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kadams4458
11-03-2003, 03:11 AM
I just though I'd try to gather some information from you more sophisticated Mopar folks. :)

I have an old motorhome, and rather than continually work on the carb, I've been giving though to using fuel injection. Now, I'm fully prepared to tackle the electronic side of it, but I'm a little lost on the intake and throttle body side of things. :) I'd like to just go with throttle body injection in order to keep things simple.

I want to know if there is a throttle body out there that I could find in a boneyard that would bolt to the stock 2-barrel intake on my 1969 318 industrial. If anyone has any suggestions or has done this sort of conversion before, please let me know.

Devilbrad
11-09-2003, 10:36 AM
Find a late 80's, early 90's Dodge truck with a throttle body injected 318/360. That will get you your manifold and everything else you need for the swap. Or look into the Holley EFI kits.

Brad

ehostler
11-09-2003, 05:23 PM
Instead of using a TBI (no one has buch good to say about the Holley system), why not hold of until Summer and get the EB EFI kit?

Devilbrad
11-09-2003, 05:29 PM
Thats a good idea! I forgot all about the Edelbrock set up.

Brad

GaryS
11-09-2003, 05:38 PM
The slant six forums have had many good debates about aftermarket fuel injection using junk yard parts. Several people have converted to MPI and they address many of the generic problems in their posts.

Ausydad
11-09-2003, 05:40 PM
I wa thinking of saying just get the whole setup including heads from the 92+ magnum motor and improve compression and head flow at the same time. You would have to change pushrods as well, but that should be easy....

Devilbrad
11-09-2003, 05:44 PM
You need to change lifters also. AMC hydraulic lifters, Magnum pushrods and upper end. Then all the EFI harness, computer, etc etc. I would just go the easy route of the older TBI set up, dont forget the fuel pump for it, and the harness and computer will be much easier to install.

kadams4458
11-10-2003, 10:17 PM
Well, just so you all know, I'll be using an aftermarket fuel management solution. I've been following along with the development of the Megasquirt project for a while now, and have decided that it will work perfectly for the motorhome.

The head change idea may not be a bad one, to be honest. There's nothing wrong with the heads that it's using now, except that they don't have hardened seats and valves. It may be better to just replace them with updated units as opposed to continue using them. I'll probably need to swap the manifold, anyway, so why not?

I'm gonna go to the junkyard and check out some late 80's Dakotas that I saw the other day. Maybe one of them will have the manifold and TB that I need.

Anyone care to recommend any factory heads?

tommeide
12-03-2003, 07:41 PM
Hello kadams 4458:

I want to convert my 318 to fuel injection too.

have you gotten any further?

what kind of intake will u use?

kadams4458
12-04-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by tommeide
Hello kadams 4458:

I want to convert my 318 to fuel injection too.

have you gotten any further?

what kind of intake will u use?

Well, I guess the first thing to figure out is whether or not you're going to attempt to use some sort of factory computer setup. (Probably a real pain in the butt.) I've chosen to use a DIY fuel management system known as MegaSquirt. You can check the megaSquirt information out at http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html.

As for manifolds and TB's and such, I haven't found any yet. Rather, I should say that I haven't found any cheap enough yet. I'm determined to find them at one of the local Pull-It-Yourself junkyards around here, so I can get everything I need for under $50. More than likely, I'll just pull everything I need off of a late 80's Dakota.

If you'd like some more detailed info on anything specific pertaining to the conversion, you can ask. I've gather a lot of information on this since I first posted this topic.

tommeide
12-04-2003, 04:03 PM
Thanks.

I have plans of using the megasquirt too.

and find any manifolds from an 90's 318 or 360 on the wreck yard.

the problem for me, compared to you, is that i live in Norway, and not in the states....

I'm interestesd in all the info you can provide of the subject.

I really want to do this.

I also want to change camshaft.

kadams4458
12-04-2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by tommeide
Thanks.

I have plans of using the megasquirt too.

and find any manifolds from an 90's 318 or 360 on the wreck yard.

the problem for me, compared to you, is that i live in Norway, and not in the states....

I'm interestesd in all the info you can provide of the subject.

I really want to do this.

I also want to change camshaft.


Norway? Yeah, that could make things a little more difficult. I don't know how hard it is to find salvage parts over there. You might want to consider finding a stateside salvage yard willing to ship overseas, or just order up new parts from the nearest dealer.

The 90's manifolds will work, but beware of the Magnum variety. I believe, though I have not verified it yet, that in order to use a magnum intake, you'll have to use the heads as well.

Cams I don't think will represent much of a problem once you know what you're objective will be.

As far as the basics go, the conversion seems like it will be pretty simple. Everything Mopar bolts right up and then you add the appropriate GM sensors as required by the MegaSquirt. Getting it to start up and idle for the first time is going to be the hard part.

Go ahead and ask a specific question, and I'll supply you with whatever information I can.

Also, if you haven't signed up yet for the MegaSquirt Yahoo group, be sure to do it. There's lots of useful information there and just reading what everyone has to say will help to straighten a lot of things out.

tommeide
12-04-2003, 05:49 PM
thanks.

I have an friend on the moparchat who will buy the manifold for me and ship it over to norway. so thats the first thing to do in my case.

the second is: do I need new injectors? or can I use the ones in the used intake I'll buy

can I use the 90's intake or do I need to use the 87 modell intake? is i have unterstand, there is some differences.

kadams4458
12-04-2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by tommeide
thanks.

I have an friend on the moparchat who will buy the manifold for me and ship it over to norway. so thats the first thing to do in my case.

the second is: do I need new injectors? or can I use the ones in the used intake I'll buy

can I use the 90's intake or do I need to use the 87 modell intake? is i have unterstand, there is some differences.

If you want to use your existing heads, you can use a 90's intake manifold so long as it's not from a Magnum engine. I forget which year they introduced the Magnum, but I think it was '92 or '93. (Please don't shoot me if I'm wrong.)

There is another option which would allow you to re-use your original manifold if you are going to use throttle body injection. I haven't checked to see if it's cost prohibitive, but you could simply have an adapter plate built that would go between the new throttle body and the old intake. They make them to bolt various carbs on to different manifolds already, so maybe there's even one out there that will work. If not, it may become necessary to have one made.

As far as injectors go, I would imagine if you're using the intake from a FI 318 to bolt on to a previously carbed 318, you'd be fine. To double check this, you'll need to do some calculation regarding injector size. This is something that you definitely don't want to guess at.

There is an excellent article about selecting injectors on the TurboSaturns.net website. You can access the article by going to http://www.turbosaturns.net/articles/understanding_horsepower.html. I know it's not a Mopar site, but hey, it's good info. if you gather your current engine specs together, you can substitute them in place of the Saturn numbers and derive a great deal of useful information from that article.

tommeide
12-04-2003, 08:45 PM
thanks again.

I'll try to get it done in the spring. since i live in norway, its wery cold here in the winter......brr......

anyway, when it comes to injectors size, I understand this is kind of delicous mathematics to get it correct, i'll try your tool on the other site, but if I just copy the size of the original mopar injectors, I would'n be too far away then? I guess mopar had it right when they sold the original fuel injected cars? whats your opinion?

and when it comes to trottle body, I have thought of just drilling holes and insert the injectors in the right position, of my old carb intake(not known this moment of course) and get that thing on the top, which is no more thatn an air opening and closeing door if i'm right?

BUT!; my hope is to get an original mopar intake and do it more or less closely to the "Real thing" from mopar.

when will you convert your car, and what type of intake will you use?

kadams4458
12-04-2003, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by tommeide
thanks again.

I'll try to get it done in the spring. since i live in norway, its wery cold here in the winter......brr......

anyway, when it comes to injectors size, I understand this is kind of delicous mathematics to get it correct, i'll try your tool on the other site, but if I just copy the size of the original mopar injectors, I would'n be too far away then? I guess mopar had it right when they sold the original fuel injected cars? whats your opinion?

and when it comes to trottle body, I have thought of just drilling holes and insert the injectors in the right position, of my old carb intake(not known this moment of course) and get that thing on the top, which is no more thatn an air opening and closeing door if i'm right?

BUT!; my hope is to get an original mopar intake and do it more or less closely to the "Real thing" from mopar.

when will you convert your car, and what type of intake will you use?

If you use the same injectors, you'll probably be pretty close if not right on in respect to the proper injectors. However, there can be differences between engines, even of the same displacement. in other words, a converted 318 may require a completely different injector than the 318 that left the factory with fuel injection. they all have different fuel requirements, so it is extremely important to run calculations. It's very possible that you'll luck out and be able to use the factory injectors that will be in your new manifold or throttle body.

As for mounting injectors in a carb... Wow, that's just too far out there for me. Granted, I'm sure I could spend six months learning all of the required engineering to rig up something like that and have it run, but it isn't worth the effort. While it's true that many of the first throttle body injection units were essentially modifed carbs, there are enough significant differences to make such an adaptation by an individual completely unworthy of attempt.

I'm not certain yet whether I will go with throttle body injection or port injection. I have yet to locate the parts to complete either version, and which one I use may well depend on which setup I stumble across first at the salvage yard. Either way, injection will certainly do a lot to improve the drivability, power, and gas mileage of my motorhome!

I can say that I probably need to either alter or replace my heads since they were originally designed for use with leaded fuel. That being the case, I would prefer to yank the entire top end off of a later model vehicle, possibly a Magnum, if I could make it work. I'm still trying to determine the feasability.

I'm still doing research on the magnum alternative, but I suspect that it will be cost prohibitive since the parts tend to sell for significantly more than the older stuff does.

68fury
12-05-2003, 05:26 AM
Why not just pull the motor from a EFI vehicle and transplant the whole lump?

That way you know what results you're going to get.

Its kinda not the point of converting it yourself, I know.

I am interested in EFI for my daily ride '86 5th Avenue for better drivability and mileage (I am in the UK and our gas prices are ridiculous) and I also fancy the 4 speed auto transmission too.

A conversion would be easier as our wrecking yards arn't exactly full of crashed late model Dodge trucks... Small parts I can get shipped.

I had assumed just to use the computer off the donor vehicle would be easiest. I looked at the Megasquirt site but I'm no electronics engineer so it scares me off that route a bit.

tommeide
12-05-2003, 06:36 AM
Hello 68 fury.

well, I see you are in england, and there is possibly less american cars than in Norway I guess.

but that leaves us in the same problem. no cars in the wrecking yards of interest.

and ridiculous high prices on gasoline........


wel, does anyone know how much improvement in gas mileage we can expect?

Bill55AZ
12-05-2003, 05:51 PM
Overdrive tranny is meant for 3.55 or larger number rear axle ratio, in OD it is effectively a 2.4. So unless you change your axle ratio, the OD is not a good idea. You would need to cut some on your tranny hump/tunnel as well, and shorten the driveshaft.
I have a 92 Dakota, 5.2L engine, OD auto, 3.55, and it gets 16MPG in town, 21 on the hiway. I also have a 79 Volare, 5.2L engine, non-OD tranny, 2.4 rear axle, with TQ 4V carb, and it gets the same MPG in town, have never taken it on a trip to see what it does there. I just changed the 2.4 to 2.9 and in town MPG doesn't seem to have suffered any. Probably because I get up to speed quicker and the engine isn't working as hard, and is in a better, more efficient RPM range.
Using Magnum heads on a 318 should improve performance without costing you in gas mileage. Be prepared for intake manifold problems, though. SInce your 69 318 is pre-smog heads, your existing exhaust manifolds should fit, but the dakota exhaust manifolds, or 92-98 jeep grand cherokee V8 exhaust manifolds would be better. The early years, 92-94 for both dakota and grand cherokee had the larger exhaust manifolds and Y pipes. If your Y pipe dumps to the pipe on the American driver's side, or your passenger side, you would need the Y pipe from a Magnum equipped van.

nhdriver
12-05-2003, 06:46 PM
If you can use one, I have a Manifold & Throttle body from a 90's magnum 318 that I will let go cheap.e-mail me at: chrvir@metrocast.net

Bill55AZ
12-05-2003, 08:03 PM
nhdriver, if it is a Magnum, it has the beer barrel intake and 8 injectors, and it won't bolt up to the older heads. The Magnum started in 92, prior to that it was the A engine with 2 throttle body injectors.
The intake manifold bolts on the Magnum go straight down, the previous engines are at an angle.

nhdriver
12-07-2003, 12:09 AM
Yeah it is the "beer barrel" type, you would need the magnum heads to use it.

kadams4458
12-07-2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by Bill55AZ
Using Magnum heads on a 318 should improve performance without costing you in gas mileage. Be prepared for intake manifold problems, though. SInce your 69 318 is pre-smog heads, your existing exhaust manifolds should fit, but the dakota exhaust manifolds, or 92-98 jeep grand cherokee V8 exhaust manifolds would be better. The early years, 92-94 for both dakota and grand cherokee had the larger exhaust manifolds and Y pipes. If your Y pipe dumps to the pipe on the American driver's side, or your passenger side, you would need the Y pipe from a Magnum equipped van. [/B]

Oh, I was wondering if the exhaust would bolt up to a Magnum head a while back, but I completely forgot to check!

I guess I won't have to worry about the exhaust if I choose to use Magnum heads since I already have headers. Unless, for some reason, the Magnum heads won't like the headers. Hmm. This might be easier than I ever thought it could be.

dwc43
12-07-2003, 08:26 PM
Tommie, I finally got on here to help you out with your problem.
Here's some help for you and Kadam.

The 80's tbi and intake and sensors will work fine, but they are not as good as the '92 and up magnum tune port injection. The magnum intake will fit the stock older heads with a slight mod to the bolt holes. There is a kit for this, but all you really need is a drill press to redrill the holes at an angle instead of straight down. It's real easy mod to do. The 360 x,j, and u heads with 2.02 valves will flow the best for your set up. Both magnum and la exhaust manifolds and headers will swap with out a problem. Best flowing exhaust manifolds will be the '70-'73 340 and the '92 up 360 magnum R/T manifolds.

Right now, I'll help tommie out with his and when I do mine latter I will do a 360 with x or j heads, cam, headers, aluminum air gap that has nitrous bosses that I will put injectors into and top it off with a 360 R/T throttle body.

You should be able to use all stock mopar sensors too. And dont use old injectors. Buy new ones, cause there is no way to clean them and most likely all he old ones are gummed up from setting in a scrap yard for some time.Not worth the hassel of trying to find out why it wont run right and you think it's a mega squirt problem when it's a stuck or leaking injector. :D

tommeide
12-07-2003, 08:39 PM
Great dwc43!

Your my man dwc43!

ok,. then I'll go for the Magnum intake then.

thats what I was hoping for anyway would work......

I see I might be better of with changing my heads also, but i'm afraid I cant afford it right now.

is there an estimate of how much those heads cost?

how about injectors? any price range?

dwc43
12-07-2003, 08:54 PM
Magnum R/T heads are 475each new at my dealer,but are not worth it. You can make more power for less money with 360 2.02 valved X, J , or U heads. If you conver to magnums you need amc lifters, pushrods and R/T heads and roker gear. With x,j,or u's you only need to rework the head and mod hte magnum intake bolt holes and your done for a lot less and make more power too. As for injectors around 60 to 80 for tbi, but more for tuned port type.

Pluse guys, foget the in the tank fuel pump. I can get you a nice frame mounted job that will work rather nicley without going through the problems of trying to mod your fuel tank. That one guy that tommie showed me a web site for was asking for a fire with that home made jug he mounted that pump in inhis engine bay. :D

kadams4458
12-07-2003, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by dwc43
Magnum R/T heads are 475each new at my dealer,but are not worth it. You can make more power for less money with 360 2.02 valved X, J , or U heads. If you conver to magnums you need amc lifters, pushrods and R/T heads and roker gear. With x,j,oru's you only need to rework the head and mod hte magnum intake bolt holes and your done for a lot less and make more power too. As for injectors around 60 to 80 for tbi, but more for tuned port type.

Pluse guys, foget the in the tank fuel pump. I can get you a nice frame mounted job that will work rather nicley without going through the problems of trying to mod your fuel tank. That one guy that tommie showed me a web site for was asking for a fire with that home made jug he mounted that pump in inhis engine bay. :D

I'd never dream of an in-tank pump. I hear that there are a couple of Ford trucks out there that used a frame mounted pump, and from what I can tell, a couple of them will do nicely for my RV.

dwc43
12-07-2003, 09:20 PM
Never seen a ferd frame mounted fuel pump. At least no in the '80's when I worked on them in our dealer. Now unless they put them on in the '90s after I left then there is no such animal. :D

tommeide
12-07-2003, 09:23 PM
te magnum heads goes out for my part.

but I see that installing 360 Heads would do my engine wery good.

is it possible to get in a yard? anyone knows price on those?

dwc43
12-07-2003, 09:31 PM
Stock 360's, probably got a set laying around I'll sell you worht the money. Might even grind on them a little if you ask nice. :D :D

tommeide
12-07-2003, 09:37 PM
He,he,he you're a nice guy. :)


I see after talking with you for a while that 318 heads are one of the problems on my car.

so far I'll go for injection, camshaft and hopefully 360 heads.

headers will be, but I'll take that later on. money is an issue.

when all thats done, I'll have a nice little package....

dwc43
12-07-2003, 09:40 PM
I can send you headers now for about 130 or so a set. I can even price you a hole sysem with x pipe from my shop if you like. I would do this first, cause it's the easiest bolt on that makes a lot of power adn mpg if you keep your foot out of it. And the 318 needs all hte exhaust help it can get. :D

tommeide
12-07-2003, 09:42 PM
is those 360 heads from an 2 barrel carb engine or an 4 barrel?

and what year model are they? its differences there too

i see its different valve lift values

want to try it in dyno program you see.....

dwc43
12-07-2003, 09:48 PM
Either way you want them.:D

Bill55AZ
12-07-2003, 09:56 PM
360 heads will be the same whether 2 or 4 BBL.
Injectors are almost $50 EACH new.
Drilling the beer barrel intake to accept angled bolts may work, but bear in mind that now the heads of the bolts will not have a flat surface to bear against, unless you can make some angle adapter washers or machine the surface in some way.
Same problem exists trying to use LA intakes on magnum heads.
Adding headers, or anything else you do to improve flow, will require re-jetting your carb. Improving flow while keeping your small jets may cause a too-lean condition.
I once put a 360-2 intake and carb on a 74 318 Dart, and along with recurving the mechanical advance, and adding dual exhaust using 340 exhaut manifolds and pipes, it ran better, and started much better in cold weather compared to the 2BBL Carter they were using at the time. It got 20MPG hiway mileage with 2.76 gears.

dwc43
12-07-2003, 10:05 PM
Moding the beer barrel intake to angle bolts will leave a flat surface for the bolts to set on. There is a fixture for doing this too, but it really is not needed if you have a drill press. If you go the other route and drill an LA manifold for magnum heads then it will need a spacer which is quite easy to make. A 360 2 bbl intake want make much difference since the limiting factor is the tiny cfm of the 2 bbl itself. Jet changes for tunning are the norm, but these guys are going injected and will tune it with the simple turn of a screw driver to a switch on hte ecu box, so that's not an issue either. :D

68fury
12-10-2003, 06:39 AM
I'm still tempted to think the 360 Magnum TPI motor complete is easier... probably with better results as it has extra cubes on the 318.

Does the Magnum motor use the same mounts etc. as the A engine? IE can I just bolt out and bolt in? (wiring and plumbing being another case...)

Bill55AZ
12-10-2003, 07:27 AM
http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/ar40090.htm

follow that link to some good info.
Looking at my Dakota with the beer barrel intake, I think it would be very hard to mount it on an LA engine. There is no room between the vertical walls to "angle in" the mounting bolts.

dwc43
12-10-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by 68fury
I'm still tempted to think the 360 Magnum TPI motor complete is easier... probably with better results as it has extra cubes on the 318.

Does the Magnum motor use the same mounts etc. as the A engine? IE can I just bolt out and bolt in? (wiring and plumbing being another case...)

Yes, they use the same mounts. Thinking of swapping in a complete engine and using the mega squirt controller, huh ?? Probably the easiest thing to do. :D

68fury
12-11-2003, 05:20 AM
I wasn't! Am now... :)

I still haven't sorted my Fury's brakes out yet so this is going to have to wait until thats all paid for. But I can't resist these hypothetical builds...

Why would I use the Megasquirt and not the stock ECU off the truck which donated the motor?

Bill55AZ
12-11-2003, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by dwc43
Yes, they use the same mounts. Thinking of swapping in a complete engine and using the mega squirt controller, huh ?? Probably the easiest thing to do. :D

I think Later magnums have different mounts, so be careful which one you buy.
Read the link I posted earlier. It is one that has enough info that it deserves a download.

dwc43
12-11-2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by 68fury
I wasn't! Am now... :)

I still haven't sorted my Fury's brakes out yet so this is going to have to wait until thats all paid for. But I can't resist these hypothetical builds...

Why would I use the Megasquirt and not the stock ECU off the truck which donated the motor?

THe mega squirts a simple hook up and using the truck wiring and ecu will be a night mare to sort out, but it can be done. As for hte brakes, if you have the right spindles I have a front and rear kit that might work noce for you. THe fronts run 478 and the rear disc runs 450. That will get that heavy car hauled under in a hurry. E mail mee if you want more help or parts on your brakes. ******************** :D