. |
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Engine Simulations
I think DD 2000 works pretty good for a $40 program. Sure it is limited.
I'm having a grad student run an engine simulation on a program used by the Big Three automakers for one of my engines. The program costs around $25k and the instruction file is a 100 page PDF file. It requires more information than I would even know - piston temps, port wall temps, chamber temps, port lengths, bends, angles, etc. That program also predicts emissions, noise levels and other things I'm not interested in. You can even model mufflers to get the sound levels you want if you want to spend the time on it. Even with all these inputs, the grad student is still trying to "calibrate" his model to actual dyno information. There can be too many veriables to input into a program. I thought the Pro Stock teams might be using something like the program above, but Darrin Morgan at Reher-Morrison said they were using Engine Analyzer Pro program. Of course he might not tell me what they are really using. I've run the demo of that program and it looks to be a pretty good program from what I can see. I bought a copy of Dynomation years ago through SAE for $600 and it was much worse than DD 2000. Dynomation couldn't predict peak power or torque levels, nor RPM peaks. I found it too overpredict power at low RPMs and underpredict at high RPM levels. I think DD 2000 is a good place to start for someone buying their first program. If you have $30k to spend, then there are at least three programs you can buy at that level and plan on spending months trying to learn it. It's just another tool. You can buy Craftsmen or spend several times more for Snap-On. |
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