PDA

View Full Version : Old 413 Flathead Six!


Dick
10-25-2007, 02:13 PM
I just returned from an AZ vacation last night where I snapped some unusual Dodge Truck pix. They were in the "Ghost Town" abandoned Gold King Mine in Jerome, AZ.

The first shot is a 5 ton Dodge truck with a 413 CI flathead six equipped with dual carbs. A one year only model. The second shot is the big six.

The last two shots are also old Dodge Trucks,, but I didn't write down what year they were. Maybe someone else has an idea.

An interesting fact is that the mine town had a Studebaker repair shop right there near the mine. There were dozens of carcasses of old Studebakers right on the premises. Many Studebaker engines and parts were scattered about.

If you ever get to Arizona, take the time to visit the Ghost Town in Jerome.

Ray Bell
10-25-2007, 04:34 PM
Great find there Dick...

I would suggest that the last one is pre-1924, having no front brakes. The red one is a model I've never seen, but perhaps 1937 or so?

Stoga
10-25-2007, 04:44 PM
I thought the biggest Mopar flathead six was the 309.3 in the 1928-30 Chrysler Imperials. Even the biggest flathead head Straight 8 was only 384.8 in the 31 thru 35 Imperials and high end Chryslers.
I could have sworn the biggest six in available in a Dodge in 54 was the 230.
Looking at the pics, it looks like a 230 with dual carbs. It doesn't appear larger in size than the 264.5 I have in my 54 Windsor Deluxe, think the sign may be a misprint.

Stoga
10-25-2007, 04:45 PM
The red one is a model I've never seen, but perhaps 1937 or so?
I believe you're right, it's very similar except for grille to my 37 Plymouth truck.
And much less rust too... :crying: ;)

Dick
10-25-2007, 05:28 PM
I thought the biggest Mopar flathead six was the 309.3 in the 1928-30 Chrysler Imperials. Even the biggest flathead head Straight 8 was only 384.8 in the 31 thru 35 Imperials and high end Chryslers.
I could have sworn the biggest six in available in a Dodge in 54 was the 230.
Looking at the pics, it looks like a 230 with dual carbs. It doesn't appear larger in size than the 264.5 I have in my 54 Windsor Deluxe, think the sign may be a misprint.

Direct from Alpar:

Larger trucks used another family of in-line flathead six cylinder engines. There was a 331 cubic inch and a mammoth 413 cubic inch lugger was available in the T series and up. There may have been another engine in the 370 CID range, but I am not sure about that. The 331 was highly regarded in trucking circles as a durable, hard working engine. The 413 was equipped with two single barrel carburetors and had a very large appetite for gasoline. It was noted for twisting the drive sprocket off the end of the camshaft.

Remember that this was a 5 ton truck!

TK
10-25-2007, 06:22 PM
I want one.
I just wonder what a "large appetite" is, because the RB's couldn't be any worse, could they? I also think the 413 came with dual exhaust too. I once saw at a car show in Bellingham Wa, a truck, that had dual exhaust and two carbs, it was a flat head six, and was stock.

If only they still made them like they used to!

Ray Bell
10-25-2007, 06:45 PM
If only they still made petrol like they used to!

There's a thread about these engines on the Australian Moparmaket forum, pictures posted there by Tony. They are big muthas!

Stoga
10-26-2007, 11:37 AM
Remember that this was a 5 ton truck!
Ahh, I'm not so familiar with those, maybe I should spend a lil more time on Alpar! I'd never had the chance to get around too much of the large tonnage Dodges, I always wondered how they moved some of those larger loads, assumed it must have been geared like a bear!
TK: I bet they were torque monsters, for sure!

Ray Bell
10-26-2007, 04:11 PM
They were typically used in the larger trucks...

You know, the ones where the cab reached high up in the air.

nhdriver
10-26-2007, 06:09 PM
If only they still made petrol like they used to!

There's a thread about these engines on the Australian Moparmaket forum, pictures posted there by Tony. They are big muthas!

If only it was priced like it used to be!

Ray Bell
10-26-2007, 06:55 PM
Yep... that would put some lead in our pencils!

Hang on, lead... that's what's missing apart from the price...

1954dodge413
12-31-2008, 03:49 PM
hi does anyone have info on a 413 flathead 6 cylinder my uncle has a 1954 dodge 3 ton with a 5 speed and 2 speed axle and a motor with 2 carbs on it i told him it wasn a 413 he dosnt believe they made one Thanks Evan:withstupi

Dick
12-31-2008, 05:06 PM
They were only made for 1954. The Navy used them. I took photos of the one I saw. I have found reference to them on the web, but even Allpar has limited information listed. A true rarity.

Ray Bell
12-31-2008, 05:14 PM
There's a guy on the inliners.org forum (Mopar section) has found a 377ci version of this engine and wants to put it together with the skin from a nuclear warhead (he has this) and make a salt racer out of it...

Read the thread (http://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=40791#Post40791), you'll learn a bit more.

passing you
01-01-2009, 11:06 AM
cool stuff.

Century Cp Guru
01-01-2009, 11:11 AM
I also dont think they made a Flat head with that much cubes and i used to sell quite a few reman years ago. 253 cid i think..

John Kunkel
01-01-2009, 04:22 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Dodge powered a limited production 5-ton truck with a non-Mopar engine like the Continental, Reo, etc. Continental had some huge 6-cylinder motors like the 6602 with 602 cu. in.

Dick
01-01-2009, 11:44 PM
hi does anyone have info on a 413 flathead 6 cylinder my uncle has a 1954 dodge 3 ton with a 5 speed and 2 speed axle and a motor with 2 carbs on it i told him it wasn a 413 he dosnt believe they made one Thanks Evan:withstupi

See pix in first post and also writeup in post #5.

Ray Bell
01-02-2009, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Century Cp Guru
I also dont think they made a Flat head with that much cubes and i used to sell quite a few reman years ago. 253 cid i think..

Close...

The biggest car flathead, naturally enough being the 25" version, was a 265 used only in Chryslers and De Sotos IIRC.

But that's nothing to do with this truck engine... it's a totally different animal. It's much longer, higher, wider etc and has 12 individual ports in the block, none being siamesed like the car engines.

No, John, it's it doesn't seem to be a Continental or some other bought-in engine, purely Chrysler. I've seen a number of articles on these engines and nowhere does that come up.

Again, Tony West OZ on various fora seems to know a lot about these, I think I've seen him post a workshop manual pic at some time.

PaulH
01-04-2009, 05:49 PM
According to the Motors truck manual I have, the 413 was an option in the largest Dodge trucks from '54 through '56. The introduction of the 331 and 354 Hemi V8s in the mid '50s made them obsolete. I have seen references to other larger sixes beginning with the 282, 306, 331, and 377 cu. in. All flathead sixes, and many but not all, with dual carbs and exhaust. The 413 has a stroke over 5", so would not be a "winder". A torquer, for sure.

Paul H

bugmenot
01-18-2009, 11:07 PM
hi does anyone have info on a 413 flathead 6 cylinder my uncle has a 1954 dodge 3 ton with a 5 speed and 2 speed axle and a motor with 2 carbs on it i told him it wasn a 413 he dosnt believe they made one Thanks Evan:withstupi

The Dodge 6cyl. flathead 413 engine started in 1953 and was made till 1956. Used in only the "Y" model 4 ton dodge trucks. Dodge didn`t make a 5 ton till later years. In marine applications it was called the "Majestic". Bore was 4-1/16" with a 5" stroke. 12 port block with 7 main bearings. Sodium exhaust valves/bronze guides. 30" head length. Engine complete with trans about 1100lbs. Came with dual carbs and dual exhaust. Nickel chrome Moly block. Optional distributor cable tach drive. 2-5/16 rod journals and 3" mains. 306-331-377ci. were all twin carb engines from about 1951 to 1953, displacement depended on tonnage of truck. A single carb 306 was used in the1951-53 R series 2-3/4 ton 229" WB. buses.

Dick
01-18-2009, 11:45 PM
Well, now we have established that the 413 flathead dual carb six was indeed made. We only have different sources of info regarding the years built and the tonnage of the truck.

That's OK and not surprising. We are dealing with 50 year old information.

BTW, bugmenot, welcome to the board. I see this was your first post since joining in '06. Glad to have you and don't be a stranger.

bugmenot
01-19-2009, 12:08 AM
The reason I know alot about these engines is I have several trucks with these different displacement engines including the 413 in my 53 4 ton. I have all the parts books/sales literature ect too. Always been into the old big Dodge trucks. Parts are just about non existant for these engines. Production is very low.Started in them in the 70's!

tinlizzy
04-16-2009, 12:28 AM
Does any one know the engine length of the 413? Was it a 25" head or was the mamoths a bit bigger. Chrysler 265 was a 25" head called the spitfire. I have one and have been searching for dual exhaust. Just wondered if those mentioned would fit on my engine.
Lee

Walkercolt
04-16-2009, 01:52 AM
Dic, I printed out the pic of the red Dodge and showed it to my 84 year old Dad. He thought it was a '36 or '37. He said it looks more like a '36 and the old "loose bulb" headllights have been replaced with the smaller sealed beam units inside the original headlight shells. He said that was a very common modification made to cars/trucks when sealed beams came out, because they were so much brighter. He said the '36 had a bumper that "bent-down" at the grill, and the '37's had a straight bumper, but the real "give-away" is the tail-light. The '36 is on a 8-10" long bracket and the '37 had a short bracket.(if it's original). He's 99% sure that by '38, the windshields were fixed too. I know Dodge made some very big flathead 6's that were used in the M-10 light tanks. They were above 350 CID, but they didn't work out, and the Army also decided to switch to desiels to reduce the fire hazard if the tank was hit. This was long and involved, and took years to be really a sucess. Those are all great pictures. Old gasoline "heavy" trucks and (gasp!) gas semi's were weird beasts, and very hard to find accurate info on today, as the original factory motors were often changed out to another brand, like from a GMC to a Contenital or Diamond REO, or something stranger. Out in "wheat country" in SW Okla. you still see lot's of '60's gas grain trucks with 14 YEAR-OLD's driving them (legally) from the field to an elevator. Some must have to strain to reach the pedals, and you just see the top's of their heads thru the windshields, both boys and girls.

Dart 65
04-28-2009, 02:39 AM
I want one.
I just wonder what a "large appetite" is, because the RB's couldn't be any worse, could they?

The flat "L" head engines are horribly inefficient, so they would likely be far worse on gas than almost any V8. The 217 in my Plymouth wasn't very good on gas which was the reason I didn't drive it much.

Ray Bell
04-28-2009, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by tinlizzy
Does any one know the engine length of the 413? Was it a 25" head or was the mamoths a bit bigger. Chrysler 265 was a 25" head called the spitfire. I have one and have been searching for dual exhaust. Just wondered if those mentioned would fit on my engine.

Lee... the post a couple before yours gave the head length as 33"... and an earlier post from myself explained that there was 12 separate ports, none of them siamesed like the car engines were.

bugmenot
09-20-2009, 01:27 AM
Does any one know the engine length of the 413? Was it a 25" head or was the mamoths a bit bigger. Chrysler 265 was a 25" head called the spitfire. I have one and have been searching for dual exhaust. Just wondered if those mentioned would fit on my engine.
Lee

Well if you still want an answer on the 413 --head is 30" long and from crank flange to front pulley length is 42". Engine holds 9 total quarts of oil too! 34 quarts of coolant.

waynedabrain
11-13-2010, 01:06 PM
I recently purchased a 1956 dodge firetruck, (model C-3-Y6-172), and in doing research on it, I discovered it has a 413 ci flathead. 30" long block with dual carbs and dual exhaust. (C-3-Y6 designates a 413, and the 172 is the wheelbase.)

austinsailor
04-05-2011, 10:10 PM
I'll probably revive this post from the dust, but I also have a couple of these motors. Mine are only 331 CI versions, but they are healthy sounding beasts and have some real torque.

My 3 ton truck is rated at 40% grade at full load (I think it was about 20,000 lbs) which means it raises 40 feet every 100 feet. Interstates are a max of something like 7%. I thought I was moving mine around in granny low, low range when I first got it. And it was low! Then one day I figured out it was really 2nd, granny was over and down.

They are cool, very heavy duty motors. I hope to get one stuffed in a car one day soon with some goodies attached.

Oh, a fellow in our town has a 413 industrial version in an old piece of equipment. I would like to get my hands on that one!

Ray Bell
04-06-2011, 08:22 AM
There was a good thread on the Inliners forum about these, but it's disappeared...

whtbaron
04-07-2011, 09:54 PM
Can anyone else get the pics to come up on this old post still? Mine just go blank when I try to open them...

Dick
04-07-2011, 11:31 PM
Can anyone else get the pics to come up on this old post still? Mine just go blank when I try to open them...

Here are mine of the old Dodge and the 413 flathead 6 from the start of the thread.

As far as why they disappear after a time, I can only guess that the software has storage limits and pruning of old pix is automatically done to free up space.

whtbaron
04-09-2011, 09:15 AM
Thanks Dick

judagrey
04-09-2011, 12:13 PM
Canīt see the pictures, oh boy 2008 post, sorry!

Ray Bell
04-11-2011, 08:20 AM
You'll get information and pictures here (http://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=8&Number=37431&Searchpage=1&Main=5178&Words=big+six&topic=0&Search=true#Post37431)...

And here (http://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=8&Number=40791&Searchpage=3&Main=5673&Words=dodge+truck+2x1&topic=0&Search=true#Post40791)

Ray Bell
04-11-2011, 09:08 AM
And here's the truck the scrappy in CA is using with one of these engines:

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/487/truck17us.jpg

whtbaron
04-11-2011, 11:28 PM
damn....sorta makes you wanna cry, doesn't it? Great links Ray... wonder if that guy with the 413 ever got to the salt?

bnelson
06-01-2011, 12:14 AM
I found some old iron in Sprague, Washington that included some late 40's to early 50's Dodge trucks that had a huge flat-head six motor. None of these had dual carbs. It took a long time on the web tonight to find any reference to the big block six's. I'm almost 65 and can remember those guys running up and down the roads. That was back when wholesale gasoline was 12 or 13 cents a gallon.

Nice site. Glad I found it. Brad

whtbaron
06-01-2011, 01:45 PM
Glad you enjoyed it....got some serious Mopar fanatics around here.

Ray Bell
06-01-2011, 07:01 PM
Yes, a big welcome to you...

There's more info on the inliners.org forum in the Mopar section. I think I might have posted a link to that earlier.



PS... Brad, how close to 65 are you?

bnelson
06-02-2011, 12:35 AM
Ray - too close. Aug. 17 this year. I'm old enough that a trade publication pays me for stories. (Progressive Forage Grower magazine, my regular is the "Tales of a Hay Hauler" column.) Just google Progressive Forage Grower.

At least I made many of the younger generation afraid of me a few years back.

A good friend in high school had a '50 or '51 Plymouth that threw a rod. He pulled the piston out of that hole, plugged the oil port on that rod journal on the crank and ran it as a 5-cylinder for several months. A crankcase explosion at highway speed ended the car. Blew the oil pan completely off of the block.

How's your weather? Thunderstorms passing through here now. Makes the dogs want to get in bed with us!

Brad

53dodgekingsway
06-02-2011, 01:57 AM
I just spotted this post as it had popped up today and thought some people may be interested in a Truck Museum that is located in Invercargill New Zealand.
I just happened to be there yesterday. It is a private collection with over 500 trucks. It is owned by HW Richardson Group and contains some of the rarerest trucks in the world. I was there 2 hours and just didnt have enough time to see everything thats there.
There is also an amazing collection of old Petrol Bowsers and metal signs. The owner originally collected mainly old American trucks but expanded it in later years to include British and European models. There is an amazing Texaco truck which has been fully restored.
Unfortunately Bill Richardson who was a truly nice guy and extremely passionate about his trucks died a few years back, but the family have kept the collection going and are still expanding it.

I will post some photos when I get back home and grab my camera.

This place is the worlds best kept secret as far as Im concerned. Absolutely awesome.:thumbsup:

53dodgekingsway
06-02-2011, 06:57 AM
I snapped hundreds of photos and got a bit arty with some. Just attached a few to give you an idea of the scale of the museum.
There are multiple rooms. The shot taken from above was only one room.
Enjoy:wave:

Ray Bell
06-02-2011, 07:02 AM
Looks like a place you could spend days...

Brad, I'll beat you to it. At this stage I'd say I'll beat you to it handsomely!

helicanuck
07-26-2011, 09:34 PM
hi does anyone have info on a 413 flathead 6 cylinder my uncle has a 1954 dodge 3 ton with a 5 speed and 2 speed axle and a motor with 2 carbs on it i told him it wasn a 413 he dosnt believe they made one Thanks Evan:withstupi

Hi Moparchat this is my first post. I believe Dodge made a 265 cu.in. with dual carbs and dual exhaust. It was in a K model. An outfit in London On. by the name of Husband Trans. had a number of 'Y' model Dodge trucks. They ran Eastern Ontario an Quebec. London Toronto and Montreal and Ottawa area. I worked for a Dodge dealer Fetterly's in Iroquois Ont . The drivers used to stop for repairs and visits. These trucks had 5speed trans. and 2speed rears. They also had hydraulic brakes. Regards Helicanuck. PS I forgot to mention the Y Model Dodge used the 413 with dual carbs and dual exshaust.

Dick
07-26-2011, 11:42 PM
Dodge did make a 413 flathead 6 with dual carbs. I posted pix at the beginning of this thread which I started.

David Cook
08-02-2011, 04:50 PM
Mopar bought that engine from one of the major truck manufacturers like White, Mack or the like. A lot of trucks in the 50's had big flathead gasoline engines.

helicanuck
08-02-2011, 07:49 PM
HI David Cook. I beleive this 413 was manufactured by Continental Engine.Regards Helicanuck

Stoga
08-03-2011, 01:47 AM
HI David Cook. I beleive this 413 was manufactured by Continental Engine.Regards Helicanuck
Chrysler did make their own flathead 413 six cylinder.
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/flat.html
"Larger trucks used another family of in-line flathead six cylinder engines. There was a 331 cubic inch and a mammoth 413 cubic inch lugger was available in the T series and up. There may have been another engine in the 370 CID range, but I am not sure about that. The 331 was highly regarded in trucking circles as a durable, hard working engine. The 413 was equipped with two single barrel carburetors and had a very large appetite for gasoline. It was noted for twisting the drive sprocket off the end of the camshaft. "

Ray Bell
08-03-2011, 06:54 AM
We have photos of it somewhere...

It's no Continental.

whtbaron
12-18-2012, 01:49 AM
I know I'm dragging up dinosaurs here, but I came across this pic of the guys trying to make a speedster out of the old 413 truck six on the antique auto club site. Not running yet, but it's looking very cool.

whtbaron
12-18-2012, 01:55 AM
Here's the link to what he posted...
http://forums.aaca.org/f230/super-sized-speedster-341398.html#post1111338