Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide!



Go Back   Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide! > Technical Forums > Performance Talk

Click here to search for Mopar cars and parts for sale.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-27-2006, 05:39 PM
BlackAce's Avatar
BlackAce BlackAce is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 147
Default 318 Part II

Ok here is mine.

I have just sent my 318 to the machine shop today. I trying to go as cheap as possible but I would like to pull about 350 - 375 hp from mine. I have a set of 302 heads and am going use 1.88/1.60 valves. I plan on using a Summit rebuild kit and the block is getting bored 30 over. What would be a good cam for this and anyone have any suggestions.

This is going in my 71 Dart with a 727.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-27-2006, 06:42 PM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Mission Viejo CA USA
Posts: 2,538
Default

There are a couple different ways to achieve this. Are you buying a new induction and exhaust system, or reusing existing pieces? What converter and gears do you have now, and are you willing to replace them if necessary? How comfortable are you porting those 302s, since they really don't flow very well?

You can make the power you're after by going with a long duration cam on those heads as-is, but you will have no bottom-end torque and will need a high-stall converter and steep rear gears. If you go to 340-360 sized ports and a matching induction system, it will be a lot easier to reach your goal while still maintaining idle quality and a decent low end. The problem is that the 302s were never meant to be a performance head, and opening up the ports enough to get the flow you need isn't easy. It will also destroy the swirl characteristics of the port even if successful.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-28-2006, 02:38 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: vantaa,finland
Posts: 4,622
Default

Is the summit rebuild kit available with higher compression height pistons, like KB's? You really need to bring the CR up in all the cases, and with the close dchamber 302 heads you want the piston top close to deck at TDC. 302 heads have very small ports, they produce good power for the amount they flow, but getting closer to 400 hp out of a streetable 318 requires some dedicated porting. If making that kind of power is your goal, how about a magnum head conversion?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-28-2006, 08:56 AM
BlackAce's Avatar
BlackAce BlackAce is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 147
Default

No I don't think they offer higher CR kits for 318's.

If I use KB 167 would I have to deck the block? Or could just get away with milling the heads or could I just use stock heads. Sorry if some of these question are repetitive. This is my first engine build and am getting a little nervous.

I would like to stick to 302 heads since I already have them but I will be taking a trip tomorrow to the U Pull it yeard and gonna look for a set or Magnum heads. If I can find one and relatively cheap then I will pick up a set. I was thinking instead of going for 400 hp like the car craft build up I thought shooting for 350 - 375 hp would be a little easier and more realistic.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-28-2006, 10:12 AM
rumblefish360's Avatar
rumblefish360 rumblefish360 is offline
Moparchat Bronze member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: C
Age: 57
Posts: 11,120
Default

The KB's should give you a zero deck height out of the box. If not, just ask the machinest to make it so. The pistons are designed to do so, but the block may be be at the same spec as the piston is designed for.

In the 400 HP 318 build up, the comp cam used is the Magnum 280* , .480 lift cam. Thats a nice off the shelf cam to use. If a little more low speed torque is needed, the extreme 268 is 8* shorter on the inatke side and should provided a better balance of intake to exhaust breathing with use of stock unported heads. Ported heads will also show themselfs well.
The 302's should have some work done to them.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-28-2006, 11:20 AM
BlackAce's Avatar
BlackAce BlackAce is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 147
Default

I noticed that the KB's are float pins and the stock 318 pistons are pressed in (mine is an 86). What would I do to changed them from pressed to float? I gave the rods to the machinist to remove the pistons. Any $$$$ I can save doing it myself I'll do it.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-28-2006, 12:06 PM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Mission Viejo CA USA
Posts: 2,538
Default

Steel-on-steel doesn't make for a very good wear surface. Rods meant for full-floating pistons have bronze bushings installed in the small end.

You have a couple options:

Pay your machinist to press the pins;
Pay your machinist to bush your existing rods;
Pay for new rods with bushings installed;
But a hydraulic press and fit your own pins.

You can buy a cheepo-Chinese press from Harbor Freight that will do the job for about $100 last time I checked.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-28-2006, 01:59 PM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: vantaa,finland
Posts: 4,622
Default

The pistons themselves are not floating or non floating. The pistons always float. But if the rod is for a floating pin, yuu need something that keeps the pin in the pisotn/rod combo withpout hurting the cylinder wall. So, the "floating pistons" only have thre lock grooves for retaining the pin, you can also use those pistons with press fit rods. Always check the pinit clearance in all pistons, very common to have it on the tight side.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-28-2006, 02:20 PM
BlackAce's Avatar
BlackAce BlackAce is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 147
Default

Well I've been thinking.

Why not just do a basic rebuild with flat top pistons and magnum heads? I would like to do this on a budget or with parts that I have now. The magnum heads are 59cc compard to 63 or 65 to 302's right? This would raise the compression correct? If I mill the heads wouldn't I get a higher compression.

If I get KB pistons I would already be $250 in the whole, for another $50 can get a rebuild kit. I think it would be best if I did something a little basic first then go for something bigger later.

The parts I have now are 302 heads, a Holley 4160 600cfm (80457), Holley 4160 750 cfm (3310) and a Holley Street Dominator. I will be looking for a set of heads tomorrow. Is that intake any good? What would be a good cam for this?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-28-2006, 03:14 PM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Mission Viejo CA USA
Posts: 2,538
Default

You don't want to mill those heads or the block either, if you use those pistons and the magnum heads. You'll already have a compression ratio of 9.875:1 with a stock deck height of 9.60, a standard Fel-Pro compressed gasket thickness of .039, and the KB167 compression height of 1.81.

This assumes that the heads actually spec out at 59cc. If the magnum heads are anything like the LA heads, this is not likely. But that's a good thing, it allows you the room to take a clean-up cut with the mill if necessary, and also to equalize the chamber sizes. If the block has been milled, or needs a clean-up cut, you will probably need to get a custom head gasket. The closed chamber magnum heads mandate that the piston be down in the hole, stock deck height with the 167 piston will be .012, combined with the Fel-Pro you have .051 piston-to-head clearance. .040 is the minimum, anything under .060 will give you the benefit of quench. So you really don't have a big range to work within, but if everything checks out to stock specs you'll be fine.

Your Holley 600 is a good fit with this buildup, match it with a cam in the 220 degree-at-.050 range like the Comp Magnum270H. You don't want a split duration cam with the magnum heads, the exhaust ports flow too good for that. Any manifold meant for an LA engine, like your Holley, won't fit magnum heads without modifying the bolt holes. Not hard to do.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-28-2006, 04:08 PM
BlackAce's Avatar
BlackAce BlackAce is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 147
Default

So the buid up would be.

KB167
Magnum heads
.039 Head Gasket
No need to mill the block or heads.
Holley 600 cfm
Comp Cams 270H
RPM Air Gap intake?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-28-2006, 05:04 PM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Mission Viejo CA USA
Posts: 2,538
Default

Make sure you get the magnum version of the manifold, part# 7577.

As for milling, it is always a good idea to check the heads and block surfaces for warpage, you may need a clean-up cut anyway. You can do this with a machinist's straight-edge and a feeler gauge. Acceptable warpage for a stock rebuild is .006, my personal standard for a performance buildup is half that. You will also want to check the block for squareness. During your post-teardown inspection, put a rod-piston assembly in the #1 cylinder and measure the deck height. Repeat using the same piston in the #2, #7, and #8 cylinders. There will likely be some difference, anything more than a couple thousandths and you should get a cleanup cut on the decks.

Don't cut more than necessary, and that goes for the cylinder bores as well. You don't gain measurable horsepower going to a .030 overbore if a .020 will do, but you do sacrifice bore stiffness and have less material left for the next rebuild.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-28-2006, 11:25 PM
dart662dp dart662dp is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: oviedo, fl
Posts: 77
Default

don't go over .440 on the cam lift on the stock magnum beehive springs remember they have a 1.6 rocker, and the stock springs will bounce around .480-.490.
mp sells a set that will take a little over .5 for around $100. any more lift than that and you are looking at cutting spring seats etc..
the mags work good for highvelocity, low rpm as is. i run a set on my 79 360 with a *218/*228 .441 (.470 with magnum rocker) cam and a 650 dp with headers and msd. forged dish pistons, 9:1 comp. the cam has 0 overlap, so it wants 89 to run right
I had nothing but trouble from the first MP M1 single plain intake, water ports so core shifted they overhung the raises on the gaskets and leaked water into the motor. tried another block, same thing, had the machinist fine toothe comb the heads again, same thing. orlando dodge told me everything from i used the wrong color sealer, cracked heads, and i needed to "have a sleeve to fit the intake to the heads!" crock of sh...
i ordered the edelbrock performer rpm (POLAR) gap for the magnum, had to wait on a list forever, bolted it on and it still runs almost 2 years later trouble free. the mp push rods did work at least
these things would work alot better with some serious exhaust port work, pretty small in stock form, the stock exh valve size is fine. i think a 2.02 intake with nothing more than a bowl blend, leave the ports alone, they are pretty tight as is, not alot of room to work, kinda thin in places, would work nicely too.
you can also use chebrolet rockers, so going back to a 1.5 would be easy.

the magnum heads oil like a chevy (through each pushrod) so don't expect alot of oil pressure at a hot idle, and be sure your lifters have oil holes in the top, as well as a hole in each end of the puhrod.

the million bolt valve covers are great, and the bolt down like a ford intake is pretty silck too, nice and easy, and pretty much leak/slobber free. the bypass hose from the h2o pump to the intake can be a llittle tricky.

have you thought about the 308 casting 360 heads? maybee some 915s?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-29-2006, 01:08 AM
rumblefish360's Avatar
rumblefish360 rumblefish360 is offline
Moparchat Bronze member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: C
Age: 57
Posts: 11,120
Default

Between dart662dp & 72 Challenger, there advice and thinking on this subject is excellent. This thread is really shaping up.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-30-2006, 02:37 PM
BlackAce's Avatar
BlackAce BlackAce is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 147
Default

The 318 I have in my Dart now has 360 heads on it. Not sure which casting it is.

The set up on that is.

318ci with 360 heads, 509 cam, TRW 10.6:1 forged pistons, stock crank and rods,Edlebrock Torker 340 intake, and a Holley 750.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-30-2006, 04:21 PM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Mission Viejo CA USA
Posts: 2,538
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAce
The 318 I have in my Dart now has 360 heads on it. Not sure which casting it is.

The set up on that is.

318ci with 360 heads, 509 cam, TRW 10.6:1 forged pistons, stock crank and rods,Edlebrock Torker 340 intake, and a Holley 750.
And your reason for replacing this is...?

Granted the parts matching could be better, but is this engine worn out? Or just not performing the way you would like? On your first post when you said you were building an engine to go in your Dart I just sort of figured you were upgrading a stock setup. I guess I should have paid more heed to the part where you mentioned you had a 727.

If you are trying to build a motor with more low-end torque (I'm guessing what you have now is a screamer at high revs but doesn't pull very well off the line, right?) then I would make one recommendation different from what's been said so far. The 600 CFM carb will be a disappointment to you based on what you're running now. A good fit would be the Holley 670 Street Avenger, part# 0-80670. This won't have quite the low end of a 600, but it will give you more top end. The difference will be subtle, so if you already have the 600 and are on a budget, keep it. If you're buying new anyway, consider the 670.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-30-2006, 05:13 PM
BlackAce's Avatar
BlackAce BlackAce is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 147
Default

LOL!!!! Actually I should have clearified a little better.

That 318 with the 509 cam is what is in my Dart currently and was already set up when I got it. This the one that I posted about when I was doing the leakdown test and compression test.

http://www.moparchat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96670

http://www.moparchat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96469

I the other 318 that I have at the Machine Shop now. This is the one that I am going to rebuild. The current motor is smoking and since I had the other 318 I thought I would rebuild this one myself since I have never rebuilt a motor before. Then tear the other motor down and see how it was.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-30-2006, 05:24 PM
BlackAce's Avatar
BlackAce BlackAce is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 147
Default

Also what would be a good gear set up for my new engine, 3.55's ok?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-30-2006, 05:38 PM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Mission Viejo CA USA
Posts: 2,538
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAce
This the one that I posted about when I was doing the leakdown test and compression test.
Oh yeah, that one. I guess I was a little critical of it, wasn't I?

3.55's will be fine with the setup you have planned. Don't go any taller, and if you want more jump off the line you could go to 3.91 also, but that will limit your highway speed. What tires are you using?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-02-2006, 01:12 PM
BlackAce's Avatar
BlackAce BlackAce is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 147
Default

They are 24 inch but I don't think I would be taking to the track much.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-02-2006, 01:54 PM
72Challenger 72Challenger is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Mission Viejo CA USA
Posts: 2,538
Default

Then the 3.55s will be fine. On the highway at 70 with those short tires and figuring 8% converter slip, you'll be turning 3750 RPM. If you went to 3.91s you'd be up to almost 4150. And with such sort tires the 3.55s will launch almost like 3.91s would with a more conventional 26 inch diameter tire.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
need help with a part# gm5226 Performance Talk 2 10-20-2006 11:44 AM
What is this part? Jim13 Restoring your MoPar (Tricks & techniques) 4 03-14-2006 06:55 PM
K&N part # Freemans30th Ram Truck Chat 0 03-03-2003 06:38 PM
K&N part #s openclasspro Ram Truck Chat 4 08-27-2001 05:46 PM
Looking For Part slepr1 Performance Talk 0 11-22-2000 09:12 PM




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
. . . . .