318 vs. 360

[dasgift]

I have been told by many that the 318 is a better motor than the 360. i have also been told that it is not true. i am undecided on which motor to use for my 85 w150, turning 38's on D60's front and rear. i am looking for a lively, gobs of bottom end torque setup in a SB. Any input is appreciated!!

[Groundhawg]

The 318 is a really good motor (dependable, fuel mileage, lasts forever) but for all out performance you'd be better off to go 360. I had a 318 in my '87 with 35's and I decided it wasn't enough. I skipped the 360 and went to a 440 big block. You can build a 360 to make as much power as a 440 though and keep your transmission

[451Mopar]

How much torque you looking for.

A 360 can be built to make around 400+ ft/lbs of torque.
A 318 will have less torque because of it's smaller size and stroke.
You can build a stroked 360 (about 408 cid) that will make even more power, maybe 450 ft/lbs?

If you need 500+ ft/lbs torque, your probbably better off going with a big block swap.

[pcrmike]

I have built 360's with up to 450 ft. lbs, and a 408 that tipped at 510. A lot depends on your heads and cam. :-)PCRMike

[dasgift]

I'm looking for SB power right now. If i can get 400+ Ft/lbs out of the 360 and it still be dependable maybe i'll go that route. i want low end power not high rev top end.

The 318 is impressive with their longevity! I've only had my truck for a few years but the odometer says 160K (probably 170k+ with the 35's that have plenty of mileage on them) and has pushed plenty of snow and still runs good, tired but good.

I want to build something strong and dependable. if i had money, i'd stick a viper motor in there but, i don't so....i'll build a SB. I'm torn between rebuilding my 318, finding a 318 marine motor for the forged rotating mass, or going 360 since there is no replacement for displacement.

[pcrmike]

I get plenty of use out of the 360's. The real diff is use a good quality piston, a HV (NOT high pressure) oil pump and good oil. :-)PCRMike

[451Mopar]

I was being a bit more realistic on the torque numbers, not too many daily drivers with 10:1 compression and fully ported iron heads.
I was also, estimating peak torque in the 3,000 RPm range.

PCRMIKE, What all did you do to that 360.

My RamCharger has the KB #232 Quench Dome pistons at a calculated 9.7:1 compression ratio (milled the block and heads to get the right quench distance.)
The heads are milidly ported (mostly the bowl) 360 heads with stainless 2.02"/1.60" valves.
The cam is on older Hughes HE0914AL (208/214 duration @ 0.050", 0.489"/0.501" lift with 1.6:1 rockers, and I think 112 LSA)
Intake is the Edelbrock Performer with AFB style Edelbrock 650 carb.
The exhaust is cheapie headers and 2.5" dual exhaust.

I haven't dynoed this, but I think it makes about 400 ft/lbs and 300+ HP.
it got the ramcharger (#4900 weight) into the 16 second 1/4 mile @ 84 MPH, at 6,000 ft altitude with 3.20:1 gears (never got out of second gear.)

[pcrmike]

According to the last 360 I built for a guy for use in a 2wd half-ton, it was with ported iron heads, polished chambers (runs nicely on 87) stainless 1.88" valves, 9.8:1, Isky supercam .435/.435 at 262*, cam advanced 2*, standard Comp lifters (anti-pump), stock crank, balanced rods, Speed pro FT pistons with VRs, and small tube headers. It put out nearly 440 lb/ft at 2500 RPM, and was above 400 ft. lbs from 2000 to 4500 RPM. The dyno sheet showed the TQ curve flat as Kansas, but the HP suffered a bit from the advance of the cam. It peaked at 5250 RPM at 435 HP. The HP would have been up by maybe 10 and TQ down by 20 if we had installed straight up. The show was about over by 6 grand, though. Very strong down low, super quick in midrange, but not a screamer. He has 3.23 gears in a 79 D150 and can blow the rears away in 1st, squeal them in 2nd and bark 'em hard in 3rd. We are only running a 600 cfm Eddy on an M1 DP intake, but true, the heads do have extensive work in them. I ported, polished and detailed for over 80 hours on them. We don't have a 1/4 strip around here, so I don't know for sure what the slip would read, but he is about to go to a 3.55 8 3/4 and traction bars, cuz there is no way he can make it hook up right now. We put a A-518 from a big van in it, so it gets pretty decent MPG. I modded the valve body for firmer shifts. When done right, these can bite the butt off of many big-blocks, or at least a BB driver caught off guard. :-)PCRmike

[dasgift]

HV oil pump is a must! i will put forged pistons in the motor. i've read small port heads on the 360 produces lots of low end power.

If was thinking of using a RV cam, Dual plane intake, and forged pistons regardless of motor. haven't decided on heads or carb size yet as i haven't read enough.

[pcrmike]

I forgot, the heads were the open chamber "516" heads from a smogger, not the small valve ones. Less carb is better when going for TQ. I had to fatten up the fuel (jetting) for the 360, but it works flawlessly. :-)PCRMike

[dave571]

Originally Posted by dasgift

HV oil pump is a must! i will put forged pistons in the motor. i've read small port heads on the 360 produces lots of low end power.

If was thinking of using a RV cam, Dual plane intake, and forged pistons regardless of motor. haven't decided on heads or carb size yet as i haven't read enough.

Do some research on your oil pump selection.

oil pressure is what protects the motor. Pressure is the result of flow through the restriction of the bearing clearances.

The main purpose of a HV oil pump is to restore oil pressure in worn engines, not to provide better lubrication in a fresh motor with good tolerances.

Not trying to start a flame off. Lots of race motors actually use pumps that reduce oil flow.

[hapsmith55]

Hi Fella's and any Gals out there. I have posted about what to do with my 46 Coupe. I have a motor question/ delemia. I have a 318 that I had planned to rebuild and put in my oldie coupe, I had a guy tell me I should put 360 heads on it, makes it breath better he said. Then I had some else tell me advise, why not just put the 360 in there, then out a 727 torqueflite behind it. What do you all think? After reading most of you ' all's post here, I think you a very qualified to answer that question. I plan to drive the car from time to time. I like the push back in the seat feeling, plus blowing the bow ties off along with some of those blue ovals. I'd never consider sub framing this old MOPAR with a camaro, as I have heard many doing ukkkkk.... Look forward to your advise.
Hap Building a 46 Plymouth Club Coupe Special De Lux, maroon.

[B1owner]

Originally Posted by dave571

Lots of race motors actually use pumps that reduce oil flow.

Actually, for the most part, this is untrue. Most RACE engines us alot of bearing clearances for lower friction (some use .003). Of course it depends on the kind of racing you do, but excessive clearances are common practice on race engines.,Not "good" tight clearances.. and loose race clearances warrant the need for HV pumps.....

[451Mopar]

Sounds cool, Yep, the 360 runs good. I think theres more in it, If I make a few changes. I did suprise a guy at the track with the RamCharger. He had a newer Chevy Truck, and I ran over a second quicker than him, and he must of had deep gears, said he was in overdrive at the end of the track, and I was still in second

Mike, that engine build up sounds pretty close to what I'm running, but with a better flowing intake and probbably heads too.
I used the Performer because it was about the only intake that has the EGR provision. I thought I might have to emission the engine, so I got that intake.

My heads started out as the cheapie 360 rebuilds from AeroHead (Indy cylinder head), Then I bowl ported them, Pretty close to a full port job on the exhaust side (you know how bad the exhaust flows), and just some minor clean-up/porting and gasket matching on the intake side, along with gasket matching the intake manifold.

When I estimated the flow for Desktop Dyno, I used a fairly consertive flow number of only 219 cfm @ 0.500" lift. Desktop Dyno claims 414 ft/lbs @ 3,500 RPM and 322 HP @ 4,500 RPM, with 395 ft/lbs @ 2,000 RPM.

I think my heads probbably flow better than what numbers I used since I think a stock head flows close to 205-210 cfm @ 0.500"?

[pcrmike]

Good luck on the '46. The 360 heads are larger chambered than the 318 heads, so you would lose a point or so of compression unless you replaced the pistons too. Otherwise sounds good.

As to the HV pump, if you are streeting it, the HV pump is better at not "washing out" the bearings. THe validity is there in your argument about the pressure, yes, but like a buddy of mine got a HP pump that pushed 90PSI, and it was too much. A good HV will push about 60 psi cold, hot, and in between. Two different schools of thought, both valid, and respected, but you must choose based on your need. One more consideration: If you are building it for long term use, if you DO go with a HP pump, be advised you need to use a new, hardened pump shaft (maybe a good idea anyway) and you will also wear the rear gear of the cam too. This may be negligible, but I would suggest, if you go HP, replace that drive shaft every 50K miles. :-)PCRmike

[TK]

Gobs of low end torque?
318 head 360, if you will keep it under 4500, use the stock 318 valves too. Clean up the bowl a tad, don't get any bigger than the valve size. DONT touch the exhaust port, just under the valve. 302 casting closed chamber heads will work the best out of them all.
cam should be in the 250-260 adv/dur range, get as much lift as possible, use the same duration on intake and exhaust. NO headers, and a spreadbore carb, here it goes..................
No SERIOUS mud truck should EVER HAVE A THERMOQUAD. They flood when on they're side, and when the bounce. (not open for argument dw, I have been on my side before) Best carb? A baffled Edelbrock/AFB, or a Q-Jet.
Q-Jet being the best. (One center located float bowl)

[dwc43]

Sorry tk, but Thermoquads DO NOT flood when tilted. Been there too. They use the same metering rods and jets like your edel junk does and they have tall rear vents. To get it to flood, you'll have to trun it upside down. 318 360 head wont pull for crap past 3000. Pretty lame for perofrmance.

[TK]

I am leaving for the weekend, but I will say this, if I dont make it back before sunday night..

Dw? You have no clue what you are talking about. A thermoquad floods when tipped, just like a holley floods when climbing (Holley makes cool offraod carbs though, with sponges and neat stuff, they are great!). Circle track and drag racing are totally different than actually tipping a carburator over. I know this because I have ran all three, and somewhere, I have pictures of my 318 power mud trucks engine, it had a half of a Q-jet on it. Don't remember the model, but it was a hell of a lot better than the Carter it came with stock.
The QJ is best, because it has one float bowl, a thermoterd, has one on each side. It would only stand to reason that tipping it one way would starve the far bowl, and tipping it the other way would lean flood the far float bowl right?
No, couldn't be, that would just mae too much sense? There are baffles you can put in an edelbrock to lessen the flooding, but they still don't hold a candle to a Q-Jet. I know, I know, you cirlcetrack 365's on the pavemnt sideways with your thermoquad and it outpowers the predators and demons at the strip, and your steel beded sweptlind does under a 15 second 1/4 mile, and you drove a Q-jet power racecar once and it wasn't set up right and the secondaries came open and you couldn't react fast enough and it sent you sideways and you almost died.
Fact is, you need to quit badmouthing Q-jets untill you learn something about them.
LIke I said, if you have a spreadbore manifold, and are looking for a reliable, safe, carb you can tilt, and bounce, get a Q-jet, they are the best reaplcement offraod carb I know of.
And, I have also built 318 head 360's, so has PCRmiike, and we will both tell you, GOBS of low end power!
I gotta go, you have fun dw.

[dwc43]

I plan on having fun. I also have the thermoquad 4x4 RamCharger ready to go. Elt me know when you want to go for a ride and I'll show you how wrong you are. And I know about the quadrajunk. And it was set up for that car it was on. They have a tendency to screw up when they feel like it, just like that one did. I had no trouble reacting to it, nor did I almost kill myself. Your awfull funny. I laugh at lot at you here lately. Music City Dragway is waiting on you too. Bring your extra shoes, cause your going to be walking back to tundra land.

[Frank]

Originally Posted by dwc43

I plan on having fun. I also have the thermoquad 4x4 RamCharger ready to go. Elt me know when you want to go for a ride and I'll show you how wrong you are. And I know about the quadrajunk. And it was set up for that car it was on. They have a tendency to screw up when they feel like it, just like that one did. I had no trouble reacting to it, nor did I almost kill myself. Your awfull funny. I laugh at lot at you here lately. Music City Dragway is waiting on you too. Bring your extra shoes, cause your going to be walking back to tundra land.

Oh brother...

[rumblefish360]

Originally Posted by Frankendart72

Oh brother...

Yea, you aint kidding.

[rumblefish360]

Originally Posted by dasgift

I have been told by many that the 318 is a better motor than the 360. i have also been told that it is not true. i am undecided on which motor to use for my 85 w150, turning 38's on D60's front and rear. i am looking for a lively, gobs of bottom end torque setup in a SB. Any input is appreciated!!

The idea of the 318 being a beter engine comes from the general publics view of long term seeing what the corp. has been doing, how long they have been useing the engine and how many are out there.
The 360 gets a bad wrap from being introduced just before the harder emmisions area came in. The addition of extra heat and problems with that, like on the plastic part of the T-Q, vapor lock, leaking valve covers from extra heat, and so on give the 360 a bad wrap.
The only real difference in the engines is a larger journal crank and the bore and stroke. They don't swap oil pans and have a different bracket on one side. Thats it.
For more torque, use the 360.

[dasgift]

no headers? not even small tubes?? i'm not too fond of cast manifolds!

i will go with a Q-Jet. i have heard a lot good things about them.

Sounds like 318 head 360 is the way to go. what size carb should i look into?

[rumblefish360]

Originally Posted by hapsmith55

Hi Fella's and any Gals out there. I have posted about what to do with my 46 Coupe. I have a motor question/ delemia. I have a 318 that I had planned to rebuild and put in my oldie coupe, I had a guy tell me I should put 360 heads on it, makes it breath better he said. Then I had some else tell me advise, why not just put the 360 in there, then out a 727 torqueflite behind it. What do you all think? After reading most of you ' all's post here, I think you a very qualified to answer that question. I plan to drive the car from time to time. I like the push back in the seat feeling, plus blowing the bow ties off along with some of those blue ovals. I'd never consider sub framing this old MOPAR with a camaro, as I have heard many doing ukkkkk.... Look forward to your advise.
Hap Building a 46 Plymouth Club Coupe Special De Lux, maroon.

Were did you post about this. Basicly you pirated the thread.
360 heads on a 318 do not show a decent gain unless your hitting the cam and compression up a bit. This combo is good (If properly cammed and such) for 12's. Better off to use a 318 head on a 318 for most cases.
Theres the 302 casting to look for and a Magnum head is a good swap to do.

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Frankendart72

Oh brother...

Originally Posted by rumblefish360

Yea, you aint kidding.

I aint the one that challanged TK to a drag race. I am the one that said I'd run his truck title for title. And I still have not seen him shoe up in Tn. at the Music City Dragway. Maybe he's on his way since he said he was going away for the weekend. I hope so. I got a buyer for his truck already. He better bring several pairs of shoes, cause it's a long walk back from Tn. to tundra land. Bring it on Tk, Bring it on .... you'll drive over, but you'll walk back. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aspen77RT]

Originally Posted by dodgetruckboy

The QJ is best, because it has one float bowl, a thermoterd, has one on each side. It would only stand to reason that tipping it one way would starve the far bowl, and tipping it the other way would lean flood the far float bowl right?
No, couldn't be, that would just mae too much sense? There are baffles you can put in an edelbrock to lessen the flooding, but they still don't hold a candle to a Q-Jet. I know, I know, you cirlcetrack 365's on the pavemnt sideways with your thermoquad and it outpowers the predators and demons at the strip, and your steel beded sweptlind does under a 15 second 1/4 mile, and you drove a Q-jet power racecar once and it wasn't set up right and the secondaries came open and you couldn't react fast enough and it sent you sideways and you almost died.
Fact is, you need to quit badmouthing Q-jets untill you learn something about them.
LIke I said, if you have a spreadbore manifold, and are looking for a reliable, safe, carb you can tilt, and bounce, get a Q-jet, they are the best reaplcement offraod carb I know of.
And, I have also built 318 head 360's, so has PCRmiike, and we will both tell you, GOBS of low end power!
I gotta go, you have fun dw.

Got to agree with DTB one this one. For off-road the Q-jet is best. I havent run one in a awhile though. Currently running an Edelbrock 600 cfm on the truck. Just finnished with the rebuild on it this morning. Super easy to rebuild and adjust. It's been on the truck for 4 years and hardly had to mess with it to keep it in tune. UNLIKE the holleys I used to run on the truck. What a tuning and constant tuning headache.

[rumblefish360]

No DW, it's the pointless babble going on.

[TK]

It's OK rumble, he has been breathing Cam2 fumes again............
(Like I am going to drive all the way down to TN just to race some ugly black truck.) (I already called him out, with time slips and window painting pics, but nooooooo)
I am heading out, you guys have fun.
Oh, and build the 360, for the most torque, (listen to Rumblefish) they are a good motor, not quite the longevity as a 318, but so close most will live forever, however, IMO.

[TK]

Got to agree with DTB one this one. For off-road the Q-jet is best.

Some of us just are so brand blind we fail to see the benifits parts from the others offer, no biggie.

Oh, and DW? MY ramcharger has 42.5's, and 60's on it now, you sure? It is TBI too, IT will run upside down! HA!
OK, I feel like I am in High school again, the fish are calling.

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by dodgetruckboy

It's OK rumble, he has been breathing Cam2 fumes again............
(Like I am going to drive all the way down to TN just to race some ugly black truck.) (I already called him out, with time slips and window painting pics, but nooooooo)
I am heading out, you guys have fun.
Oh, and build the 360, for the most torque, (listen to Rumblefish) they are a good motor, not quite the longevity as a 318, but so close most will live forever, however, IMO.

We don't use Cam 2 And anyone like you can paint anything they wont on the window. I think I'll paint 9.25 on mine, so I beat you ... lol!! And brand loyal has nothing to do wit picking the best carb.