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  #1  
Old 08-20-2006, 08:16 PM
69BarracudaFS 69BarracudaFS is offline
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Default 318 rods in 360 engine

Hi!
Can I use 1970 318 floating pin rods in a 1980 360 block? I´d like to keep them because of the floating pins. The new pistons will accept floating and pressed pins. I heard 360 rods are stronger, this engine is for torque not for rpm.
Thanks
Christia
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  #2  
Old 08-20-2006, 09:59 PM
Shaun Shaun is offline
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Default pins

You can use 360 rods and still have floaters. You may bush them,or not but make sure the machine shop drills an 1/8th inch hole on the very top of the rod to help oil in.
You can use the lighter 318 rods,but I wouldn't for a torque monster. But if you do anyway,it will throw the balance way out,so you will have to have your whole rotating assembly balanced-which you should do anyway with new pistons and pins(at least I hope you are). The only way you could get around having to rebalance,is you'd have to get a piston,pin,ring,rod and rod bearing combo that had the same reciprocating and dead weight.
Good luck,
Shaun
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  #3  
Old 08-21-2006, 01:20 AM
TK TK is offline
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The 318 rods will work with a torque monster, no prob. They aren't THAT much weaker, and are fine for 400HP.
(Fine for the light 360 piston too)
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  #4  
Old 08-21-2006, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 69BarracudaFS
Hi!
Can I use 1970 318 floating pin rods in a 1980 360 block? I´d like to keep them because of the floating pins. The new pistons will accept floating and pressed pins. I heard 360 rods are stronger, this engine is for torque not for rpm.
Thanks
Christian
Now some info from someone that uses them. You do NOT want to use the '70 casting. It's too weak. Only use the '68 and '69 casting. These are quite a bit lighter than the 360 rods and will improve acceleration by lowering rotating mass.

We use these rods in all of your 365 limited race engines. We make over 400hp with them. IF you get used rods, you must magnaflux them to check for cracks and flaws,then resize then using ARP rod bolts. Then you must shot peen and polish them. After that it will hold up to what ever you throw at it.

You can bush the 360 rods, but it will cost you more than it will to use the 318 rods. Already checked on it, plus you don't get the benifit of the lighter rods. The floating pins a must, it really prevents galling a pin and piston and destroying an engine.

You also need to have all the rods weight matched. Your pistons will need to be weight matched an then the whole rotating assembly balanced. If you can afford it, go internal. It gives you more converter/flywheel choices and it will live longer cause it's more accurate. It's a must to do this since the weights on the rods and pistons have changed. If you don't do this, the engine will shake itself to pieces in short order, since it will be out of balance.

If you need any more help on the subject, just let me know and I'll help you out on it. ;
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  #5  
Old 08-21-2006, 11:16 AM
TK TK is offline
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64-73 use the same exact rod, the casting # changed in 72, but still, the same rod..................
I wonder how my 500HP 318 survived all these years, making no less than 400HP, with those junk rods? It was a "70" 318.
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  #6  
Old 08-21-2006, 01:30 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Keep in mind that a lot of "it will work" or "it won't work" depends a lot on the application this rod will be used in. dwc43's application is an oval track, paved, 5/8" mile in length, RPMs probably doesn't vary over 1000RPM anywhere on the track. A 100 lap race for him probably puts more stress on a set of rods than most folks will put on that same rod in one year of oval racing and maybe more stress than a set of drag rods would ever see in years.

As for me, I would never use a set of stock rods in any application---as long as the rules allow replacements. It's just too risky for racing and can easily be risky for a hot street application. And, by the time you have a set of stock rods resized, new bushings, good bolts, beams polished, balanced---you have almost as much invested as a moderate priced set of aftermarket rods, especially if you need two sets to make one good set.
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  #7  
Old 08-21-2006, 10:14 PM
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There is two particular casting numbers used on the '68 and '69 rods. Mikes Speed shop can actually get me these rods new according to them. I had several sets so I have not bought any from them.
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  #8  
Old 08-21-2006, 11:06 PM
it's all dodge it's all dodge is offline
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eagle rods are around $250 ish at Mancini, I think they are about 17% lighter than the 340 rods I replaced, new, don't have to mess with them
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  #9  
Old 08-22-2006, 01:39 AM
TK TK is offline
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Agree....

dw? I checked my books, and they agree with me, the casting # changed in 72, but the same rod till 73. 64-71 273/318LA used the same rod, no change. Quit making stuff up please.
I have heard bad things about Eagle rods, somewhere, I have never used them myself, I always used stock rods, ot the MP's.
Sanborn will know more about eagle rods, I am sure.

Casting# on my 70 rods, 1618699
# on my 67 Rods, 1618699
# on my 73 rods, 2899486
Rods appear to be identical, both in size, shape, and weight.
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  #10  
Old 08-22-2006, 02:19 AM
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I did not make anything up. Got it straight from Mikes Speed Shop. There's several cating numbers, not just one. THey have a whole book listing them. Since I must run stock rods, this is what we use. Matter of fact while looking for rods Mike is the one that turned me on to these and how to use them so they will survive. Better do better research next time,tk.
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  #11  
Old 08-22-2006, 08:46 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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I have never used Eagle Rods. Know lots of people that do with success---in limited HP applications(to us). Also know people that have had failures with Eagles. That's the problem, consistency. They are probably OK to 500HP. After that, I would get concerned in our application(oval track). Street and occasional drag use they are probably just fine.

Let me explain our application. We race oval track, our 408 is at 800HP, we turn it whatever is necessary---up to 8800 if necessary. Even our 358 is 760HP and we go to whatever RPM wise(well over 9000). For us, only Carillo or Lentz is acceptable. So our application is a little different that most folks.
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  #12  
Old 08-22-2006, 01:35 PM
TK TK is offline
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Quote:
Better do better research next time,tk
I did, you didn't listen.

So, the 318 full floating rods should work just fine in a mild torque street motor, right? I would say so, I didn't have a rod failure twisting my 318 to 7500, making 500+HP, and i had the "70" rods that are somehow different than the 68 or 69's.............
Those rods will be put into service again, in a couple weeks, making about 350-380HP.
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  #13  
Old 08-22-2006, 08:22 PM
Shaun Shaun is offline
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I don't see any differences in 318 rods from 68-73. I agree with TK.
Fact of the matter is though,that if you want a torker engine,you need a rod that's a little stronger. And if it's only between the 318 and 360 rods,go with the 360's and float 'em. Just make sure you drill that oil hole on the top and get her balanced.
Shaun
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  #14  
Old 08-23-2006, 12:14 AM
425W5 425W5 is offline
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If you are going to run a 500HP or less motor then you should run the Eagle rod they are lite at about 605-610 grams compared to the 360 rod at about 760 grams but make sure you run a lite piston at no more than 620 grams(stock is 740 with pin) with the pin that in it's self will put to much stress on that lite rod and as for RPM's they will go to 7500 RPM with no problem.That will give you a lot of accelaration out of the hole with lighter rotating weight and put less stress on the main caps and block so they live longer.
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  #15  
Old 08-23-2006, 12:15 AM
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pishta pishta is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodgetruckboy
64-73 use the same exact rod, the casting # changed in 72, but still, the same rod..................
.
Uh, no. Not exactly. Look at the offset. 1618699 had an offset of .0486, 2899496 had an offset of .100, the "other" 318 rod (74-86) was press pinned from the start and had no offset (Taylor/Hofer- Pg. 45)If you drill the oil hole, may want to look into drilling it right where the little end starts, up into the pin boss at a 45 degree angle, inboard of course.
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  #16  
Old 08-23-2006, 12:27 AM
TK TK is offline
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The 496 rod was the 340 rod, the 486 318 rod, had the .0500 offset, same as the 699 rod. For some reason, even though they are diffent casting #'s, they give the same part# (between the later 318 floater rod, and the 340 rod). (but, like the 72-73, and 64-71 rods, seem to be the "same" rod with diffrent casting#'s ???) I may be wrong.
I just did learn something Pishta, I thought 340 and 318 rods, were the same. Now, it apprears the casting is the same, but with a different offset......
But share the same part#......
errrrr
Is the pin offset for cylinder load, you think?
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  #17  
Old 08-23-2006, 12:29 AM
TK TK is offline
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Oh, the oiling hole, doesn't the 360 already have them? I have a set of rods, from a 69 D600 318, they have an oiling hole, casting# 3870404, my books don't list that rod.............but it looks identical to the others.
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  #18  
Old 08-23-2006, 12:55 AM
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Biggrin

Quote:
Originally Posted by pishta
Uh, no. Not exactly. Look at the offset. 1618699 had an offset of .0486, 2899496 had an offset of .100, the "other" 318 rod (74-86) was press pinned from the start and had no offset (Taylor/Hofer- Pg. 45)If you drill the oil hole, may want to look into drilling it right where the little end starts, up into the pin boss at a 45 degree angle, inboard of course.
There's also the difference in weights which effects balance as well as the different offsets. If you drill the rods for oil holes in the small end, you want it on the top. Not the sides. On the side it weakens the rod in that area. On top it keeps the pin oiled and it cools the bottom side of the piston.
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  #19  
Old 08-23-2006, 11:30 AM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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Quote:
On top it keeps the pin oiled and it cools the bottom side of the piston
How does it cool the bottom side of the piston?
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  #20  
Old 08-23-2006, 01:05 PM
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duuh, it must be pressurized,

uhh, no Im kidding.
Sad thing is, DW is not.
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  #21  
Old 08-23-2006, 04:12 PM
69BarracudaFS 69BarracudaFS is offline
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Thanks a lot for your replies, I´ll stay with the 360 rods, so I don´t have to rebalance ($$$). This is my first rebuild and I learn new things every day... this is a great forum!
Christi
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  #22  
Old 08-23-2006, 07:26 PM
Billydelrio Billydelrio is offline
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I have 20+ sets of stock 273, 318, 340, and 360 rods out in the shop. I do recall the offset on the big end being different on several sets of them. Just a few years ago, I measured the difference to show a few local guys that the offset did differ. When I get the time, I will try to do a few measurements and post the results for all to see. I would probably use the smaller 273/318 rods for most of my lower budget racing applications as they are lighter in the beam. However, on a street/torque application, I would use the larger rod. The larger rod will take more abuse before bending and twisting due to non compressable liquids getting into the cyliinder.
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  #23  
Old 08-23-2006, 11:16 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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Quote:
duuh, it must be pressurized,

uhh, no Im kidding.
Sad thing is, DW is not.
So what you are telling us is that DWC has those pressurized piston pin oiling rods that only came on small blocks that got an oil pump gasket and showed up only in his shop!
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  #24  
Old 08-24-2006, 02:56 AM
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Yeah, thats what Im saying, Crazy things happen in Shelbyville, I should visit there some day, as I truly must see this stuff with my own two eyes.
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  #25  
Old 08-24-2006, 03:46 AM
TK TK is offline
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Truth is, the oiling hole was to lube the cylinder on the 360, and HD engines, or so I thought, oil on the bottom of the poiston dome means one thing, CARBON! (On the underside too, bad idea!)
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  #26  
Old 08-24-2006, 03:47 AM
TK TK is offline
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Oh, yeah, any of your rods will work, IMO, it's just your choice!
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  #27  
Old 08-25-2006, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodgetruckboy
Truth is, the oiling hole was to lube the cylinder on the 360, and HD engines, or so I thought, oil on the bottom of the poiston dome means one thing, CARBON! (On the underside too, bad idea!)
Yeah, and that hole was in the big end cap mating surface. Ones I have seen were small holes, like 1/8-1/16 holes drilled UP into the pin boss. I got it! Use a gun drill bit and drill a small passage right up through the upper bearing and rod body to pressurize the pin bore. Seems alot of work to hit the pin with oil....:flip: Aww forget it...
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  #28  
Old 08-25-2006, 04:26 PM
TK TK is offline
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Or get a plastic dipper off of a briggs and straaton, I run them on my 365's, and turn 6800RPM all day long.
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  #29  
Old 08-25-2006, 10:11 PM
Shaun Shaun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodgetruckboy
Truth is, the oiling hole was to lube the cylinder on the 360, and HD engines, or so I thought, oil on the bottom of the poiston dome means one thing, CARBON! (On the underside too, bad idea!)
The oil hole, an 1/8 inch on the very top of the piston side,is drilled for and only to keep the pin oiled for floating piston/pin applications-especially when the builder chooses to go metal to metal instead of bushing them(and they do a lot). AND this is not for a HD engine,or 360,it is for any and all applications,when you go from pressed pins to floaters.
I have no idea about keeping the underside of the piston cool,by doing it-sounds like a tall tale.
Shaun
-There's no replacement for displacement
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