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Kevin Garceau
01-14-2003, 01:39 PM
Hey folks, first let me say I am new to this board and really like what I see. I have been racing mopars for some time now and am in the market to purchase my first good set of bb mopar heads and was looking for opinions and maybe some of you have some used ones that are too small for your application.

I race a full chassised Dodge Daytona with a somewhat mild 440, about 13.5 to one compression and small 635 lift roller cam. I currently have a decent set of iron heads mildly ported but looking for a little more performance gain and still keep the rpms below 7k. I dont want to shell out the money on big heads to find out they need to be spun to 7500 to make top power. I am really only thinking with this new motor and the heads that are on it will run 9.7s or so. Realistically anyways. The car weighs 2750 with me in it race ready, BTE convertor, 727 tranney and 4.56 gears with 33 tall hoosier tires. Currently I am running a 440 about 7.5 to one compression ratio on 93 octane pump gas and goes 10.4s. Have the roller motor just about ready to be assembled and thinking maybe the heads will be the biggest limiting factor.
thanks guys sorry so long.

Kevin Garceau
01-14-2003, 01:43 PM
I guess I should say I am currently thinking of either the B1/BS heads or Indy 440-1s both being pretty much outta the box. I dont think with my combo they will need much in the way of porting. Also I have harland sharp roller rockers now I believe with either of these heads I will have to purhase all new valve trane? Correct, anyone have any numbers as far as price of these things ready to go from several different sources.
thanks again

gregsdart
01-14-2003, 05:30 PM
Welcome Kevin! I have run both ported iron heads and 440-1s. If you are going to stay with a 500 inch motor or smaller, don't want to spend money on porting, i would go with some Eddelbrocks as the cheapest way to decent power. They will pull 650 hp out of a decent shortblock a lot cheaper than the 440-1s. The 440-1s will make 700 hp pretty much out of the box, but the cost will be up there too. Sounds like you want your power down low, and the smaller head combined with a 499 inch motor for instance should push you to 9.60s and not go over 6800 rpm. This was calculated by punching in 600 hp and 2750 lbs into my race computor. I consider these numbers to be conservative. For the most out of it, a custom roller ground with the eddy flow specs and the rest of your info ought to make it happen.

Kevin Garceau
01-14-2003, 07:06 PM
Thanks Greg, I really gave the Eddys no thought at all. A few things I will have to consider is the usablility of the heads in future applications if I decide to go further on the hp ladder. The car is only certed to go 9.00. It is an older style chassis and doubt it would get certed for quicker without a bunch more work. I would like to keep the rpms where most 440s should be, it doenst have a bunch of high dollar parts and see no reason replacing them every weekend by spinning it too tight. Its just a bracket/10.90 car. I will give them some thought and look at what can be done to them down the line. I plan on running injected alky on it soon, with the Rons set up and again wont have to spin it too high do to the increased bottom end tq. I am not afraid of spending money on quality heads, just dont want them to be completley outta whack for my combo.

thecudaguy
01-14-2003, 09:56 PM
Hi Kevin,

I am fairly new to this group too. I completed a fresh build last year and have researched heads in great length. There is a great book out written by the owner of Muscle Motors called Big Block Mopar Performance. There is an excellent chapter on aftermarket cylinder heads. The 440-1 heads are better for 500cid plus engines due to the larger runner volume. The 440 S/R heads on the other hand were specifically designed for engines with less than 500 cid. This smaller runner size has a very high flow rate (velocity) as compared to the Edlebrock heads. My 440 with S/R heads helped push my 3780 pound 'cuda down the 1320 in 11.33 sec. @ 120.6. So if you do the math... that works out to 517 rear wheel hp. HP = (mph/234) cubed x weight of vehicle. I don't think thats too bad for a std bore 440 and I have'nt got my carb firgured out yet. The cheapest place to buy S/R heads is through World Products. You will need spacers at the end of the valley pan to compensate for the extra height of the heads. Everything else is a perfect fit including stock style manifolds like the M1.

Kevin Garceau
01-14-2003, 10:48 PM
Well, Just over on the Doug Herbert website and found a very expensive error on their part. The world alum tq 440s they have listed at 1259 a pair....complete. The bare heads were more. Although I was just about to order them and put them on the damn credit card I saw this little thing on the bottom that said" Prices subject to change" so they got their butts covered. The Worl pro 440s are 2400 complete, the B1/bs from them was 2050 complete. I believe with the B1's you have to run new valve trane so that will make up the difference I guess. Not sure exactly what I am going to do at this point. I dont want to kill all bottom end power outta this motor but dont want to limit future motors in the future with smaller heads. Probably think it over for a while and see what is out their on the used market I guess......

so any used heads out there collecting dust, too small for your big cube mopars?

thecudaguy
01-14-2003, 11:27 PM
Muscle Motors sells S/R heads complete for $1849.

GON_RACIN
01-15-2003, 06:43 PM
.509 cam install

r3racing
01-15-2003, 07:55 PM
I cast my vote for SR's. We have had great success on three motors using the SR's. Currently, we are making 740HP at 6500 rpms with SR's on our 493. Another bonus is the standard Crane Gold adjustable rockers work great.

cuda367
01-15-2003, 11:01 PM
I have used the B-1's, the indy 440-1's and the B1/Bs heads. All were on engines less than 500 in. I will say this to any one and all. The B1/Bs is the best.... But use the Indy intake.

KM
01-16-2003, 05:27 AM
Now, I would take a little time and think.....
What are your goals-----now-----in the future !
A lot easier to try to help you if we now either you want in the future 6´s----b1/TS----or 9.9´s eddy´s or SR´s might be the best ones........

K

gregsdart
01-16-2003, 11:12 PM
How does this sound? Build a 440 based motor with a flat tappet cam, eddy heads, and with the idea it will be your mule motor, and backup motor if you want to go faster. The Eddy heads fall into a nice niche, not enough power to destroy blocks on a regular bassis, and with a flat tappet cam, cheap to build and maintain. If you want more power in the future, don't stop at the level of the indys, its just as cheap (er, expensive?) to use a B1 head as it is an indy 440-1, and the 440-1 is limited to 850 hp or so, the b1 will go more. At this level you will want a 400 based stroker, or aftermarket block.

b-1ken
01-17-2003, 12:37 AM
Greg has a great plan. Whatever you do, if you're looking to build a serious power engine later on don't waste good money on the Indy's. As I have said before, B-1 originals are the best HP/$ head out there (I just got a complete set up - heads, manifold, new valves, valve covers, valley covers, rocker shafts & head studs off E-Bay for $1850).:) By the way - yes, it's true, you would have to rev the engine higher with B-1's to extract all of the potential, but you don't neccessarily have to. Believe me, if you're building a 499 B-1 it'll have PLENTY of balls at 6500 rpm.

mrmopar413
01-18-2003, 11:33 PM
Kevin, this is a great site for gathering information on different combinations that people have, or in some cases wish they had.
There are members out here that love to help anyone they can(AND DO)!
However there are others that believe that only one head is any good. That only one head makes any real horsepower, and that of course is their chosen head. Set back, read, and enjoy. You'll see who does what in a very short time.
All the available heads today are far better than anything we had 10 or 20 years ago. Tomorrow they will be better than the one's we have today.
Pick out the members that have information that you can utilize, and listen all the others wine about only their head will work for you. It doesn't matter what your combination is, or what you are antisipating on running, their head is the only one that will work.
Read a few of the posts and see if you can figure out who's who.

Good luck
Gary

b-1ken
01-19-2003, 11:18 AM
If a FRIEND were to ask me, which should I buy, Indy's or B-1 originals, I would, of course, say B-1's. Indy heads are simply raised port max wedge heads, whereas the original B-1's were developed for the Pro Stock program in the 80's. Since the set-up costs the same, I feel that the B-1's are definitely a better choice. My son often tells me to shut up about the B-1's at the track. "Why do you tell people about them? LET them run the Indy's". My response to him is "These are Chevy guys, they wouldn't run a Chrysler if it made twice the power for half the price!". One racer with a Super Gas Roadster similar to mine put a 451 Indy engine in his car to go faster. The original 440 he had would go about 135 mph (on the throttle stop) and the new engine went about 141 mph. My 499 B-1 engine in a simlar '27T roadster would run 157+ mph (went 161.9 at Atco on a fast day @ 9.90 T-stop). Another very serious Super Gas racer has a 528 Indy engine in his '27 T roadster and he only goes about 147 mph. Ray Barton, who markets Indy's, admitted to me that the B-1 heads made more power. I don't have stock in Brodix and I certainly don't whine about the heads, I'm just giving some friendly advice from someone who has had some experience.

thecudaguy
01-19-2003, 11:38 AM
Guys this is getting way too intense. He asked for opinions and that's what he got was opinions. For you guys to sqwabble back and forth about which head is best is nuts. He is going to have to decide for himself.
Just make sure that the breathing capacity of your new heads, what ever they are, does not greatly exceed your engine requirements. :D

B1's would not work good on my engine because it does not move enough air, nor does it have the ability to. A large head on a small engine will do nothing but create velocity problems. This is not a problem you want to try and correct during your first set of time trials of the season.

An engine is air pump plain and simple. It can only move so much air in a given amount of time. Heads are rated by flow rate for a reason.......

Match these two and you have a winner.

Best of luck in whatever you decide.
:thumbsup:

b-1ken
01-20-2003, 12:19 AM
This is not a squabble - just the facts. A local racer here had a pair of B-1's on a 451 bracket race engine. The car was a '68 Barracuda which weighed about 2750 lbs (with driver) and would run 9.40's at 145 mph in the summer. How small of an engine is too small? Ray Barton told me that he built a 428 cu. in. engine with B-1 TS heads and said it made 870 HP. The point is, if you're going to lay out the cash, why settle for second best?

DartGT66
01-20-2003, 11:02 AM
Having a set of 440-1's, I agree with a lot of the above. If considering the 440-1's, it might be wiser to get the B1's. The B1's have more potential, and the price is about the same. However, that does not mean that the Indys aren't good heads too, and the Indys need less special parts to work (valve location, rocker set up. People seem to have problems with B1 vavletrain and upgrading to T&D's cost a little). Still, if I were to purchase heads now, I would propably get the B1's, and maybe "deport" them filling the intakeport floors to get better velocity. The intake ports of the Indys are pretty big, but the B1's are even way bigger. Don't know if anyone has used original B1's in the street with pump gas, but we are currently building an engine. Wether it will work or not will be seen, and if we take it into dyno we'll see how it compares to the Indy headed engine.

Kevin Garceau
01-20-2003, 05:26 PM
Well guys thanks for all the advise and keep it coming. I have been working back and forth with Koffels place the last week and will see what happens. But I think I found something other than heads that will give me that low end charge like I wanted and not have to run it as high rpm wise and still pick up e.t.
I purchased a Rons Toilet system to run on alky. If anyone is looking for this set up or has any questions I will put you in touch with James Monroe. Great guy to deal with, he is a Rons dealer outta Indiana and usually will offer much better price than rons and better service. He will meet you at the track and set it up for you so you never have to touch it again. I still may get the heads soon but right now this system I have been wanting anyways cost about half the costs of heads and will probably deliver more of what I was looking for.
Also some of you may or may not know but I am a Psychiatric Supervisor for the state of Wisconsin, I can weed through alot of the balogney pretty quickly but do appreciate your concern. Here is a pic of the car it will be going on. It will probably only run 9.5s with this mild motor but since I am 10.90 racing with it anyways and brackets who really cares. Also it has new paint on it since this pic so you may have seen it around the midwest and didnt know it.

thecudaguy
01-20-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by DartGT66
Having a set of 440-1's, I agree with a lot of the above. If considering the 440-1's, it might be wiser to get the B1's. The B1's have more potential, and the price is about the same. However, that does not mean that the Indys aren't good heads too, and the Indys need less special parts to work (valve location, rocker set up. People seem to have problems with B1 vavletrain and upgrading to T&D's cost a little). Still, if I were to purchase heads now, I would propably get the B1's, and maybe "deport" them filling the intakeport floors to get better velocity. The intake ports of the Indys are pretty big, but the B1's are even way bigger. Don't know if anyone has used original B1's in the street with pump gas, but we are currently building an engine. Wether it will work or not will be seen, and if we take it into dyno we'll see how it compares to the Indy headed engine.

Velocity is the key to unlocking your horsepower. PPPPlease let me know how this works out.

DartGT66
01-21-2003, 03:45 AM
In the current engine we are building, we will use the B1's as is; they are ported already. As now, I do not know wether we'll take the B1 in to the dyno (time), but I certainly hope so. Before we do, I'd like to get some power and torque estimates of the two engines, or rather the differencies between them. And RPM estimates for these pump gassers too!

#1
4.5" x 4.15" 528
steel rods
11:1 CR
roller cam, 283@.050, .683"
Indy 440-1 heads, 2.25 intake valves, ported
Indy single plane dominator intake
1050 Chuck Nuytten dominator
2" x 30" headers
3" exhaust

#2
4.375" x 4.15" B block 499
steel rods
11.5:1
Roller cam, 276/292@.050, .75/.73"
B1 heads, ported
B1 intake
Gary Williams dominator
2.25" x 34" headers
3.5" exhaust

The one who will get closest will get a lot of honour!

Tom-Sweden
01-21-2003, 07:09 AM
I have built a flowbench with a 11kW Industrial fan that runs 5100 rpm to make more than 28 "H2O at over 550CFM.
It has guiding pins for just BB Mopar.
Currently bore is 4.56", but I plan on making tubeinserts for less bore. It is for intakeflows only.

My own B1/BS where already ported when I bought that engine
so I borrowed an unported head from a freind for comparing.
My heads are full ported and have material added to raise the floors, so intake volume is only 250 CC (STD 210 CC).

The Indy´s are borrowed, but i ran these heads myself in -99. unported.
Indy´s Intake volume are 310CC+ a little porting.

Intake /Unported/Unported/Ported/Indy 440-1
Lift------B1/BS------B1/BS----B1/BS----My old
---------From------- in my-----my-------heads
---------www--------Flow-----own-----mildly
---------brodix------Bench----heads---ported
0.200/ 145/ 147/ 170/ 166/
0.300/ 204/ 201/ 222/ 232/
0.400/ 249/ 225/ 261/ 280/
0.500/ 284/ 267/ 305/ 319/
0.600/ 295/ 289/ 328/ 338/
0.650/ 294/ 297/ 339/ 345/
0.700/ 293/ 300/ 350/ 358/
0.800/ xxx/ xxx/ 350/ 358/
0.850/ xxx/ xxx/ xxx/ 365/

Comparing ratio flow/volume gives 350/250 for B1/BS=1.40
and Indy´s 358/325( maybee, haven´t mess.)=1.10

My B1/BS 540" engine makes 810hp at 6400 rpm
It never runs over 7000 rpm.

I have made a flowchart in excel, but I can´t get it in here ??
Any suggestion h

DartGT66
01-21-2003, 07:23 AM
Flow/volume ratio is pretty much useless. It does not necessarily reveal anything about the velocity. Take for example the B1 original heads with 310 cc intake ports, and the 440-1's in fully ported form 330cc. The cross sectional area of the B1 is way bigger. Or, like the way they are often compared, Stage VI's and Indy SR's. Ported Stage VI's are about 210cc, Indys are advertised at 260 cc. So, the Indys have way bigger ports? However, both of them have noticably raised intake ports. The Indys use stock intake manifolds, the Stage VI's use RB intakes on B's or the intake spacers. Add the spacer displacement to the Stage VI, that's about 40cc. Then consider, that the Indys short side is way higher, and it uses 1/2" longer valves. So which one truly has better velocity? In my opinion it isn't quite as simple as to compare flow# vs cc's to really tell anything, when comparing different heads.

b-1ken
01-21-2003, 12:35 PM
These posts are fun. I'm glad that possibly I've injected a little controversy into the mix. That was not my intent, but I'm enjoying some of the head & engine tests that are being posted. The only thing I would say is SHOW ME A TIME SLIP! All the talk about flow to volume ratio and velocity is O.K. but the bottom line is what does the time slip say? If velocity were the only thing, then we should all run 1" diameter ports. And as Dart66 says, flow/volume is O.K. only if the heads have the same length runners. Sheldon Gecker is an icon in Super Gas racing. He is considered to be one of the "founding fathers" of the class. For years he ran a 471 B-1 original engine and did exceptionally well with it. Throttle stop engines spend about 2 seconds "on the stop" at relatively low (3500 - 4500) rpm. This is a critical time in the run for a Super Gas car. If the fuel mixture is screwed up during this period, the car is probably not going to be consistant. If these heads were way too big for a 471, then I don't think Sheldon would have been so successful. I run my 499 almost completely down the track in high gear. The transmission is shifted into high gear at about 3' off the starting line. When the throttle opens (when the stop times out), it accelerates real hard considering it's in high gear. I don't think those heads should be "De-Ported" for any engine 450" or larger.

DartGT66
01-21-2003, 03:15 PM
Like I said before, the port area of the 440-1's is pretty big too. That could make one think, that it does not put out very good low end torque. According to my experience, that is not true, despite of the big cam the engine pulled down low pretty well. In the lowest point measured, 1400 if I remeber correctly, it put out over 400 ft/lb. At 2900 it was 649. The only place where the port size in my case makes a difference is at small part throttle where the engine isn't very sharp compared to small port heads. But press the pedal an inch more and the situation changes.
No answers to my quetsion above so far. I guess a pump gas B1 engine is pretty much an untried combo and I'm anxious to see how it will work. Despite of it's slightly smaller dispalcement, I expect it to make more horsepower than the Indy engine because of the heads and the slightly bigger CR. But we'll see...

b-1ken
01-21-2003, 05:00 PM
Sorry, I'm not biting on your "guess how much power survey". You (me) only can look stupid (more than usual).
Ken B.
P.S. My favorite head is a 12 deg. Big Chief (or even 14 deg.). Those flow BIG numbers and those engines HONK! I know this is blasphemy, but facts is facts.

thecudaguy
01-21-2003, 06:34 PM
And the survey says..............:D

MoparBilly G
01-22-2003, 02:52 AM
71 440 block..bored 30, filled to the bottom water pump hole, with Aluminum main caps, and ARP studs. Stock .010/.010 Steel 440 crank, Used BME aluminum Rods, Ross 11.5 pistons.

Edelbrock heads with 10 hours of clean-up. Solid cams springs, Isky 1.5 ductile rockers, 304/640 Ultradyne solid cam.

M-1 with 1150 domintator, 2 1/8 headers

10.02@132 in 2885lb 70 Challenger with 1.96 glide, 8" tci converter, and 4.56 83/4 14x32 slicks.

Add a dualstage o'malley N20 system in the 4150-Dominator adapter and you get 8.96@147

I can build an exact copy of this engine, an have it ready, on the stand (minus carb, intake, and Milodon oil system) for what you guys are talking about spending on a B-1 or Indy top-end alone!!

Then if you get that big top-end, you have to buy more headers to fit those heads, and then after you spring for them and that high dollar stroker rotating assembly...you find out you have too much power, and need a new block!!!!

I'd rather spend my money racing my car, than building something that I can't afford to replace if it breaks!!! Don't get sucked into the more money for more power pit!!

I put 129 passes on this combo this season alone, and raced in CA, Az, NV, OK, MO,and CO....which was muc more fun than sitting around dreaming about a "Big set of race heads"!!
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Oct/20021091187891871370149.jpg

DartGT66
01-22-2003, 03:30 AM
Yes, I guess it's next to impossible to estimate the power and that's not really what I'm after. I just feel and hope that the B1 engine shoudl make the same or more power than the Indy. But I guess we'll find that out.
As far as Moparbillys statement goes, it may be partially true. However, you didn't use new parts in the build up. I bought my 493 stroker for about 2500$ including the Indys, ignition boxes, headers etc. I changed the pistons and the cams, and they were about 1000$; the car run 10.06/137.5 weighing 3370 lbs, through mufflers, on pump gas, DOT's and SS springs. So if you estimate the price of the Indys from that package, your engine sure didn't cost a lot :)

gregsdart
01-22-2003, 10:38 AM
On the pumpgas motors, sure hope you get a chance to try some longer header lengths, like 36 inchs! My car was a bearcat out of the hole, almost couldn't hook it up, then i switched to 30 inch primarys, and it really moved the power up, but the 60 ft and ET were the same! So one key to a good combo is header configuration, the other is cam choice, after head choice . MoparBillyG makes a very good point as well. Cheap is better, and most of us don't have bags O money! Like B1Ken says these posts are fun, and informative, hope nobody gets bent out of shape, just enjoy!!

MoparBilly G
01-22-2003, 12:15 PM
DartGT66,
On engine #1...You're gonna try to push a 528 with 283@50 though 2" primaries?? That looks like a potential bottle neck to me..

DartGT66
01-22-2003, 02:43 PM
Actually, I was a little concerned about the headers too, but even more I was concerned about the 3" dual exhaust with Simons mufflers. They seemed to work decently though, in the car I used a 3.5" X pipe and straightline performance mufflers. It seems like the 44" x 2" Hooker super comps were way more a bottle neck in a smaller stage VI engine. Although dynos are different and you can't draw very through conclutions about the numbers, the 528 made 780 hp at 6600 and 704 ft/lb at 5300, but the whole torque curve was very flat exceeding 650 ft/lb already at 3100. The power and torque fell radically above 6800 in the dyno. Also, the brake specific fuel consumption numbers were pretty good for an angine like this, and it actually got 10 mpg on the highway. The B1 499 isn't ready yet, so no numbers for it at the moment.

b-1ken
01-22-2003, 05:41 PM
I think we all know "spraying" an engine is cheap power, but cylinder pressure is cylinder pressure no matter how you do it. I run 400 blocks with steel main caps and no other modifications besides concrete. I can't imagine nitrous is any easier on the lower end than B-1 heads. We're not allowed to use Nitrous in NHRA Super Gas. Believe me, if it were allowed, I'd be using it (WITH B-1 heads - you can't have too much HP!).
On the subject of headers, when I first put my 499 B-1 into my Barracuda, I used 1 7/8 into 2" primaries @ 34". The header flange was actually slightly smaller than the port opening. I then built new 2 1/8" into 2 1/4" x 33" headers for it and picked up ..... NOTHING!! It went the same MPH as with the smaller headers (running Super Gas with throttle stop). My friend with a 467 BB Chev. switched from 1 7/8" street headers on his Super Street '69 Nova to a nice pair of 2 1/4" Hookers and got absolutely ZERO! :shrug:

thecudaguy
01-22-2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by MoparBilly G
71 440 block..bored 30, filled to the bottom water pump hole, with Aluminum main caps, and ARP studs. Stock .010/.010 Steel 440 crank, Used BME aluminum Rods, Ross 11.5 pistons.

Edelbrock heads with 10 hours of clean-up. Solid cams springs, Isky 1.5 ductile rockers, 304/640 Ultradyne solid cam.

M-1 with 1150 domintator, 2 1/8 headers

10.02@132 in 2885lb 70 Challenger with 1.96 glide, 8" tci converter, and 4.56 83/4 14x32 slicks.

Add a dualstage o'malley N20 system in the 4150-Dominator adapter and you get 8.96@147

I can build an exact copy of this engine, an have it ready, on the stand (minus carb, intake, and Milodon oil system) for what you guys are talking about spending on a B-1 or Indy top-end alone!!

Then if you get that big top-end, you have to buy more headers to fit those heads, and then after you spring for them and that high dollar stroker rotating assembly...you find out you have too much power, and need a new block!!!!

I'd rather spend my money racing my car, than building something that I can't afford to replace if it breaks!!! Don't get sucked into the more money for more power pit!!

I put 129 passes on this combo this season alone, and raced in CA, Az, NV, OK, MO,and CO....which was muc more fun than sitting around dreaming about a "Big set of race heads"!!
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Oct/20021091187891871370149.jpg

Bravo, nice wheels........:guns:

Kevin Garceau
01-22-2003, 09:33 PM
Here Billy have a similar low buck motor you guys might find interesting. It is the one in the car now and has been in a car for last 13 years....
1974 block, stock not even bored
1974 pistons, stock, cast dished pistons
did add a steel crank to it though and had everything balanced, I even spent the few pennies to have the rods polished. I know big investment.
Mopar 590 cam
torker 2 intake
452 heads with mild mild porting basically took the casting burrs off.
chevy valves with smaller diameter to lighten it up a bit.
BG 775 gold claw carb

This motor is about 8:1 compression run on pump gas has run a best of 10.49 all motor, no spray....you think I would spray a motor t his weak?
I would say a conservative estimate on the motor would be about 1200 runs or so. New bearing about every 5 years, new rings too....
This motor was built for about..... 800 bucks.... 10.4s for 800 bucks and this is in a door car, no dragster here.

New motor is a little more wild, 13.5:1, alky injected, will stay with the same heads now with the alky. Hoping for mid 9s.

moeflo
01-22-2003, 11:26 PM
That's the good part of bracket racing. You can go pretty fast, without alot in the motor. But, the first whole second you chop off your ET, will cost less than the next quarter-second, which will cost less than the next tenth........to the point of spending thousands to chop another hundreth, or two.

The golden rule: how fast do you want to spend.

moeflo
01-22-2003, 11:44 PM
And as B1-ken hints at, and Dart points out, how much of this "port velocity" school of thought, is derived from the OEM(only ones who can afford the research) and how much pretains to part-throttle operation. It ain't so simple as checking port cc's and determining what size motor is required. One of the biggest sets of 18-deg chevy heads we ever did, ( in cc terms) went on a 292ci motor. It picked up 15 hundreths, over the "professionally-ported" heads. And the most noticeable difference was in increased low end torque. Do your own testing, and do not believe half of the crap you read.

It's not that simple, it's NEVER that simple.............

b-1ken
01-22-2003, 11:57 PM
Have to agree with that. Just show me the time slip. All the rest is B.S.

b-1ken
01-24-2003, 02:47 PM
Early in this thread, a formula was used to calculate HP from 1/4 mile speed & weight. The formula was HP = (mph cubed x Wt) / 234 cubed. I use this formula all of the time for comparison purposes and it works O.K. One thing that is NOT a constant, though is the 234 number. That number is heavily dependant upon the aerodynamics of the car. My 499 B-1 Barracuda could go 152 mph @ 3000 lbs (good air). This calculates out to 822 HP.
The same engine in my roadster was capable of going 164 (good air) @ 2130 lbs. That calculates to only 733 HP. To get back to the 822 HP we'd need a number of 225 instead of 234 (because of the lousy aerodynamics of the roadster). Also, it was felt that this HP number was WHEEL HP. I think it is more likely flywheel HP because of the numbers that come out of it. The 440 that we originally had in the 'Cuda, dyno'ed at 530 corrected (60 deg. dry air , 29.92 Barom) HP on our school dyno with an 800 Holley. It ran 135 mph @ 2920 lbs with a 1050 Dominator. That calculates (using 234) to 560 HP. If the Dominator was worth 25 HP (reasonable) the dyno room HP would be 530 + 25 = 555 HP. REAL close to the formula number assuming FLYWHEEL HP. I asked a local speed shop owner if he had a comparison between chassis dyno HP and Dyno room HP (he had both) and he said that you lose 20% on the chassis dyno. I'll assume that the test car had an automatic trans. If you assumed the formula was wheel HP, the 560 HP I calculated would have to be divided by .8 to get the flywheel HP which comes out to 700 HP! I'd like to think that my backyard ported 346 castings with 10.5:1 compression ratio on a 446 engine could make 700 HP, but let's be realistic! Besides, my dyno test on this engine comes very close to the 560 figure (with carburetor upgrade).

DartGT66
01-24-2003, 04:42 PM
calculating from my best speed with the pump gas indy gave me 750 hp, which is 30 less than in the dyno. I feel it's pretty realistic flywheel hp; if it were wheel hp, I should better start professional engine building! .

wildcargo
01-25-2003, 10:52 AM
I am new here but I would like to say in my car it was a matter of fit I am going with the E heads for the ex port not raised . the year before last i ran 906s miled porting car ran 10.69 last year opened them up to the max Epoxie push rod aera the car was not consistent and i could not get it to run good at all best 10.73 I think that a head not desiened for the larg ports is where the problum lies. my frend ran B1s big valve on a 3400# car 440 flat tops 620mp cam the car ran 10.00 it was consistent .if I could deal with fitment problums for the money B1s would be on my car

brktracr
01-25-2003, 04:33 PM
Question for all the head guru's here. I've got a 496 c.i., 440 bored .060 over with Muscle Motors 4.15 stroke crank. Eagle steel rods with Ross (13.5-1) with the 906's ported, polish, milled and 2.18 / 1.81 valves in them, so actual compression is 14.3 - 1. Looking to get a set of aluminums but how much flow and how big a runner do I really need? This is in a '70 Duster, back halved but still with leaf springs, weighing 3200lbs, running 10:30's but it runs a 6.50 1/8th, so I know I'm running out head. I'd like to hear all your recommendations......

Thanks

b-1ken
01-25-2003, 06:36 PM
How much money do you want to spend and how fast do you want to go? The latest heads will flow 490 cfm. If you really want to make power (without juice or boost) that would be the way to go. I've stated before, that I think B-1 original heads are the best HP/$ setup out there. A 496 will peak at about 7600 with mildly ported B-1's. That doesn't mean you have to run it that high though. If you do, you'll need good rods and light pistons. B-1's in spite of their reputation are trouble free if you use T&D rockers. I know Dave Koffel feels that his rockers work fine also, but most people don't think so (I'm neutral here). I would not buy Indy Heads simply because you get more power with B-1's for the same cost (here we go again!). Kevin Garceau feels that running fuel injection with alcohol is a better solution than big heads and high rpm and maybe he's right!

doungta1@aol
01-25-2003, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by thecudaguy
Hi Kevin,

I am fairly new to this group too. I completed a fresh build last year and have researched heads in great length. There is a great book out written by the owner of Muscle Motors called Big Block Mopar Performance. There is an excellent chapter on aftermarket cylinder heads. The 440-1 heads are better for 500cid plus engines due to the larger runner volume. The 440 S/R heads on the other hand were specifically designed for engines with less than 500 cid. This smaller runner size has a very high flow rate (velocity) as compared to the Edlebrock heads. My 440 with S/R heads helped push my 3780 pound 'cuda down the 1320 in 11.33 sec. @ 120.6. So if you do the math... that works out to 517 rear wheel hp. HP = (mph/234) cubed x weight of vehicle. I don't think thats too bad for a std bore 440 and I have'nt got my carb firgured out yet. The cheapest place to buy S/R heads is through World Products. You will need spacers at the end of the valley pan to compensate for the extra height of the heads. Everything else is a perfect fit including stock style manifolds like the M1.

Did you have aftermarket or stock rods while running 11.20. What type of rpm's were you hosting?

thecudaguy
01-26-2003, 12:13 AM
Just to confirm.......I ran low 11.3's all season. I have 6 pack rods in the engine. At the stripe it sees 6600-6800 rpm.

Don't get me wrong the B-1 head is an all time great one. The problem is that everyone thinks it will work great on their engine.
Under 500 CID it will work good. Just keep in mind that to get the same velocity as the S/R heads you'll have to wind it up past 7000 rpm.

See my next post.

thecudaguy
01-26-2003, 02:19 AM
Let me start by saying that I am by no means an expert on cylinder heads. I am just sharing some application info with you people.:D

The Indy S/R heads are very similar to the 440-1 heads in that they both have the same valves and combustion chamber size. (75 cc) The main difference being that the S/R heads have smaller ports making them more suitable to small CID engines.(under 500) These heads come standard with .650 lift springs. This head is a stock replacement head. Meaning that all stock parts will fit except for the head bolts, valley tray and pushrods. This head requires an external oil kit. The S/R heads can be opened up to max wedge size. Stock style headers will fit.

The 440-1 are basically a modified set of ported max wedge heads with 75 cc chambers. Improvements to the runners were made by widening and straightening it. Hence the relocation of the intake pushrod. For use in large bore applications this head can take a 2.25" intake valve easily. The exhaust port has been raised on this head and it has the same angled plug design as the S/R. This head requires the same special parts to install as the S/R head in addition to a new intake.(440-1) A max wedge intake will fit this head, and vise versa. A great head for 500 + CID engines. Special headers required.

The Indy 572-13 head is an all out race head. Designed to fit 4.50" bore blocks. Due to the big valves, 2.30" intakes and 1.88" exhaust. One noticable diffeence with this head are the individual rocker shafts for intake and exhaust. This head flows big numbers. All special parts for install are the same as above with the addition of a new block. Special headers required.

The Brodix B-1 BS head is a stock replacement head except for the
rocker shafts. It is oiled like a stock head, unlike the Indy's. This head has 2.20"/1.81" valves with 65 cc combustion chambers. This small chamber size is the ticket to get high compression on a smaller engine. It's a good street or light bracket head. It has raised exhaust ports and slightly angled plugs. With no work it flows as good as ported stock heads. This heads flows similar to the S/R head. Thus it is suited to smaller CID engines. Stock style headers fit.

The B-1 head has 2.30" intake valves and 1.77" exhaust. Even with the small exhaust valve it has high velocity and flows 70% of intake. The larger intake with the huge runners make for slow velocity. This head will not produce great bottom end power on smaller 440-496 CID engines. The chamber is 72 cc and can be reduced for increased compression.It also has angled plugs like the Indy's. There is only 1 intake that works with these heads and special vavle pockets are required. This head will shine on a 500 + engine. Special headers required.

The B-1 MC is similar to the Indy 572-13 in that it to requires a large bore block. Upgraded from the B-1 is the relocated 2.40" intake valve. This enables the head to flow 10% more than the B-1. Again there are special parts for installation of this head. This head cannot be matched for flow and is the one to use for all out horsepower. Special headers required.

The Edelbrock RPM head is similar to the Indy S/R head in that all stock parts fit. Flowing 291 cfm on the intake and 214 cfm on the exhaust at .600" lift which leaves them a little shy of the S/R heads from the start. These heads feature angled spark plugs and 1-piece, stainless steel 2.14" intake and 1.81" exhaust valves. They can be ordered with 84 or 88 cc chambers. Intake flange, bolt holes, valve cover and rocker shafts are in the stock location. Stock style headers fit.

Mopar stage 5 heads are similar to the S/R heads but I personally have a problem with the castings. So, as mom would say.......I have nothing to say.

No matter what you decide just keep in mind that big heads on a small engine will not produce good low-mid range numbers but will be a high RPM screamer . On the other side, small heads on a bigger engine will create a low end torque monster but will probably explode above 6500. In choosing a set of heads, like any other major part, consider your application and where you want that seat of the pants feel to be, low or high RPM it's your choice. All of these heads need some special parts to work, some more alot than others.

So here is my break down for maximum power in a usable RPM range, keeeping in mind that any head will work on any combo, I am after max power throughout the broadest range.

Below 500 CID use the Indy S/R or Brodix B-1 BS.
For 500-540 CID use the B-1 or 440-1.
For 540+ CID engines you have the Indy 572-13 and Brodix B-1 MC.

As with anything you need to consider how much cash you want to lay down for the extra pieces needed to fit your new heads.

This is my opinion and it is not up for debate. If I can help 1 person, writing this was worth it.
I spent alot of time researching before I bought exactly what I needed for my application. You should do the same!

Please if you see a statistical error let me know.

Mopar to Ya! :D

MoparBilly G
01-26-2003, 10:28 AM
I agree with alot of what has been said on these posts...much of what goes into the decision is up to your application...and far more importantly YOUR BUDGET!! B-1Ken stated that "if you are laying out the cash, get the best", but that is a blanket statement, because the cash expended varies greatly!!

The B-1 and Indy 440-1 heads are serious race heads, and I've seen both go very fast, I've also seen both of those heads have repeated rocker arm trouble with the rockers that come with them over 700 lift.
So if you want reliability as well as big power, you need to figure in the cost of T&D, or Jesel rocker gear. ALSO, ifstaying with the same block height, you may very well need new headers, which, in my neck of the woods are easily another 1000 for custom built.

So who is ready to admit the TRUE cost of taking an existing race car, and converting it to an Indy 440-1 or B-1 top-end??? I think it's in the 5000-6000$ range easily.

My conversion to Edelbrocks was 1500$, because I was able to re-use my headers, Intake, Valve covers, rockers etc.!

Because I run a solid cam, The ductile Iron rockers are fine...so what is a true retail vs retail comparison between a solid cam/springs/ductile rocker combo...and a Roller Cam/Springs/roller rocker combo. Now what's the cost comparison between a Stroker combo, and a stock crank short-block??

Now I throw 400$ worth of N20 on my combo and go 8.96@147 in a 2885 lb car. I ask you to look around and tell me how many 500 inch Indy or B-1 cars can run that?? So you say well, if they had nitrous!! But the truth is they are already on the ragged edge of what thier stock block can handle, and since they have so much invested, they are afraid of hurting it, so a huge N20 shot isn't an option for most of them!!

B-1 Ken said that "Cyl pressure is Cyl pressure, and nitous can't be easier on the bottom end than B-1's"....not exactly true...because I can go bracket racing every weekend running 10.0's, and never hit the bottle, and thats much easier on my 12.1, 6400 rpm short block, than a 13.5, 7500 rpm short block

Is a 500" B-1, roller cam, engine faster...Absolutely, I can't argue that fact. But it isn't more reliable, and its far more expensive to build.

b-1ken
01-26-2003, 11:46 AM
I used to bracket race 440's for years running stock rods and backyard ported 346 castings. The engines made decent power and would hold together very well as long as you didn't take them much over 7200 rpm (they make peak power at about 5900 so why would you anyway?). The thought of buzzing a BB Mopar to 7700 rpm would have scared the crap out of me at the time. Then I built my 499 B-1 engine which hits the finish line at 7500-7600 rpm. I use a 400 block with Eagle BB Chev. + .400 rods and 685 gram (with pin) Venolia pistons. This engine has proven to be very reliable with the exception of cracked crankshafts (That's ALL you say?!!). I feel that the crank problem is more me "chipping" the engine on the starting line than an rpm issue. The point is, if you're going to put a decent set of rods and light pistons in your engine, 7600 rpm won't hurt a thing.

MoparBilly G
01-27-2003, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by b-1ken
I used to bracket race 440's for years running stock rods and backyard ported 346 castings. The engines made decent power and would hold together very well. Then I built my 499 B-1 engine. I use a 400 block with Eagle BB Chev. + .400 rods and 685 gram (with pin) Venolia pistons. This engine has proven to be very reliable with the exception of cracked crankshafts (That's ALL you say?!!). I feel that the crank problem is more me "chipping" the engine on the starting line than an rpm issue.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by b-1ken
I've stated before, that I think original B-1 heads are the best HP/$ setup out there. ...........Have to agree with that. Just show me the time slip. All the rest is B.S.............This is not a squabble - just the facts. .................My 499 B-1 Barracuda could go 152 mph @ 3000 lbs (good air).The 440 that we originally had in the 'Cuda, ran 135 mph @ 2920 lbs with a 1050 Dominator.

Ken,
So far, you've shown to have thick skin, and the ability to debate without slinging mud, or getting personal, and you have a great deal of "on-track experience", so let's take this a step further, and see if we can't provide some solid info for the guys on here to look at and try to do the best to support our opposing views!!
First things First........Were you fudging the weight of your Cuda to help the HP numbers??? I have a hard time beleiving it weighed 3000 with a 400 blk B-1 combo, and weighed 2920 with a 440 steel head combo!!! My brother went from a 440 steel head to 400 Indy head and lost 90lbs!!!
2nd....Did you have to replace your headers?? My brother went from a high deck stock head, to the Indy/low deck, and with some beating and massaging, was able to keep his headers, but it was close, and not pretty!!
3rd...You say B-1 is the BEST HP/$ which I strongly dis-agree, granted, I would have jumped in heart-beat at the deal you got, but lay your 499 B-1 out using published retail prices for new parts, what it would take to duplicate, and I'll do the same and we'll let the guys who are shopping decide!!
4th...Show us some time slips of the Cuda...preferably off the stop, but if not, on..with all the incrementals.....Like you said, Just the facts.

b-1ken
01-27-2003, 01:46 PM
Billy G: Thanks for the compliment with regard to my agenda. It's true that anybody can write anything they wish with regard to performance numbers and weights, so I don't object to your scepticism. I was wondering if someone would pick up on the weight gain going from the 440 to the B-1 engine. I'll explain:
1. We changed the axles from 31 spline to 35 spline (Ford 9") because the B-1 engine wrung the 31's off! (+10 - 15 lbs. ?)
2. We put a heavier battery in the car (+ 15 lbs.)
3. The driver gained weight! (+10lbs)
4. The block was filled to the water pump holes (??)
The car was weighed at Englishtown N.J. on a number of occasions. The last weight that we got was at a divisional race with my son driving (weighs less than me but won't tell me how much!). He told me it scaled at 3007 lbs. (with 499 B-1). I also weighed the heads and manifold from both engines and the total was the same. The 8.96 was run with me driving at a local track on Long Island. It was about 45 degrees with a 30 in. barometer. My son drove it once without the throttle stop (Engishtown) with a 70 deg. temp and a pretty good headwind to a 9.07 @ 147 mph. On the stop, the car has run 147.8 mph with a throttle off time of 3.5 seconds (to run 10.90). We find that we lose about 1 mph per second of throttle off time so the car should have run 151 with a full throttle run.
About the headers. I personally fabricated the headers for both the 440 and the low deck B-1. The car is a mild steel tube chassis car that I built myself. We pulled out the 440 and dropped in the B-1 without changing the headers (or anything else for that matter). They bolted right up and cleared the floor with what seemed to be about the same distance (maybe a little closer). Needless to say, this was a happy surprise (but true!). You are probably thinking about now "A round tube chassis car that weighs 3000 lbs? - NO FRIGGIN' WAY!! The car has the original glass with stock window mechanisms. As a matter of fact the entire body is intact (with the exception of the hood) including the trunk hinges & springs. I weigh about 230 + driver suit & helmet.
If I could figure out how to send pictures of the car and time slips I would (and will) but I don't know how yet.
By the way, the 499 B-1 That I originally put in the Barracuda is in my 2400 lb. '88 T-Bird Super Gas car. That car ran an 8.32 at 164.5 mph at Delmar last April on the only full throttle run that I've made with that car. That engine has had about 600 runs on it. If you use the HP from mph & weight formula you get 833 HP. Admittedly, It was real good air but no tailwind.

doungta1@aol
01-27-2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by thecudaguy
Just to confirm.......I ran low 11.3's all season. I have 6 pack rods in the engine. At the stripe it sees 6600-6800 rpm.

Don't get me wrong the B-1 head is an all time great one. The problem is that everyone thinks it will work great on their engine.
Under 500 CID it will work good. Just keep in mind that to get the same velocity as the S/R heads you'll have to wind it up past 7000 rpm.

See my next post.

I have a 440 with stock rods and some heavy TRW 10.5:1 with SR heads. Do you think I'll have major concerns if I shift around 6500?

I hope to pick up a Indy rotating kit next year but don't want to put one of those heavy piston's through the SR's.

MoparBilly G
01-27-2003, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by brktracr
Question for all the head guru's here. I've got a 496 c.i., 440 bored .060 over with Muscle Motors 4.15 stroke crank. Eagle steel rods with Ross (13.5-1) with the 906's ported, polish, milled and 2.18 / 1.81 valves in them, so actual compression is 14.3 - 1. Looking to get a set of aluminums but how much flow and how big a runner do I really need? This is in a '70 Duster, back halved but still with leaf springs, weighing 3200lbs, running 10:30's but it runs a 6.50 1/8th, so I know I'm running out head. I'd like to hear all your recommendations......

Thanks

My concern for your combo is the bump on your pistons...The B-1's(help is needed here Ken), have a very small combustion chamber, and the Indy's do as well, Even the Edelbrocks have a slightly revised chamber, so I'm not sure what will clear those domes!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by doungta1
I have a 440 with stock rods and some heavy TRW 10.5:1 with SR heads. Do you think I'll have major concerns if I shift around 6500?

doungta1,
I had a 440 in my car which regularly seen 6500 for two seasons with stock rods and 11.5 TRW's ( a little over 200 runs) and my brother had a 440 in his regularly seen 7200 for over 300 passes with the same combo. We both broke the LY rods, when we used heavy doses of nitrous...425 for me, and 300 for him.

When mine broke, I had put the Edelbrock heads on only 8 passes earlier, and It let go at 1100 feet on a 9.23@142 pass! Broke the cam, and the piston hit the head real hard.. but an .010 cleanup on the deck, and 8 new valves later, I was back in business...That's the beauty of Aluminum, it's easier to repair than steel heads.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by the cuda guy

The Indy S/R heads are very similar to the 440-1 heads in that they both have the same valves and combustion chamber size. (75 cc) The main difference being that the S/R heads have smaller ports making them more suitable to small CID engines.(under 500) These heads come standard with .650 lift springs. This head is a stock replacement head. Meaning that all stock parts will fit except for the head bolts, valley tray and pushrods. This head requires an external oil kit. The S/R heads can be opened up to max wedge size. Stock style headers will fit.

On Indy S/R heads, the exhaust port is the exact same port as the 440-1's so it requires headers, because of the raised port.
One of my brothers has Indy -1's and My Dad has S/R's...There seems to be a misconception that these two eads are different castings...This isn't true, they are the same casting, just machined differently They cut huge slots in the intake port castings to allow the pushrods to clear with the standard style rockers, and then you have a stock style intake port opening as apposed to Max Wedge size for the 440-1's.

moeflo
01-27-2003, 10:01 PM
Moparbilly, I was wondering if the SR's were 440-1's with the machine work you mention. The push-rod "intrusion" seems way out of place. I.E. the rest of the runner looks like it came from a different head, compared to that pushrod opening. I guess with some minor rework of the casting patterns, they could offer this head without the burdon of doing an entirely new piece.

thecudaguy
01-27-2003, 10:23 PM
It may look like the same casting but guess what ......it is not. The 440-1 has a completely different intake port design. This cannot be modified from the S/R which has the intake port in the stock location. Also, because of this extremely altered intake you can't even use the stock style intake manifold. The only error I made was that the special headers are not required for the 440-1. It was 2:00 am when I typed that, sorry. If you are in doubt check the Indy site.

One more thing, I have not seen your dads' heads but my S/R heads have 2" super comps bolted to them in a '70 cuda no problemo! They are not special at all.

brktracr
01-27-2003, 10:32 PM
The question I still have is.... For my combo, earlier posted, what size runners and flow numbers do I really need to optimize the setup.... any clues?

thecudaguy
01-27-2003, 10:40 PM
You did not display your cam specs. You will not get an accurate response without this info. I'm guessing that with that setup your in the .650+ lift range. If that is the case you would be looking for flow rates of 430 cfm plus @ 28". The B-1 or the 440-1 would be excellent choices for your combo. You would not be dissappointed with either.

MoparBilly G
01-27-2003, 10:59 PM
It's VERY well documented that the exhaust port on Indy Heads is raised!! If your headers worked, congatulations...but very many people have had problems on High deck motors. Any Intake that will bolt on a 440-1 will bolt on a 440 S/R.

Brktracr,
Where do you race in San Diego?? I don't have a flow bench, and don't know how to tell if the numbers they hand out are trua anyway, so I don't put much stock in that stuff...I DO know you need to lose the 5.13 gears!!! With a 4.56 or even 4.30 you won't be "running out of head" at the top end!!!!

thecudaguy
01-27-2003, 11:20 PM
All I can say to that is if you believe everything that you read and you have been misinformed unknowingly how can you help others? If you are building engines and are not concerned with flow numbers " don't put stock in that stuff" then how can you expect others to validate what you are saying? If you have a .700 lift cam and your heads have been flowed to .650, you have not maximized the potential of that particular combination.

The building of an engine is a science. That science is physics. An engine is an "Air Pump". That pump relies on the properties of flow to work at or near maximum efficiency. If you have built engines successfully without considering this, you can pick my next lottery numbers.:thumbsup:

I am not here to argue with you about this. Remember, everything that you type can be seen by 25,000 + members, most of which do not have the funds available for trial and error engine building.:(

DartGT66
01-28-2003, 04:14 AM
I believe all aluminum BB heads except the E-brocks have the exhaust ports raised considerably, possibly causing heder fit problems. Even the Stage VI's have them raised closer to 1/2", no matter what they say. I just ported a set of 440-1's last weekend, they had 82-83cc chambers out of the box instead of the advertised 75cc. I have never seen Indy SR's, so I can't say anything about them, but I have been pretty happy with the 440-1's. I have below 0.7" lift, and have not experienced valvetrain problems. They seem to put out good power too. I think they are still on estep below the B1's in cost and in alla out performance too. Despite of the initial purchase price being close to the same, you need custom pistons with B1's making them more expensive, and if you have to replace on you won't get it from a grocery store. Same is true with the intake gaskets. Maybe these are not big deals, but still worth considering. I feel that the 440-1's have a place of their own, and fill that purpose very well. BTW, just got a cam for our pump gas B1 499, the numbers are 276/292 degrees@.050" and 0.75/0.72" lift.

thecudaguy
01-28-2003, 06:06 AM
Yes they all have raised exhaust ports but the stock bolt pattern has been retained on the S/R and 440-1's. What are you running for headers? Have you encountered problems with the 440-1 in regards to header fit?
That new combo sounds like a screamer!:D

MoparBilly G
01-28-2003, 06:51 AM
thecudaguy,
Have you seen 440-1's and S/R's side by side?? I have! Have you seen flow numbers that were proven to be generous or even down right bogus?? I have!
It really gets my blood boiling when Manufacturers and porters throw these numbers around and use them to take thousands of dollars from racers who are just trying to go fast for the least amount of cash outlay.
The only numbers that really matter are 60', 330', 1/8, 1/8 MPH, 1000', 1/4, 1/4 MPH....Those,. my friend, are physics at it's purest form!!!

Let's look at brktracr,
His post signature clearly states he is running .600 lift, he has a leaf spring duster going 1.41 '60, and he feels that due to a 6.50 short time and 10.30 1/4 he is running out of head, and he wants to know what flow would be best for his combo.
LET ME USE THIS EXAMPLE TO BE BLUNT, AND SHOW HOW YOU CAN ACTUALLY READ SOMEONE"S POST AND TRY TO HELP THEM SPECIFICALLY WITHOUT PLAYING ONE-UPMANSHIP!!!!
With a 5500 stall, the 5.13's are useless,. especially with a leaf spring car, and a stroker. The change to 4.56 or 4.30 or even 4.10 would help tremendously by putting the engine in it's torque range longer, and effectively use the converter to move the car. What is the current Mph at 1/8 and 1/4, What is the Cam duration? My reccomendation at this point would be to run the Heads you have til they break, and step up to an Ultradyne 304/640 cam and change the gears. Then decide if the budget allows for 1500$ Edelbrocks, or a 5000 to 6000$ top end.

DartGT66
01-28-2003, 06:59 AM
B1's have the stock exhaust flange bolt pattern too. Many of the cheaper headers do not have enough material in the flanges to match to the height of the Indy exhaust ports and still not burn the gaskets every other day. The A-body Hooker Super Comps could be matched to that size, but in the '66 and the new B1 we have self made flanges & headers. Took the block to the machine shop today to have the aluminum main caps installed, still have the pistons to do, the valve reliefs have to be relocated for the B1's.

brktracr
01-28-2003, 09:53 PM
The cam duration is 279 / 281 @ .050. The 1/8 mile mph is 105, 1/4 mile is 124-125. The 5.13's were in the car when I had a 452 c.i. 10.5-1 comp. motor in the car. This motor only has 10 passes on it. I did hurt one of the 906 heads. Part of the reason for my questions.

I know I need to change gear ratios but still only going thru the lights at 7200 rpm's.

From everything everyone has said, I think my solution is put another 906 on the beast and start saving the $$$$ to get 440-1 or B1's.

I'd like to thank everyone for all the input. Really appreciate it.

MOPARMANJAMES
01-29-2003, 04:59 AM
Originally posted by b-1ken
Sorry, I'm not biting on your "guess how much power survey". You (me) only can look stupid (more than usual).
Ken B.
P.S. My favorite head is a 12 deg. Big Chief (or even 14 deg.). Those flow BIG numbers and those engines HONK! I know this is blasphemy, but facts is facts.

No! Back SATAN! Leave our Mopar brother and let him convert to Stage V Hemi Heads! Big Chief Bad, Hemi Good!

Dude, you Super Gas guys are a little off anyway, spending all that money to build a fast car and then slowing it down to go racing...

Damn! It took me an hour to read this whole thread and that's all I had to say? :whack:

It's late, the man's got a light car, he's gonna go fast no matter what head he puts on it and he doesn't want to go over 6800 with his 440ci engine.
Hell, the stock eliminator guys spin faster than that with factory heads.
He doesn't want to run 8's or he'll have to rebuild the chassis, so I vote for:

1- Just keep the stock ported heads and run 9's, or

2- Just go all out, get the B1's, rebuild the chassis and haul ass.

It's your money, and your Ego, are 9's fast enough?

b-1ken
01-29-2003, 02:36 PM
James: They don't call it "Stupid Gas" for nothing! In the past 8 years, I've probably made FIVE full throttle runs. We get hammered all the time by racers, and traditionlist observers and we're used to it (sort of). The National Dragster often has letters from some A--hole, NON racer(not you of course) that thinks throttle stops should be banned. My comment is simply - shut up and mind your own business - we LIKE it! It ain't easy to go rounds out there and it takes all of your energy (and some money too) to be really good at it. If you polled all of the Super Gas racers and asked them what they'd really like to run if money was no object, I'd guess that Pro Stock would win out (that would be my choice I guess). I got tired of bracket racing in the 70's and quit for a while to play softball. I really wanted to run NHRA class racing but I HATED that stupid 5 bulb (now 3 of course) tree. The main difference is the Pro .400 tree. The heads up start with the pro tree makes this class attractive to me. Also, there are no rules with regard to engine size which keeps it interesting. We're not allowed to use nitrous, but anything else goes. These cars may not 60' very well but they sure do pick it up after 200' out. One guy from Ohio goes 185 MPH at 9.90! Mine only goes about 158 @ 9.90 but that's still pretty fast. Anyway, it's a very popular category and the staging lanes usually have 80 to 120 cars in the first round (Division I). As I suggested, if someone else were paying the bills I'd run flat out. For now, I do this and really enjoy T-Stop racing.
Ken B. SG/1160:)

thecudaguy
01-29-2003, 10:45 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MoparBilly G
[B]thecudaguy,
Have you seen 440-1's and S/R's side by side?? I have! Have you seen flow numbers that were proven to be generous or even down right bogus?? I have!
It really gets my blood boiling when Manufacturers and porters throw these numbers around and use them to take thousands of dollars from racers who are just trying to go fast for the least amount of cash outlay.
The only numbers that really matter are 60', 330', 1/8, 1/8 MPH, 1000', 1/4, 1/4 MPH....Those,. my friend, are physics at it's purest form!!!

Would you like to build your own flow bench for under $1100.?
I built mine right out high school and had it tested against a superflow. It is within 2% of being correct. My bench always reads high. But knowing this I can test any head with 100% confidence. I will start a new thread if your interested.

b-1ken
01-30-2003, 12:37 AM
I'd be interested. I built a crude flow bench a few years ago. It worked O.K. for comparison tests but I couldn't relate it to cfm @ 28". I now use a Superflow 110 which we have at the school. It can only pull about 4" with B-1 heads, but the numbers convert to 28" pretty accurately.
Ken B.

J-BODY
01-30-2003, 09:56 AM
Interesting reading. I'm unable to contribute any useful information here as I am just a lowly stage VI owner. Yeah yeah, I know....SIT DOWN! Personally today I would go with the Indy SR's if I were shopping for a 10 sec package. They have the potential to go more so if you wanted to step up in the porting department. Good building block for power.

Kevin Garceau
01-30-2003, 01:10 PM
Jbody...
I would never purchase aftermarket heads to run in the 10s. Defintely not needed. Total waste of money. My old combo had less than 8:1 compression ratio. Stock heads with mild cleaning up of the chambers and ports but no serious grinding. 590 mechanical cam. In a door car it ran 10.50s

As I have stated earlier since I began this post I have switched directions. I took the money I was going to spend on heads and bought an alky injection system. Alky builds more tq, and I can set up my combo ro run less rpms than with gas. I will cross the finish line at under 7k. I doubt big dollar heads would have a large impact at that low of an rpms. Some yes, save on weight definetly. But with this motor, I should have about 3k in it from injection to oil pan. That included new pistons, rods, cam, roller lifters and using my old heads and harland sharp rockers. Should put it in the mid 9s.

When I switch to the stroker motor I believe I will be going with B1s. Not sure about the originals or the BS. Will wait and see and match it to the combo at the time. That motor will see more rpms. I am not afraid to spin motors that are built for it. I trap my big block chevy at 8200rpms. The SBC that is going in the dragster next year will probably see 9,000rpms. But this is a Nascar motor and needs the rpms. The key is having a motor built specifically for the rpms, and having quality parts especially the valve train.

Go ahead with the schoolboy comments about chevys that is fine. I am a mopar man at heart but know there are times when it is much more cost effective to run something different. Lets face it money moves this world. Look at what you can get out there for chevys, Big Chiefs are dirt cheap now because everyone is going with the profilers. You can get big chiefs flowing upper 400s for about 3k right now. Those are complete. My buddy has connections to nascar, he is building a SB2 motor small block and it will dyno in the upper 800 range with a mild tune up. It will have the crank Dale Jr. ran that he won the pole with. So yes I love mopars and they are my first choice as I grew up with them. My father raced them in the 60s and still does today. Dont forget when Alderman and Geoffrion were running after their nitrous ordeal, they were running a motor that more resembled a GM than any mopar I have ever seen.
This post got more replies than thought, alot of it just the typical pissing match but at least it has been entertaining..... keep going please long winter need something to keep me busy.

b-1ken
01-30-2003, 05:40 PM
Kevin: Hang in there with the Chrysler, it shows fortitude (or something, I'm not sure what - maybe stupidity). I certainly can't disagree with your choice to run alcohol. I don't understand you buying b-s heads later on though. THAT seems like a waste of money. Just imagine how that thing would run with alky AND B-1's! A guy at Lebanon valley (track I occasionaly run at) has a Duster with a B-1 bs engine and the damn thing is 12 mph slower than my Barracuda with the 440 with my home ported 346's! The shameful thing is that he has these HUGE B-1 stickers plastered on the side of his hood scoop! He should be taken out and whipped for giving B-1's a bad name. I happen to agree whole heartedly about not buying aftermarket heads to run in the 10's. Nine's yes, but not 10's.
Ken B.

b-1ken
01-30-2003, 05:58 PM
Hey James: My E-mail address is kb426hemi, and I named my son after Keith Black so I DO have respect for the elephant. I only know what I see though, and what I see is a 572 stage V Hemi Super Comp dragster (sponsored by Indy) that only goes about 167 mph (at 8.90 on the stop). There is a Super Gas Camaro in our division with a Big Chief 540 (or 555) that goes that fast. I think that my 499 B-1 would go 170+ in a Super Comp dragster. I am not at all impressed with that 572 Hemi. If I did go out and build a killer engine it would probably be a 572 with NRC (I think that's the brand) heads. Hmm .. maybe if I built a Big Chief engine and put the distributor in the front and Mopar stickers on the valve covers ... nobody would notice.:)

MoparBilly G
01-30-2003, 08:28 PM
Kev, kev,
Nice try but no dice...If you are going with a tiolet, I suppose you are giving up on SST-HR and just running all-out?? If you try to t-stop that toilet give me a call, I'm always looking for an easy first round! Talk about a total waste of money!!!

It's obvious to me that you enjoyed stirring the pot and sitting back, but sometimes you may get more than you ask for...

Ken, Are you refering to Ekhardts SC digger??

MOPARMANJAMES
01-30-2003, 08:35 PM
Sorry it took me so long to reply, I had to change ISP's.

Ken, I must have hit a sore spot. You are really dragging that Hemi over the coals. Oh and that one under the belt about the distributor hurt! ouch!
Do you know the particulars of the engine? I don't but I have seen flow #'s for those stage v's and I think they'll keep up with the big chiefs.
I don't know the reason for the low mph but I don't think its the head's fault.

Since you only know what you see, next time your looking at that Super comp dragster with the poor engine combo, look over at the Super Stockers.
Last I checked, a ported 30 year old 426ci Super Stock Hemi was running 8.7 at around 150mph weighing about 3200 lbs.
I think that's just a little more impressive than a light Super Gas Camaro with a Big Chief 540 in it.
Oh and you don't need mopar stickers on the valve covers, the chevy boys know what kind of valve cover that is.

That's probably why you didn't name your son Big Chief.:D

moeflo
01-30-2003, 09:23 PM
EVERBODY's right. Not sure where big chiefs can be had for 3k, but , if you're willing to run a 6.4 or longer valve made from stainless, someone out there will sell it. But even at that, you're aren't half way to a running big-chief changeover. The problem with bracket racing, is one can't have a clue how good a motor is, by their times, or mph. Does the hemi use a combination that affords 400 runs on a set of springs? I've done sbc heads for a S/C door car that went 160mph, on the stop. But I'd never run a super-class combination, that way.(lots of cam lots of cr, etc. But to each his own. You could pull the steel headed motor out of Bucky Hess' ss/aa barracuda, stick it in a dragster, and run low 7's. But it's not the smart way to bracket race.

And yes, good hemi heads can be had(like stageV) that can run with big chiefs.

Things are alot more equal than they used to be. In the used market, chevy's have the edge. Not enough of an edge for me to consider one, but they have an edge.

I don't see this as a "pissing contest". You throw out a subject and people state thier preferences. Then, they have to defend thier choice. With those exchanges in front of you, you can make a decision without the hype, from a seller.

good stuff.......

b-1ken
01-31-2003, 12:04 AM
Hi guys, Just havin' some fun. I don't get all wound up over this. I figured I'd stir up some crap with the hemi thing. That same racer with the 572 hemi dragster also has a 528 Indy wedge engine in a '27 T roadster which is slower than my 499 B-1 roadster by about 10 mph (when my engine was fresh at least). There's a guy who lives in my town who runs a small block (413 c.i.) Chevy that runs 167 @ 8.90. And no, it's not a comp eliminator engine either. That's shameful that a 572 Hemiroid can't run any faster than that weenie sbc!
As far as a toilet in Super Gas goes, I know of one that smoked my butt first round at a divisional race 2 years ago. A .402 light with a 9.91 run made quick work of me! (I had a .410 & a 9.93)
As I've said before, these posts are fun, just don't take em' too seriously
Hey James, I just noticed that you live in Henderson, Nevada. I have a friend (from Long Island) who lives, er commutes there as well. He's also a Mopar guy. And by the way, you could probably buy two houses in Henderson for what Bucky Hess has spent at Barton's for that horsepower.:)

Kevin Garceau
01-31-2003, 02:57 PM
Billy G
I will be sure to give ya a holler If I am ever that far south. I think the farthest south I will be this year is Kentucky but that is still teh wrong direction from ya.
Also it is very effective to run a toilet or the terminator on the trottle stop. BUT you MUST have them set up properly. You can not have the barrel valve open at all while on the stop. You must throw out everything you are thinking about a carb on the stop and not apply it to the injection. If the barrel valve is open at all any amount...it will dump fuel in the motor, fuel in the motor with the throttle blade closed as you know is not a good thing. RICH RICH RICH. This is the problem that most are experiencing running throttle stops and the injection systems. I doubt if you have heard of James Monroe, but if you vist other sites on the net you might have. He is considered the injection Guru even by the techs at Rons. He is a dealer for them and helps them alot with customer tech questions. He runs t-stops with his set up and wins lots, lots of cash a year. More than I make in a year and thats not bad. I believe he was the only one at the million this past year with a perfect run!!! Him and I have become pretty good friends over the net. He is setting my system up himself. And will take care of setting the stop also. The car should run 9.5s flat out, so should have MPH on most of the field, although judging mph works both ways as we all know.

As far as the big chiefs, look around they are real cheap right now. Yes I know you have to swap over pistons and such but you have to do that with any high dollar head. As they all have such small chambers, my buddies 632 is getting over 16:1 with a flat top. Although that is a 20k motor....not in my budget ever to spend that much on any make motor.

I also did not start this topic to stir shit.... I started this topic with all intentions of laying down the cash and buying a good head for my combo that would also work in future combos. At the drag expo in Illinois this past month they had several sets of B1 originals going for decent prices, most of them came with the pistons also. I think with the economy as low as it is, people can only get so much for hobby items such as race parts so theya re actully cheaper than a few years ago. This topic I believe has been awesome, I love the debates waging regarding the different brands of heads, when people stick by there guns and say what they mean in defense of something they feel strongly about alot of knowledge is spilled forth.

So keep it coming...
I also issue this challenge, anyone that wants to run against me when we are together lets do it. Dial the cars and put a beer on it... heck look me up afterwards and we will have a beer regardless, or pop if you dont drink. I have to warn ya though I will kill ya on the tree, probably give it up at the stripe though too.....

I am hoping to run the complete division 5 IHRA series this summer. Will see how it works out.

Ken, did you buy your injection system yet?

b-1ken
01-31-2003, 03:39 PM
Kevin: I did contact your guy, James Monroe, about the injection system, and he mailed me back with some prices. I do believe that the system will work with a throttle stop, but I hate to keep experimenting with my wallet. I've been throttle stop racing since 1992 and I STILL can't dial a car worth a shit (at least not what I feel is good, namely a 9.90 every time down the track!). I program my own calculator and the formulas can be adjusted to suit what the car does, so running alky should be no problem, but there's something else going on out there that we (my son and I) haven't figured out. My son dials my car and I dial his. We do this to lessen the burden on the driver. We are SERIOUS Super Class racers! We attend all of the Division races and the two National events in our (Division I) area. I have finished in the top 8 in the division 3 times in the last four years (5th last year). My son finished second in 2001 (9th & 7th the two years prior), and missed the Allstar by 10 points when he lost in the second round at the last race of the season - BUMMER! The Allstar points where the accumulation of TWO seasons for Division I (2001 & 2002) and he was in the lead the entire time until the last two weeks. What I'm trying to say is that if alcohol and fuel injection will turn on the win light for us, I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to buy it. Maybe I'll wait for your appraisal.
Too bad you don't live closer, Kevin. Them's fightin' words (you'll hammer anybody on the tree). Anyway, if we're ever in the same neighborhood, I'd be glad to pound a couple of Buds with you.:)

Kevin Garceau
01-31-2003, 05:42 PM
Ken,
If you hadnt thought about it, do...get the Crew Chief Pro software. It is deadly accurate. It also has good t-stop predictions. I love mine and has won me alot more than I have paid for it. It also keeps track of spending, can break down your r/ts and all that good stuff.
According to mine, my average .500 pro tree last year was .502 not counting redlights.!!!
Yeah New York is a ways a way from me, if you go to Florida for the Moroso or any of the million dollar races let me know.

MoparBilly G
02-01-2003, 12:04 AM
Actually..
My Dad, brother, and I have family in Minnesota, and are strongly considering the Brainerd divisional this year. Our big trip last year was to Denver, where my brother won SST at the Divisional, in our first visit to the mountain, which was very exciting!

MOPARMANJAMES
02-01-2003, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by b-1ken

Hey James, I just noticed that you live in Henderson, Nevada. I have a friend (from Long Island) who lives, er commutes there as well. He's also a Mopar guy. And by the way, you could probably buy two houses in Henderson for what Bucky Hess has spent at Barton's for that horsepower.:)

Ken, I can't argue that, hell, I'm happy just to pick up some used SEMA Mopar beer glasses at the thrift store!

I sure am glad somebody is spending all that money to make us Po' Mopar faithful happy though.
With the onslaught of the aftermarket parts helping out the GM guys, we need a ray of light in the form of Stock and Super Stock to have something to relate to.
I'm not mentioning Top Fuel which everyone knows the Hemi dominates, because to me it's not really attainable and it's pure entertainment.
I prefer the stock classes because while largely a bracket race, you still have heads up racing. With any luck, we'll be back in the Pro Stock hunt this year (Read "Oh God please let this be the year!)
Anyway, I apologize if I haven't offended anyone.;)
I'm glad Kevin decided on the B1's and perhaps there's a Hemi in your future! As for the challenge, lets go on a sportsman tree footbrakin' and your on!

God bless Ray Barton, Dick Landy, Big Daddy, and the Chrysler Hemi! Amen Mopar Brothers.

b-1ken
02-01-2003, 12:16 AM
O.K. Kevin, I have to draw the line here. .502 AVERAGE!! I'm not going to be a smart ass and ask you if you made more than ONE run but.....:D

Kevin Garceau
02-01-2003, 12:21 AM
Hell I will race anyone for a beer....cant lose either way. I would have given ya a beer anyways. It has been a while since I raced with my feet and not my finger. I used to do ok at it, but never really stayed there long enough to get some serious seat time.
That is one helluva an accomplishment to go up on the mountain and come down a winner....way cool.
I run mostly IHRA might throw in an NHRA divisional but my buddies do them and HATE them. No bracket race to go along with it and the IHRA loves us little guys. I know out west IHRA tracks are seriously lacking.

For pro categories NHRA is the only way to go obviously. But for us little sportsman guys the nhra is the best..... they are definetly more racer friendly.

b-1ken
02-01-2003, 12:24 AM
James: I had a REAL hard time rooting for a David Nickens car. My friends used to run comp eliminator with his engines and bought an Olds Cutlass from him as well. That friggin' guy is a crook! I'm glad to see him outta there.:guns:
Foot brake racing? Not me, NEVER! I can't do TWO things at once!:)

Kevin Garceau
02-01-2003, 12:28 AM
Yes Ken....was actually 3 runs....believe it or not I had that average and went out 1st round 3 times...what a bummer. Never got any breaks. 10.90 racing is real tough...everyone can go red and the cars are deadly. Well most anyways. Lost by a total of .012 all three runs. My average for the year full tree racing was under .515 and had to count all the damn oops in there. I can cut the tree down, but have trouble at the stripe. Hopefully this year with some huge mph gain with the new motor willy will help. Around here, mostly dragsters in super pro. And am having trouble spotting them 45 mph. I know its tough both ways but easier catching than looking back. I ran at Byron went to the finals and raced 6 straight dragsters.....what a bummer. Lifted in the finals....LOST.....lol
I actually did much better in my ...ahem...firebird. I ran that on the stop all year 2 years ago. 11.20s at 147mph. I got alot of free rounds when they thought the car broke. I averaged 4.5 rounds a race in that car. Was killer but I sold it. Made good money on it. Then bought a top sporstman type beretta, sold it before I even put my motor in it. Made enough profit on the two to pay for my 28ft enclosed trailer picked it up new from the factory. Just sold one of my BBC's today actually. Made money on that too....so maybe chevys are good for something!!!!
Here is the pic of the firebird..... most wont like it. That pic is on the stop at a divisional race.

Kevin Garceau
02-01-2003, 12:33 AM
Ken

email me at work I am here for another hour and bored to tears....
garcekr@dhfs.state.wi.us

well anyone for that matter!

MOPARMANJAMES
02-01-2003, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by Kevin Garceau

Here is the pic of the firebird..... most wont like it. That pic is on the stop at a divisional race.

Nothing wrong with a FireBird wheels up! Just tell me it was a 455 or 400 and not a 468 pleeeeaaaase!

Kevin Garceau
02-01-2003, 12:43 AM
511 BB chevy....
that car is on the trottle stop there. If no stop it was scarey high. Would go 1.31s on the back tires. 511 cid, turbo 400 with 6200 stall convertor and 488 gears....there is some tq multiplication there boys.....lol
What happened is I had the 488 gears and it needed them. I had a convertor professionally built to my specs and the gears were way overborad. I would trap at 8200rpms!!!!! thank god it was an alum rod motor. That motor pushed my bird 2950lbs to 9.2s and could have had more. We were talking how cheap chevys were I sold it intake to pan for 4k with spare block, crank, pistons, and tons of extras. Just wanted it outta the garage.

MOPARMANJAMES
02-01-2003, 12:54 AM
Whoa! 8200, in a 511 chevy big block! That thing must have been singing like the fat lady!

b-1ken
02-01-2003, 01:34 AM
Say good night, Gracie. It's 12:30 AM here, and I missed Jay Leno, talking to you humps. Kevin, how many cars did (do) you own? That Firebird looks O.K. I get a kick out of how hurt James gets when somebody shows (or respects) a GM product. You're a funny guy.:)

MOPARMANJAMES
02-01-2003, 01:47 AM
No disrespect intended, I just said it was singing, even though it was a chevie!
I just see gray after more than 10 bazillion nuther nutter butter peanut butter sandwich cookie chevies. I don't have much against Pontiacs and actually like Oldsmobiles and Buicks.
At the track, it's out the window anyway and we all help each other, hey, your'e not the only one allowed to poke fun!

MoparBilly G
02-01-2003, 03:08 AM
Actually Kevin,
The Div.5 races in NHRA DO feature a bracket race on saturday, which you pay extra for...I think 4 of them last year were won by SST cars!!
The Div. 5 NHRA guys are awesome to race with...but my home division..7..is a pain...just too many cars..over 900 at the last race in Vegas...took them 2 1/2 hours to run one session of SC!! We got two time runs on friday, then first round saturday morning..it was a disaster!! Great track though.

J-BODY
02-01-2003, 10:32 PM
Boy this turned into a big t-stop, delay box group hug! I love seeing what you guys are throwing at the track with the different combos of Mopar power. Quite interesting, and Kev, while your're iron head 8.1 mild cam engine works wonders for you, I don't think it would even break into the 10's in my "door car".

b-1ken
02-02-2003, 09:59 PM
Billy G: That's a shitload of cars (divisional race). We have a lot of cars at our divisional races (Div I), but I don't think quite that many. The problem with Super Comp is that they let them do burnouts across the starting line. I'd like to see them use front brakes so they could do a burnout in the water like everyone else. That would save a load of time!

Kevin Garceau
02-05-2003, 09:49 PM
Well was going back through old posts and see I missed a question....How many cars have I owned or do own... too many probably.
My first race car in high school was a 440 dart. I wanted a street car and dad said no way, if I help it is a trailer queen not going to your funeral for being foolish...gotta respect that. Here is a pic, the tunnel ram was only on their for looks, it killed performance. I was broke and only ran 11.1s with it, didnt even have a manual valve body in it....but it was safe. The bottom pic was my brother at 16 with his mopar. That one with the little motor ran low 12s and mid 11s with his good motor. He also won NHRA div 3 bracket finals at age 16....

Kevin Garceau
02-05-2003, 09:55 PM
ok then.... I sold the dart to help with some college funds.
I was hired to drive for a guy in Illinois for a season and ended up in 6th place. No pics of his car.
Then raced the daytona for a while with my old man which we have seen pics of.
Then I got a good deal on the firebird, bought that and ran that for a while, wanted to go faster so I bought a wicked Chevy Beretta which was an ex NMCA fastest street car shootout car. Was going to put the 565 BBC in it and run some serious mph in 10.90 racing. Pic is below.
Bought my first house last summer and needed to sell a few things, sold the Beretta and took the money and bought a new 28 ft trailer with cabinets and awning. Then went and bought a motorhome because the other half thought it was a good idea.
Oh I sold the bird before the beretta and bought the beretta.
So now I have been racing the daytona exclusively for the past year, it is a father/son deal. We both have a bit invested in it or I wouldnt be able to afford the other things.

b-1ken
02-05-2003, 10:56 PM
Kevin, You were really going to run that Beretta in Super Street? I can hear all of the throttle stop bashers (and Mopar devotees)puking about now (you out there James?). That would have been cool. I had a good time last season, with my son driving the Barracuda. When the scoreboard lit up with 147+ mph the Chevy guys all had that look of shock on their faces. I know it's not the fastest S/St car out there but there where at least a couple of 555's that didn't run as fast. One guy asked my son " what is that, a 572 B-1 bomber?". I was proud to inform him that it was a 499. He definitely had that look of "O.K. - don't tell me the truth!" on his face.:)

Kevin Garceau
02-05-2003, 11:41 PM
My engine builder... a top sportsman guy wanted to have built the fastest 10.90 car at the track. He was going to loan me all kinds of parts to do it. He even wanted me to enter both 10.90 and top sporstman at the same event with the same car. We were hoping to put it into the 7s all out, and then throttle stop race it. But I dont know if I would have been all the much mph on the stop since it would have to be on the stop for about a week. That car was all steel too.... sold it way too cheap but wanted it gone. Got 9k for it rolling with tranney and convertor. Should have got about 12 for it but you know money talks. It paid for my new 28 ft trailer with alum cabinets, and awning....

Like I have said before I am mopar at heart but really like all types of fast drag cars. I respect anyone that can get good ets out of any car. My dragster will probably have a 800 plus hp small block chevy in it. Like I said early in the thread I have real good ties to the Nascar world. And will be running one of the SB2 motors, looks like a big block but smaller. No one will know what the hell it is.....lol

At a couple 1/8 mile races I was at the IHRA index is 7.00 dont ask me why its different but the firebird went 7.00 at 114-115 faster than most of the 6.40 guys.....

MOPARMANJAMES
02-06-2003, 01:18 AM
Probably because the 6.40 guys use a ton of gear, kinda cuts down on the mph. That Berretta would have been cool with a B1 engine in it! Kind of like that Guy in NMCA, I forget his name, but he ran a late model Camaro with a small block Mopar in one of the classes and kicked booty.
Yes Ken, I'm still out here waiving my Mopar banner!

Speaking of which, did you guys happen to see the testing results at Vegas? I think the best run over the weekend was from the Coughlin Clan at 6.94. I'm not sure how much the conditions changed but Allen Johnson and D.A. were there Monday and Tuesday and ran 6.86 and 6.88 respectively, I think that's close to a track record for the strip.
I like it!

b-1ken
02-06-2003, 11:50 AM
What are you guys talking about with 6.40? I'm clueless when it comes to IHRA. The NHRA index for 1/8 mile Super Street is 6.90.

James: you're loyal, but not blind, and that's good. I'm not so sure that a "ton of gear" would slow up your 1/8 mile speed unless you didn't shift into high gear. I think Kevin just had more steam than those other guys.
Ken B.

Mopar Racer
02-06-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by MOPARMANJAMES
Probably because the 6.40 guys use a ton of gear, kinda cuts down on the mph. That Berretta would have been cool with a B1 engine in it! Kind of like that Guy in NMCA, I forget his name, but he ran a late model Camaro with a small block Mopar in one of the classes and kicked booty.

His name is DAN POALINI, and I think Tim Davis built the engine

MOPARMANJAMES
02-07-2003, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by b-1ken
What are you guys talking about with 6.40? I'm clueless when it comes to IHRA. The NHRA index for 1/8 mile Super Street is 6.90.

James: you're loyal, but not blind, and that's good. I'm not so sure that a "ton of gear" would slow up your 1/8 mile speed unless you didn't shift into high gear. I think Kevin just had more steam than those other guys.
Ken B.

I guess Kevin said he was running on a 7.00 index and then mentioned some other 6.40 class?

Hey Ken speaking of being loyal but not blind, doesn't that SB2B that Kevin is speaking of look like a small RB block with Ford tall port heads?:D

b-1ken
02-07-2003, 01:08 AM
James: I couldn't find that picture. I rememeber looking at it and wasn't sure what it looked like.

MOPARMANJAMES
02-07-2003, 04:04 AM
Ken- I was just speaking of the SB2B in general, the block casting is much like a big block Mopar, or some Fords for that matter, and the heads are Individual runner like a Ford or a Hemi.
It was an interesting choice by the GM engineers. The LS1 and LS6 are sort of similar to the design also.
Perhaps it is a natural evolution towards a more performance oriented design.;)

b-1ken
02-07-2003, 07:11 PM
James: I'll admit that I don't know anything about it. Is it a "Y" block?
Ken B.

Kevin Garceau
02-10-2003, 05:59 PM
Ok guys sorry for the confusion....

NHRA........ IHRA
1/4
10.90 10.90
9.90 9.90
8.90 8.90



1/8
6.90 7.00 No idea why it is a tenth slower...just is
6.4 6.4

What I was mentioning was my 7.00 ride had more mph than the 6.4 index cars. It would out run most in all out run but being just a backhalved car with stock type front suspension it could no where near cut a .400 light too much travel in the front. It had potential to run 8.8s full throttle but I normally ran it 11.2s at about 147mph. Traction was a huge issue with this car, 1.3 sixtys on the back tires.... 511 motor, th 400, 6200 stall convertor and 4.88 gears had way to much bottom end. Would not run consistent off the throttle stop.

b-1ken
02-14-2003, 03:13 PM
I almost never bracket race, but when I do I always use the throttle stop. I'ts fun to have a 9.88 dial and run 158+ mph. Most guys know what's up but occasionally one will lift early thinking the race is "in the bag". I don't dial 9.90, because that's a dead giveaway. Before I bought it, my T-Bird was used exclusively as a bracket car on Long Island for the past eight years and was a killer. The guy had a series of BB Chevs. in it. The last one was a 632 Big Chief 2 Dominator engine that ran 185+ mph and usually ran dead on (mid 7's). Dragsters (if they didn't know him) would lift, thinking "there ain't NO WAY that a door car is going to catch my 175 mph dragster". They were wrong! I used to watch that car with envy and when it became available I jumped on it. The only problem is that it makes a better bracket car than a Super Gasser. We (my son and I) dialed the roadster just as well as this car. I paid $21K rolling for that T'Bird because it was a professionally built Pro Stock car originally owned by Frank Iaconio. Anyone want to buy that one? I'll keep the roadster!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/p79cddcbd6e919a91bbc1f79d9ea90e5d/fcad258f.jpg

KM
02-15-2003, 02:06 AM
This is MOPARchat.
You are selling a phord here........
OK, but do not expect to get over $2.1K of it

Kimmo

340MAN
02-15-2003, 10:25 AM
Poor Ken, Should put that B1 in a Daytona or Neon body. It will run better being in familiar surroundings, chuckle.
As far as heads go, I run 440-1's on 500 ci 440block. I wind my engine up much like Ken does with his B1 's. I really see very little differance other than the B1's have a little more porting potential past .650 lift. I'll believe that the best choice would be what a person can afford, but mainly what combination they are trying to run with the capability to move upward. To me it would be foolish to by a set of heads that you will outgrow in two seasons. If you plan on staying with a specific combination for a very long time, then I would sugest the most effective head for the least amount of money.
I believe that if you are not going to the 500 ci range, you will not need the 440-1's or B1's.
My opinion, since everyones expressed theirs.

b-1ken
02-18-2003, 03:47 PM
Beatin' up on the old guy, huh? Man! .. Insults all the way from Helsinki! Actually the only thing Phoord about that car is the roof and quarters. It was originally built by Don Ness and later updated (to an '88) by Jerry Hass. I really don't care what make the sheet metal is as long as it does it's job (and looks good). I think my next car will be a '57 Corvette Super Gasser with a B-1. They definitely look cool.
340: Just tell me that you wouldn't LOVE to go down the track in a '27T FORD!
:)

340MAN
02-18-2003, 11:36 PM
Ken, you bet that would make my day. It always makes me feel better when I see a cheby or phord packed with a MOPAR engine.
Thought about stabbing one in a late model t/a or camaro to make those BBC boys wonder what I have that sounds so different. Just cant bring myself to degrade my engine that bad or should I look @ it like you do Ken, Your given them f____g old rebuilt dodges new life - huh -ha ha. well I'm not going to bust your chops cause I've run just about everything with a dodge engine @ some time in my life to make a point. That was I was tired of seeing cheby engines in everything, but what they belonged in.
Ken, you just keep runnin that bad B1 thunder chicken!

KM
02-19-2003, 08:00 AM
Insults ?
No, not my intention anyway.......

I believe you sure have brought some life to that sorry phoord with your B1.
I just think that that engine could give life and glory to something much more appealing to (atleast my) eye.....

....and:
I truly believe that if you are selling it you would get more response (and friendlier than my comments) if you would sell it in a phoord board.
......and someone interested in phoords could give $25t of that (beautiful,professionally built pro stock) phjord.

Kimmo

b-1ken
02-19-2003, 01:24 PM
Nothing wrong with a little humor - Believe me, I'm not insulted. The funny thing is, that when Ford guys look at the car, they love the fact that it has a Chrysler engine in it. Just as long as it's not a Chevy. It seems there's some comraderie (sp?) between us Ford and Chrysler guys (it's us against THEM)
I won a divisional points race in 2000 with my '27T roadster. Ford gave me a $200 check for winning with a Ford car. Because of that, I stuck a blue oval Ford sign on the front of the car in appreciation. Now they require you to have a Ford engine to go along with the car. It's a stretch to call that roadster a Ford anyway, but they payed and for that I am grateful. Chrysler doesn't give you squat for running a Chrysler body, but they do pay for the engine, regardless of what it's in. You don't get that with a Chevy (why would they pay, everybody runs one anyway).
By the way, my first race car was a '56 Chevy with a '63 Plymouth 426 Max Wedge engine & Torqueflite.
Ken B.