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Cudadrag
07-27-2006, 03:16 PM
As some of you know I'm in the mists of building a VERY unique and custom Cuda. The goal is to build the quickest (limited) streetable pump gas only car I can. As I have posted the car and power plant (The new engine has arrived post) is already in hand. Now I'm investigating transmission options.

So far I have heard everything from a glide to a clutchless lenco/liberty. I personally do not favor an automatic. I know the pros of an auto and have had very good success with the 727 TF with my Duster. But the Cuda has a heavy spring assisted clutch pedal installed and ready. I have asked Liberty if their new Doug Nash style 4+1 LSC5000 5 speed with some extreme gearing matched with a Ram or Clutch Pro multidisk clutch could be the ultimate solution. (Besides it’s a muscle era car. It should be manual.)

I am asking for any insight (fact or theoretical) about a transmission solution. Money of course is always a factor but please don't let it get in the way of extreme thinking. As well as auto vs. manual. All possible options and thoughts are welcomed.

Jamze Duncan
07-27-2006, 04:44 PM
Cuda, Since That Thing Ought To Make A Lot Of Torque With A Huffer On It, And I Suspect Either A Liberty Or Jerico Trans Will Likely Experience Constant Breakage (assuming You Get It Locked Up Going Down Track). Perhaps A Lenco Or A Jeffco Trans Would Work Out For You. And Yes, You Can Drive A Lenco On The Street, If The Mileage Is Kept Somewhat Limited (certainly No 2,000 Mile Vacation Trips).

Cudadrag
07-27-2006, 04:55 PM
Jamze, So you are talking totally clutchless? (Not sure if Lenco makes anything else)

Slingshot383
07-27-2006, 10:11 PM
Lenco's aren't clutchless. You usually have a multi-disc clutch in front of it, and each gearpack is nothing more than a planetary set with clutches in it.

moeflo
07-28-2006, 08:53 AM
Another vote for Lenco. They have a smoother "hit" on gear changes, and are very strong. Also all the ratios you can dream up. 2 through 5 speeds.Just a personal preference, I'd look at using a converter instead of a clutch. (Lencodrive, or Bruno) Get 23T's attention, He's run 'em.

Cudadrag
07-28-2006, 12:16 PM
I have thought about a converter and am guessing this is what the pro stock boys use with some sort of line lock 2 or 3 -step system for launching. I do know the bulk of the pro stockers run the clutchless Liberty trans. By Rule a Pro Stocker has to use a manual 5 speed. Using a converter in my opinion is really stretching the no auto rule, but hey why not the best of both worlds. So far this type of setup sounds the most promising and practical. (Not inexpensive though!)

If Lenco's race trans are NOT clutchless and one uses a converter how the hell does it shift? And didn't Lenco invent the clutchless trans?

My lack of experience in these upper class builds is starting to show! I have also noticed trying to make and run a 2 car show I don't do much racing.

23T-Wedge
07-28-2006, 01:52 PM
Cuda,

The original Lenco was/is a 2-speed unit that bolted to a dragster style clutch can. It uses a planetary style gearset with a sun-gears and clutch packs similar to most any automatic. It is shifted from low to high by means of a lever actuated (or air-pod actuated) plunger that engages the tranny clutch pack. A 3-speed is simply two 2-speeds bolted together end to end, (4-speed is 3 units, 5-speed is 4 units) Like Moe stated, because of the slight slippage of the clutch packs, the hit on the shift is much smoother than a mechanically geared transmission, and lends itself to a high hp combo much better. They are extremely strong units and can readily absorb 2500-3000hp without failure. The downside is there is a fair amount of friction in each unit, which is why you don't see them in prostock anymore. The Liberty's, Jerrico's, or whatever they are running now are hard-gear mechanical gearsets and don't rob near as much HP as the Lenco and seem to live at the power levels that Pro Stock is at which I think is around 1350. Was trying to determine in your last post but just to clarify, Pro Stocks are definitely running a real pedal clutch and not a convertor.

On the other hand, Lencodrive is a true automatic and is a different tranny than the original Lenco race tranny, and can basically be described as Powerglide built for a Sherman tank. Similar in size to a glide, but can be bought with any bellhousing config, much like the JW Ultrabell setup. It utilises the same internals as the race Lenco and will contain the same amount of HP. It comes as a 2-speed with either 1.56 or 1.73 1st gear, but you can bolt on a race 2-speed behind it to make a 3-speed in the same way as the original 3-4-5 speed setups. It's all just a matter of how much you want to spend, but you'll definitely get what you pay for as they are pretty bulletproof pieces. The only downside that I can think of is the L'drive units seem to build up heat pretty quickly, and that may be a problem if you do much street driving, not that they don't seem to be able to handle the heat, and they do have provisions for cooler lines. We just always put a squirrel-cage fan under tranny between rounds and never had any problems, but that may not be practical on the street...........:D

Don't have any personal experince with the Bruno/Convertor setup but know they are bulletproof also. Main difference is, it is not a transmission in itself, but you have the flexibility to bolt a Lenco, Liberty, etc. to the unit and run whatever type with a torque convertor and transbrake. Hope this has been of some help.

23T-Wedge
07-28-2006, 01:57 PM
Also, if it's a consideration, the transbrake in the Lenco-drive is rock solid.

Cudadrag
07-28-2006, 03:23 PM
23T-Wedge your post is ALOT of help.. It’s nice to get other's opinions before hearing the sales folks. I was envisioning a Pro Stock style setup but maybe not the most realist for this build. If the Pro Stocks do use a pedal and clutch pack how do they launch? I was under the impression they use a 4-wheel line lock that holds the car, which would suggest a converter.

Its tough to talk with any Pro Stockers cause they are the most secretive bunch I have ever met. The light you have shined is VERY appreciated.

Cudadrag
07-30-2006, 03:25 PM
If the Pro Stocks do use a pedal and clutch pack how do they launch? I was under the impression they use a 4-wheel line lock that holds the car, which would suggest a converter.

Someday I may know what the hell I'm asking or talking about. After watching the PS boys qualifing efforts I saw that they do indeed use the clutch foot pedel to launch the car. The Rule book confirms that no devices can assist them in engaging the clutchdisks. In fact all discs must engage simutaniously. Only front wheel line locks can be used so no 2 or 3 step system can be present. No throttle controller can be used to assist in launch. (so no gismos)

Basically all you get is your foot, a rev limiter and front wheel line lock to hold you from moving due to any clutch disc lashing. This is actually more primative then my Pro Street car. And this is not alot diffrent then the good old days of pedel only.

I REALLY like this NHRA class. No wonder its so competative. I know this is a little off subject of transmissions, but if a Pro Stock type setup is the goal then things got easier. As of now Liberty's Pro Stock equalizer or extreme transmission is the leading condender. Very expensive piece, but I don't see the Cuda build going higher in power then the current Pro Stockers. This car will be scary enough at 1000 horse. If one is looking to go higher then lets say 1500 horse then I agree the Lenco may be the choice.

Please feel free to add or disagree. As I stated above I'm not right all the time. And now I'm venturing into uncharted waters with my own drag race experiences.

23T-Wedge
07-30-2006, 06:08 PM
Cuda,

Believe me, I'm no expert, just trying to look at commom sense approach to your combination. Moe or Jamze could give you close real world torque and HP figures, but the reason you see 5-speeds in Prostock is the engines have such narrow torque bands that it takes the close ratio gears to keep the engine at its maximum pulling torque all the way through the quarter. A fair analogy would be a 2-stroke 125cc dirt bike with a 5 or 6 speed. They don't really pull unless you get it up "on the pipe" in motocross terms. That's why hitting the shift points is so extrememly critical for a perfect pass, missing by 500rpm could be the difference in qualifying or not. Not knowing what the torque curve of your combo is going to be, but guessing that because of the blower, that it's going to be a lot wider, the idea of a close ratio 5-speed doesn't make as much sense to me personally as your shift points are probably going to be in the middle of your torque range to start with and your rpm drop won't be enough to take advantage of the full range of torque that this monster should be putting out. While your statement about your setup not making any more total HP than a prostock motor may be true, if you were to put a 2-speed glide behind either one with identical weight cars, your blown 588 would/should give a prostock motor all it could handle as the 500 inchers torque range would be totally in left field with only 2 gears. Hope this makes some kind of sense, because I sometimes have trouble conveying my thoughts when I start typing them out as my brain runs much faster than my fingers. I know you've mentioned in the past, but it I could stand a refresher on what your exact goals are with the car,(street-strip, strip only,etc.target ET's, 10.5 class?). Whatever, it's gonna be an awesome beast........:D

Jamze Duncan
07-30-2006, 06:13 PM
[QUOTE=Cudadrag]
I know this is a little off subject of transmissions, but if a Pro Stock type setup is the goal then things got easier. As of now Liberty's Pro Stock equalizer or extreme transmission is the leading condender. Very expensive piece, but I don't see the Cuda build going higher in power then the current Pro Stockers.


Cuda, evidently you must REALLY like working on busted transmissions. Do the rules say you can't use a Lenco? Comparing your car & engine to a NHRA Pro Stock, there's a big difference in torque & car weight isn't there? Think that 'gear to gear' trans won't notice that small difference?
Too bad I didn't know you'd be looking for a clutchless tranny because last month I sold a 4-speed clutchless Jerico with a Long vertical gate shifter, for $1,000

Seriously, look inside a Pro Stock's trailer & you'll likely see spare trannys & parts.. They don't haul all that around for 'no reason'.

moeflo
07-30-2006, 06:47 PM
Agree with 23 and Jamze. Forget any comparison with a P/S motor. Yours, nor any other engine is similar. If you were to run an torque converter behind a P/S car, it would need to stall at around 8K or higher.

skankweirdall
07-30-2006, 06:56 PM
As far as I know when you upshift a Lenco you are actually releasing a set of clutch discs. So instead of engaging a set of discs and a planetary set you are actually taking them out of the power flow. Putting them in the power flow would cause clutch slippage and a rate of acceleration to the planetary set that would invite disaster.

Cudadrag
08-01-2006, 11:09 AM
Well I guess it does come down to "What is the car's goal?" The goal is 1000 horse and comparable torque in a 3000 lbs (or less) e-body drag car that is also limited street worthy. I say limited because the car will not have heater, wipers, or any other stock street components. Under the rules of the Pump Gas challenge the car needs lights, signals and horn. All this and must run with 93/94 octane fuel. Nitrous is an option but not one I wish to build. Besides This 4 valve monster would need quite a shot just to feel it. Sub 9 second is the goal (and yes 8.999999 counts)

So let see what we have to work with. The Cuda is heavily modified but does have all lights and lenses. The car was originally built for Pro Stock in the mid 70s. (Super Stock SS/AM by today's standard) While a mid 70s Pro Stocker it ran 9s with a 426 hemi and crashbox hemi-4 speed. The hemi was elephant eared in and set back about 6-8 inches to a cut and deepened firewall. Front end is still fully framed with roll gage extending to the shock towers. The car still has its Dana 5.38:1 gears with 70s style ladders. I am updating the rear with axles and spool by strange but the gears and ladder bars stay. I’m not sure of final rear gear but figured it’s a good place to start. The bars are a little heavy by today’s standard but in good shape.

The plan is to motor plate the DOHC engine in similar to where the hemi sat. How far back will be determined by how deep the bellhousing is and how long the transmission measures as I plan to use the car's transmission crossmember and torsion bars. (Moving the shocks out of its towers and connecting to top frame rail with coil overs could remove Torsion bars.)

Why pump gas? As I began envisioning a setup for this car it quickly came apparent that a limit needed to be set. Pump gas quickly eliminates Jon Kasse mountain motor type ideas as well as high boost blower applications that would not only kill my wallet but the car and probably me. “Pump gas only” is an interesting limitation that opens up a lot of different approaches. Thus the Schubeck 588 DOHC engine, which was already build for pump gas marine use.

I got to know Joe Schubeck over the past couple years and got his curiosity cooking. (By the way being a dragster guy Joe votes for 2 speed glide.) I tried to make a purchase for his new 904-ci inch monster but just couldn't afford it. A year later Joe called me and said he has this short deck version of his 904 that he used in dyno demos to the boat racers. This engine had smaller centerlines and bore then the 904. Shorter deck and stroke but used the same head configuration and his only motor using titanium valves. This motor had about 15 dyno pulls on it each one within 5-horse power of the others. 750 horse at 5200 rpms naturally aspirated.

What do you do with a pump gas only drag car? Well like any drag car that meets NHRA safety regulations E.T. Brackets can be run as well as Pump Gas Only heads up racing. The biggest of these is Hot Rod magazines pump gas challenge. Hot Rod is looking for unique and fast builds of pump gas only cars. Thus my goal was set. Win a Pump Gas challenge (or at least place well)

Why a Blower? Even if I was able to get 90%+ of the 750 horse N/A motor to the pavement this would not be enough for some of the wild builds that some are using. (Besides the 750 horses were on 87 octanes. I have room to grow.) Currently the winning times are in the mid 8 second ranges. And most of the fastest are using NOS with some sort of water injections to douse the detonation of their higher then 10.5:1 compression setups. My thoughts are with the blower I can steadily increase boost till finding the edge of the detonation envelope. My advantage of course is the DOHC motor, which produces more power per psi. of combustion chamber pressure. (Which is ultimately the root cause of low octane detonation.) The all aluminum titanium valve design also helps in dissipating left over heat, which is the second cause. The motor’s pistons are heavily cut for valve clearance. This valve clearance serves multiple purposes. First and foremost it lowers compression. At zero deck with flat pistons just the sheer motor size and combustion chamber configuration would leave a compression ratio well above 12.0:1. A dished piston or a piston cut for valve clearance is needed to increase combustion area thus lowering compression. This clearance also helps channel most of the compressed gas away from the quench edges towards the center, which also helps on detonation as well as a more efficent burn. And of course if a timing belt was ever to break collision between the valves and piston is highly unlikely.

Jesus I just wrote a short story. But I was hoping to convey my idea for this Cuda build. After reviewing the N/A dyno results 23T you are right. My numbers are a lot different then a Pro Stock motor. The 588 is more like a stock big block on steroids. (Curve similar just elevated proportionally.) I also believe that adding a low to mid boost supercharger would narrow the band but not that much. Perhaps a 4 or even 3 speed type transmission would be warranted. I have attached the dyno results as well as a pic of the piston top. Please keep thinking out loud. The Cuda is the first, full-bodied car, attempt of installing a Schubeck large bore DOHC engine. So there are no experts. ALL IDEAS WELCOMED! And you guys ROCK! I really hope to meet you all some day. At a drag strip of c

23T-Wedge
08-01-2006, 02:52 PM
Cuda,

Thanks for taking the time, that's a lot to digest but a big help. A couple of quick questions and observations, what is the static compression? A pump gas deal with a mild blower boost setup should probably be in the 8, maybe 8.5 to 1 range max, probably leaning toward less compression. A full comp blown-gas setup would be in the 9.5 range but that would be with 120+octane
race gas, so anything to take some compression out should be a step in the right direction. The unknown variable, for me anyway is how the 4-valve combustion chamber tolerates low octane. It does seem like it would be suited for this type of usage. One thing I do remember about the 4-valve McGee head in top fuel several years ago was with exhaust seats being too close and not getting enough heat transfer to keep that area of the head from melting the alloy and blowing out. That may not be an issue on a mild gas setup, and the McGee and Shuebeck heads may have totally different dimensions in valve to valve placement. Just something to think about.

After further thought on the tranny, a well-built aftermarket Powerglide could probably handle this combination with a fair amount of durabilty. I still think the Lencodrive would be far and away a much stronger unit, but might be a little bit of overkill for what you're doing and isn't quite as user-friendly as the PG, primarily the reverser is a pain to get back and forth with the transbrake deal, something that the clutch-Lenco guys don't have to worry about.

You did make one statement that I'm not sure is true, about adding the low to mid-boost supercharger that you felt that it would make your power band narrower. I'm pretty sure that any positive boost at all is going to make that band even wider, at least that's always been my experience with blown alky setups. Be interested in your thoughts on that.

Cudadrag
08-01-2006, 05:21 PM
23T. Compression is 10.25:1 and is a little high for a typical blower setup. Joe has had a PSI blower on this block and ran a dyno number. (Alcohol) He is trying to find the sheet but believes it was in the 1800 horse range. (As you can imagine he has lots of blocks and different setups.) I will also see with what pistons and compression was used. As you can probably tell I don't have a lot of supercharging experience but I do have some. I agree with you 23T on the band increase. I guess my mind was thinking of the band moving forward thus "relative" shrinking in lower to mid r's as boost increases. Sorry the dyno is not charted. I suppose I could chart the results and print a graph. (I hope my MS Excel learning is still intact.)

I talked with Joe Schubeck on a blower setup for pump gas. He said he has setup some for the boat folks using the same 10.25:1 pistons. This was with smaller Eaton roots type superchargers but did not seem concerned. The 4-valve heads are far more adjustable then 2 valves, but I don't see how you can lower static compression. He also said that some do run lower boosts out their blowers for higher compression engines. The primary disadvantage of this is the under utilization of the charger.

Everyone I know and have talked with including myself is concerned with the compression using a supercharger except for Joe. I'm trying to think what does he know that I don't. (Besides the 40+ years of engine building experience!) Perhaps the 4 valve chamber has inherently lower pressure then 2 valve motor thus higher compression is not only accommodated but recommended. But this is the next issue I will be discussing with him.

Wow it’s easy to get off track. I still favor the clutchless type tranny. And if there is one thing I am disagreeing with is the durability. Some of the extreme gear transmissions are rated to 3000 horses. I read an article where Warren Johnson was forced to switch from his own G-Force to a Liberty because of breakage. I know some of the Pro Mods run their 4 speed clutchless and they do make a 3 speed. I guess what I am trying to do is not use an automatic. I have never trusted them. A friend of mine lost half his foot to an auto explosion. Now granted it was a turbo something in a Chevy and not the glides or Lenco we have been discussing but man I have seen some bad recent photos. And I'm also not saying that a clutch hooked manual is full proof. Hell, I'm not ruling out finding an old hemi-4 ditch the syncos and crashbox the thing and run it the way I used too. I know the autos shift faster but they also cut into HP. As I mentioned, when I asked Mr. Schubeck about transmissions he said glide all the way and get over my 4-speed obsession.

OHD
08-02-2006, 08:50 PM
I looked at Jericos, Libertys, Dong Nash, Lenco, and Gforce. GForce was the one that was the strongest, parts available 99% of the time and much less than a Lenco street trans.

G force is a far superior trans to just about anyother pro trans avalable. The ratios are unlimited and their service is great. Plus their Long shifters are the most bullet proof on the face of the earth.

Gforce GF5R 5 speed trans long Pistol Grip shifter 1500 HP, clutch assisted or clutchless, good to about 1500HP 1100 ft lbs torque. (I am pushing these limits in a 1966 Ply Bel II)


Gforce G2000 5 speed clutchless only 2000-2500HP

You will have a very hard time driving a clutchless trans on the street, they are built to pop out of gear when you momentairly let off power.

GForce will sell you a Lakewood modified for its use or you can do it yourself for about 25 bucks.

I cut out the entire tunnel, trans hump, and 99 percent of the belhousing hump and built from there. It looks like a factory installation now.

OHD
08-02-2006, 08:55 PM
If you are going to run a blower on the street run 8 or less to one compression, it is much easier to change pullies and up the boost than change the compression ratio.

Most run 10 percent underdrive on the street and there is plenty of room to increase boost, just watch the detonation.

Cudadrag
08-03-2006, 04:26 PM
Hey OHD, Thanks for the input. I was surprised you recommend G-Force. Most of the Pro Stockers use Libertys. But As I mentioned I don't have experience with my own setups up over 1000 horse so I am ALL EARS.

Your Blower comments are very consistent to what I believe to be the best practice. As 23T said the unknown is the 4 valve motor. Which I too believe. I will be really leaning on Joe (The engine design and builder) about this issue, and what is the best way to lower compression for a blower setup. Modifing the existing pistons or replacement. I am not going to touch the combustion chambers. I have a couple of machinist friends that are very good with steel heads, but are probably not qualified for this aluminum beast.

Your Plymouth sounds simular to mine. My entire console and "hump" is gone and will be rebuilt custom. I have another friend who owns a small sheetmetal shop and we are discussing "Console" options. Including the possiblty of entire titanium console sheild as added protection against explosions. The problem of titanium is not the material cost but the machining cost. Its tough to work with.

I will be posting what I learn. And hopefully some more and better quality pics. (If I can get off my ass and get to the Photomat) Someday I will have to buy a "real" digital camera.

OHD
08-06-2006, 04:15 PM
http://www.g-forcetransmissions.com

Look at these guys offerings, we chose one for our little 580 inch Bel II Hemi car. Bullet proof, everything you could ever imagine, priced right.

Their shifters are the best in the world, period.....

You want to see what it looks like we are doing the final fab, fitting, and tweaking on the tunnel, hump, mounts, bel, z bar setup now. Just need to know how to post pictures here.

Cudadrag
08-06-2006, 11:55 PM
You want to see what it looks like we are doing the final fab, fitting, and tweaking on the tunnel, hump, mounts, bel, z bar setup now. Just need to know how to post pictures here.

I would be very interested in pics of your project (a small 580?) I have, and have owned A,B,C,E and M body Mopars and am very sure your B body has more in common with my E-body then my Duster and its A-body. If I remember right from some of your past posts of your Bel II hemi car your engine size and build spec is similar to my project thus you REALLY have my attention. I like the G-Force line and their prices are more favorable then some of the other high perf transmissions (over 1000 horse the list starts getting pretty short.) I speak of Liberty because I have been in contact with them over the last year on the possibility of a hybrid transmission (A locking clutchless) or if they could assemble a transmission where 1st and 3rd gears are standard syncroed while 2nd 4th and 5th are clutchless (where 5th gear shifter locks by rule) With this 3 of your 4 shifts at the strip are clutchless while only 3rd gear needs a clutch assist. This would then enable you to putt on the street using 1st, 3rd and 5th. I know I can't be the only one who has asked for this setup and Liberty did seem a little intrigued by the idea but as of today there is no such animal.

Please feel free to attach pics to my e-mail ( fire918@yahoo.com ) if posting is difficult. Attaching a pic to a MoparChat forum post works fine if the pic is small enough (I believe its 130k or less.) Most are larger due to resolution. I don't know how to post a pic inside a forum's text field like some do.

Would love to see that car of yours. And how you approached the whole transmission and it's mounting.

Kevin Garceau
08-07-2006, 09:09 AM
Last I knew, and its been a while. Hence why I havent piped up yet. But the lenco did not have a cooling circuit in it. So wouldnt be very good for much time at all.

At least that was the reason I got when I asked a 6 second street car why he didnt run one. Watched him run in the 6s in early 90s then drive it to dinner that night.... was awesome.

OHD
08-07-2006, 10:25 AM
rough fit parts, prior to final fitting

Cudadrag
08-07-2006, 02:53 PM
At least that was the reason I got when I asked a 6 second street car why he didnt run one. Watched him run in the 6s in early 90s then drive it to dinner that night.... was awesome.

6 seconds? This had to be a tube car. I have seen Pro Mods that were technically street legal and could run on the street for short distances. But a 6 second production framed street rod? I figure 7 seconds would be the fastest my Cuda could be pushed and that is blown race fuel or alcohol. And even then something is going to die. (Hopefully just a car component.) At 3000 lbs I figure 2000+ horses with a ton of torque (literally) would be needed to push a 6 second run.

My scared and feeble little brain can't even imagine this.

23T-Wedge
08-07-2006, 07:43 PM
A hot wind will occasionally blow through here.........just the same, you might want to keep your BS meter in your back pocket..............:D

NigelTufnel
08-07-2006, 09:11 PM
Cudadrag I dig your project a lot. I'd love to see you clean house at next years Pump Gas Drags. My car is not near as radical as what you're building but I'm sorta in the same boat with the transmission. My Challenger has a 500 ci. wedge with a GT47 turbo and should make well over 1,000 hp. So far I have the boost turned down to only 10 psi to be nice to the factory block, but soon I will build a Keith Black bottom end and then turn up the boost. At only 10 psi of boost it still makes 838 rwhp and 871 rwtq. I just busted my second Tremec 5-speed, this one was a built TKO-600 (cryo-treated shafts/gears, etc.). My car is a total street/highway car and I put a lot of highway miles on it, which is why I loved the 5-speed overdrive Tremec's but they just don't live in a 4,000+ lb street car (all steel body, full dyno-matted interior, roll bar, stereo, heavy leather seats, subframes, etc). The weight of my car, plus the big torque is what is killing the trannies. I have always had manual transmissions all my life, including 12 years I've owned this Challenger, Hemi 4-speed to start and three different Tremec TKO trannies after that. But I am now finished with manual trannies, I just can't spend one more dime on them. I looked into the G-Force (strong but no overdrive, and I won't give up my 3.54 Dana) and the Rockland T-56 (supposed to be 1,200 hp, but at what weight??) and the Liberty (super strong, but clutchless and no good for a street car). The Lencodrive sounds interesting, but don't like the heat thing since my car has to drive hours and hours on the street/highway. Blah Blah Blah, in the end I have decided to order a pro-built glide with JW ultra-bell and case, Neal Chance bolt-together converter, all top shelf internals, capable of 2,500 hp in a 3,200 lb car (which I figure must be good for 2,000 in a 4000 lb car). These super glides are living in Pro-Modifieds running 6's at well over 200, so by gosh ought to be stout enough for my tank.

I figure the 1.80 1st gear glide will be perfect for my engine's mountainous torque curve (over 400 lb/ft rwtq at 2,000 rpm, peaks at 871 lb/ft rwtq at 4,300). One nice thing about the JW ultra-bell and case is they are SFI certified, no need for a trans shield. I'm sticking a Gear Vendors behind it for the overdrive. Hope it will treat me right on both street and strip. We'll see. Good luck with your extreme Cuda project and post what you decide on the trans.

Cheers!
Nigel

OHD
08-08-2006, 12:22 AM
About that 6 sec street car.....that time is the same it takes me to realize my bulldog has eaten a lot of pizza crust when he sleeps under my desk.

Seems to be made of the same perfume too...:pee: :leghump:

The problem with the last post can be summed up in two words, Gear Vendors, that will be the weaklink and break real often behind that power arrangement.

As for this statement: "I looked into the G-Force (strong but no overdrive,etc.." That is also very far from the actual truth. Long can and will build a trans with overdrive from .997 to .776.

Also ZF has a killer 6spd trans all the way down to .47 for OD if you don't want to change to skirts for your driving pleasure...:jawdrop:

NigelTufnel
08-08-2006, 08:25 AM
OHD, thanks that's good info, I didn't know G-Force offered an overdrive. But I do remember reading the same report that Warren Johnson finally gave up on running G-Force trannies in his Pro-Stockers specifically because they kept breaking, so he caved and went with the Liberty like all the other PS teams. Those Pro-Stockers only weigh about 2,350 lbs and make about 1,350 hp which I think peak is somewhere over 9,000 rpm which tells me they probably make less than 1,000 lb/ft torque which means my engine might actually make more torque than a Pro-Stocker. I don't think horsepower kills trannies, it's torque + weight + shock load (rate at which the torque is applied to move the weight). This makes me think that my 4,000 lb tank with 1,000 lb/ft engine being hit by a manual trans on slicks is more actual force hitting my driveline than what a Pro-Stocker's driveline sees at launch, mainly because they weigh so much less. So then I come back around to the fact that WJ (and apparently all the other PS teams) could not make a GF live very long launching a 2,350 lb car with less than 1,000 lb/ft torque. If that's true then I wouldn't expect a GF to live very long in my car. Anyways, I've already got the glide/gv project going so I'll post the results on whether it survives or not. By the way, the standard Gear Vendors unit is rated to take 1,200 hp but they do offer a modified race version that is good for 2,000 hp, which is the one I ordered. I hope it's as tough as they say.

Jamze Duncan
08-08-2006, 09:47 AM
A hot wind will occasionally blow through here.........just the same, you might want to keep your BS meter in your back pocket..............:D

Good one, 23!

Cuda, Schubeck likely gave you good advice about the trans - and was probably considering what he perceived as your level of experience, too. He was trying to save you a lot of headaches. It's may be better to listen to someone who actually knows something, rather than just anyone who can keyboard & post. Remember, keyboard artists are not all created equal..

OHD
08-08-2006, 10:03 AM
The post above is very insightful....

WJ moved on at the "suggestion" from Long Machine Shop owner. hint hint...no :love: lost on the breakup.

He is very simular to Garlits, wants stuff free, right now, whats to get paid for advertising for the sponser, thinks his poop does not stink, and is a real "gem" of a guy.

Be careful believing everything you read until you verify it.

I would ask Gear Vendors for some references, directly from their customers, that have that power level going through their stuff.

Do the same with Long Machine, they wil give you names, phone numbers, and many other references.

I checked out and spent several months talking to Long Mark and several guys in shift dept, Liberty Paul and Craig, Lenco two different people, Jerico one time and bye bye, Richmond tech guy said now way, Doug Nash 2 with torsion bar and cluster shaft bearing supported case, double diamond gears, and several serious crew chiefs that run std transmissions in their owners/bosses' cars to get my information.

It is very hard to get a 100% straight story from anyone but, a pattern emerges that clearly establishes baselines to follow, if your want reliability, for the different combinations.

I am an old man that would rather err on the safe side, PRIOR to spending big money. I have enough used up, blown up junk, that is perfect but sold as-is, purchased from great vendors on eBay. I don't need to buy anymore.

I am rarely PC when someone or company produces a POS and not afraid to speak my mind and back it up with research either..

Kevin Garceau
08-08-2006, 11:17 AM
Car was definatly more of a race car than an actual street car. He had over 600 cubes in a full chassised car which basically had the stock "type" body wrapped around it. I have no idea how much it weighed, but guessing not very much.

Full size race slicks, Im guessing pro stock size of 16x33s. 2 Funny Car cages, and large supply or blue bottles in the back. Im guessing the car made well over 1100 hp on motor alone and was not shy of putting 4-600hp of spray on it. He drove it out to the drive in with exhaust (nothing more than empty race mufflers) and took the track owner with him. "Street car" not much of one, streetable - barely to the extreme. Car that he took for dinner I guess so.

Point was, when I asked him about a lenco he stated no cooling circuit, and since he does take it out he couldnt do it.

My buddies NMCA Pro car weighs 3500 and he drives it, ran 8.3s but then that motor came apart every weekend. Lots of spray on 525 cubes with conventional style heads.

I really dont give a crap, what anyone else runs. I have no reason to make something up about other peoples cars. Hell my junk is slow, why wouldnt I lie about that.

Cudadrag
08-08-2006, 02:48 PM
Kevin, I hope I never run into to him. Just his spray could knock me over. Nigel, Thanks for the input. It’s nice to see I'm not alone on this tranny thing. (though sorry to hear of your tranny woes) I think the growing support against a manual is really beginning to mount. When one talks with the Liberty and G-Forces of the world they claim their trannys can easily handle the power and weight goals we both are looking at. When a tranny maker rates their transmission lets say 1500 horse and comparable torque for 3000 lbs what does that mean? 5-8 runs? Are they that hard up for a sale? If something I created was splattered all over the track after assuring a buyer that it is all but bullet proof would embarrass me right out of the game. And if my part were going to fail I wouldn’t sell it. I also understand in this sport it is impossible to guarantee anything. EVERYTHING can break. Especially when trying to match unknowns.

Well I’m not sure of your timeline Nigel. But for me the good news is I do have some time. As you can imagine after purchasing the Schubeck motor money is a little tight. Next spring is the likely time for any transmission decision or purchase. I really would like to thank everyone who was expressed there opinion. And please keep them coming. I am not the only one benefiting. As you noticed a lot more views of this post then replies.

OHD, Nigel. Any pics of your cars, engines ect...?

Kevin Garceau
08-08-2006, 03:24 PM
Kevin, I hope I never run into to him.

I dont even remember his name anymore. But this was in 95 or so. I had never seen a stacker trailer show up at a bracket race before. He had a pro mod and this car in it. The pro mod had two names in big letters scrawled across it "Scott Shafrihoff" although it wasnt Scott, it was someone in with him, so money on this deal was NOT an object. Matter of fact he put the motor on the ground on saturday had someone truck him a motor over night to him to race on sunday.

I would be willing to bet that Camaro had well over 75k in it to run those speeds. So it wasnt your avg guy trying to do something cool it was a purpose built piece.

With the spray he could bring it on gradually over course of run so tranney abuse was limited by that aspect.

NigelTufnel
08-08-2006, 07:23 PM
Cudadrag, I totally understand your wallet must be hurtin big time, but that engine is one awesome piece. I'm sure you'll be runnin down those big dawgs at the Pump Gas Drags when you get it rollin. By the way, I hate the fact that I'm giving up my manual trans, I've never had an automatic in any of my performance cars. But at some point i have to put an end to the madness, and the glide seems to be a safe option (not absolutely guranteed though as you quite correctly pointed out). At least you have some time to make sure of your decision. I talked to the fellas at Liberty and they told me they are working on a clutch-assisted version of their Extreme 5-speed but it's still in the early stages so not sure when it would become available (if even). I'm pretty sure that trans would handle your power.

Oh, here's a couple pics of my sherman tank (well it weighs the same)...

http://users.anet.com/~sdurr/images/turbo/progress34.jpg

http://users.anet.com/~sdurr/images/turbo/progress38.jpg

http://users.anet.com/~sdurr/images/turbo/progress37.jpg

Good luck on your project, and post back when you know what trans you're going with.

moeflo
08-08-2006, 09:17 PM
That Challenger is a piece of work. Obviously a ton of thought and top-shelf execution in getting the required plumbing into so little space and somehow making the finished product look uncluttered. Gorgeous work!

23T-Wedge
08-08-2006, 10:41 PM
Man, that makes me want to throw a blanket over my junk..............very, very nice..........................:D

OHD
08-09-2006, 06:12 AM
I am going to have to polish the duck tape and replace all my bailing wire with wire ties to compete with that, nice car.

Where are the spark plugs, opps wedge...:idea:

superbee1970440
08-09-2006, 02:11 PM
Nigel, your challenger kicks ass! What sort of EFI setup are you running?

Sam

Cudadrag
08-09-2006, 02:28 PM
Nigel! Nigel! Nigel! You can't show this crowd a car like that without warning. Man, that is a nice Dodge. Must be hard to drive. I would be spending too much time just looking at it. Very nice job....

NigelTufnel
08-09-2006, 03:21 PM
Thanks fellas. That old heap ought to do ok once it gets a decent transmission, but it won't hold a candle to a Cuda with a Schubeck under the hood; man that is just KraZy! but in a real good way

Superbee, I'm running Accel DFI.

Cudadrag
08-09-2006, 04:32 PM
I don't think the Cuda will look as nice. Both my cars are little more strip then street. But should look ok. The Cuda will have an obvious modified look. You car is a street dream.

Cudadrag
08-10-2006, 05:47 PM
Hey Nigel, Say I also talked to Liberty about their "Street" extreme trans. This was last year and they said they only have a prototype. Since then they started offering their LSC5000 which is not what I was hoping for. I like you am a 4 speed guy and I guess I'm going to have to re-explore the options. But I'm guessing that a simular glide is what I will end up with. You mentioned a KB block. are you looking at their street hemi?

NigelTufnel
08-10-2006, 06:14 PM
No I will be building a wedge. My engine compartment is cramped enough with all the turbo plumbing, a HEMI would require lots of rework. I just want the KB for it's strength. Anyway it's going to be quite a while before I can afford to do that.

Cudadrag
08-11-2006, 06:36 PM
I hear you on the afford part.. And the compartment size. Joe Schubeck called me and now wants me to trade up to his 904. (I have attached a partial pic of the 904 motor on his dyno) This motor is 4.9" bore 6" stroke in a 13" deck block. The heads are similar to my 588. The motor produced 1200+ horse naturally aspirated on 92 octane. The problem is the additional cost and the sheer size of the motor. The damn thing is 35" wide. My frame rails are only 39" ( You can learn more on his 904 at http://www.schubeckracing.com )

His 904 was what I was originally looking at but price and dimensions became a problem. Now everything has changed and he also wishes to help install and promote the car. This is becoming bigger then me and possibly outside my drag racing competence. I first will need to find some more $$$. Then I will need to find some more courage. I think both can be mustarded.

Now back to transmissions. Since the scope of the car has changed, your glide solution becomes more obvious. My main concern is gearing. These glides were designed with mega horse and torque in mind. Will your car be able to pull hard enough thru the wide 2nd gear bandwidth? Seems to me that too much time may be lost just getting the engine to its max power and RPM range. And would a glide be "Highway friendly"? I may be way off so would really like to hear your (and other's) opinions. Thanks!

OHD
08-11-2006, 07:34 PM
I have a Kb block nice piece. With sheetmetal valve covers needed for valve train clearance, I had to "modify" the right shock tower a tad.

The engine mts, transmts, rear and bars, and all the mounting parts and sheet metal were finished this week.

Everything fits very well and will hold all the power my little Hemi will pour into them.

The main reason for my 5 speed is to keep the engine in its peak range.

Cuda, Email address, if you want to see the stuff.

moeflo
08-11-2006, 10:28 PM
Cuda, that's the beauty of an automatic. With a top notch torque converter provider, you give him your engine data, and after he climbs back into his chair, he'll put you in the ballpark. Usually a custom converter includes one RPM adjustment. (I'd expect you'll use it, as this motor is just a little off the beaten path)

But with the right converter, it will flash to, and maintain this RPM (usually a little over torque peak RPM) untill the car-speed catches up, then it climbs to shift-point. It repeats the process after the gear-change.The engine is "happy" at that RPM, and will threaten to rip your car in half.

BDS 871 Cuda
08-12-2006, 04:55 AM
I hear you on the afford part.. And the compartment size. Joe Schubeck called me and now wants me to trade up to his 904. (I have attached a partial pic of the 904 motor on his dyno) This motor is 4.9" bore 6" stroke in a 13" deck block. The heads are similar to my 588. The motor produced 1200+ horse naturally aspirated on 92 octane. The problem is the additional cost and the sheer size of the motor. The damn thing is 35" wide. My frame rails are only 39" ( You can learn more on his 904 at http://www.schubeckracing.com )

His 904 was what I was originally looking at but price and dimensions became a problem. Now everything has changed and he also wishes to help install and promote the car. This is becoming bigger then me and possibly outside my drag racing competence. I first will need to find some more $$$. Then I will need to find some more courage. I think both can be mustarded.

Now back to transmissions. Since the scope of the car has changed, your glide solution becomes more obvious. My main concern is gearing. These glides were designed with mega horse and torque in mind. Will your car be able to pull hard enough thru the wide 2nd gear bandwidth? Seems to me that too much time may be lost just getting the engine to its max power and RPM range. And would a glide be "Highway friendly"? I may be way off so would really like to hear your (and other's) opinions. Thanks!



I read up on the 904. I see its 37" wide and about the same weight as
a big block chevy. All fine and dandy! Then the price, $85,000???

How much is your 588? $50,000 or more?
It's real cool and I like what you doing,
but way out of the price range for me.

As for a tranny, I would go with the
Ultra Glide, just for less headaches.

Good luck with the project.

Kevin Garceau
08-12-2006, 06:47 AM
As for a tranny, I would go with the
Ultra Glide, just for less headaches.

At least Im not the only one that will get flamed on this site....LOL

OHD
08-12-2006, 10:32 AM
People will always try to go with something that is easier, auto vrs man trans is no different.

Now they give you a tube shirt and a mini skirt with an auto...:pile: maybe next year a free pass to SF for the weekend.....:smileroun

Kevin Garceau
08-12-2006, 02:36 PM
Switching to glide was more difficult than repairing my 727.

But I did it for bracket race reasons and consistency. I will post factual ETs when the swap is completed faster or slower I really dont care.

NigelTufnel
08-12-2006, 04:18 PM
Ok, but with the money I will save from blowing up manual trannies at least I will be able to afford a few extra sets of bra and panties, ha ha. At least I won't have trouble applying the clutch in my high heels either.

Cudadrag, I thought you were out there with the 588, but a 904??? Holy Shnikeys batman! You're going to reverse the earth's rotation if you ever hook that thing. At that torque level I don't think any normal manual trans will stand up. I think you're looking at one of the clutchless trannies, Liberty, GF-2000, or perhaps Lenco. I would just go with a JW ultraglide, simple, effective, driveable on the street, and won't break. But that depends on whether you mind wearing women's under garments, ha ha.

I'm hoping the broad torque range of my engine will cover the wide ratios of the glide but only time will tell on that. The problem for me is that I want overdrive high speed highway cruising too, so the converter stall speed is a problem. I can't have a converter that flashes to my peak torque rpm, which would be around 4,300 because it would be slipping and creating too much heat under normal highway cruising at around 2,100 rpm... plus it would be a pain in the butt for street driving taking off from stops etc. So I got a bolt-together converter from Neal Chance so i can adjust the stall if necessary. Initially I'm going to try a stall around 3,200 and see if it's liveable on the street and not too doggy at the track. The transbrake should help some on launch. I dunno if it'll work out, this is my first trip into the land of automatics. But at least one thing will be for sure.... I won't break this trans, and that is the MAIN concern at this point.

John Kunkel
08-12-2006, 05:07 PM
As for a tranny, I would go with the Ultra Glide, just for less headaches.

At least Im not the only one that will get flamed on this site....LOL

Try telling a hardened Mopar fan that the TH400 is superior to the 727 TF. You'll get the same uninformed flame job.

Cudadrag
08-13-2006, 12:25 AM
OHD, My e-mail is fire918@yahoo.com (I don't know what fire918 means. I took over this account from my teenage son a couple years back. Guess I should ask him.) As far as price I have and am paying less then the posted prices (among other side deals Joe and I have) but yes these Motors are expensive. Being a friend of Joes helps, but he doesn't give "anything" away for free. But remember these motors include everything (starter, alt, fuel injectors and pumps, Dry oiling pump and can, ignition. ECT.) Everything but an air intake (cleaner) and headers, which are dictated more by the design of the vehicle. If you look at a price of a KB built crate and whoever's heads and add the "add-ons" the cost starts to become comparable. Even a big Mopar crate is close to 20k and can go to 30k when all said and done. So the answer is YES. I have spent and am contemplating spending more. It’s the "more" part that I'm having problems with. All the eggs will be in 1 basket, and that is never very good. Good old Murphy and his damn laws are always just around the corner.

Being the Cuda is stripped down all transmission solutions are new thus no conversion problems. I haven't totally given up on the manual transmission option, but it is now in second place. A glide of some sort is the likely candidate. The Cuda does have it's torsion bars attached to the tran's crossmember. (But may have to go to make more header collector room.) My next question is: Does any of these glides have standard bottom transmission mounts? Or am I looking at a new mounting setup. Many of the new(er) manuals would bolt right in assuming engine motor plate distances and angles were correct. (Motor will have front and mid plate mounts)

OHD
08-13-2006, 09:39 AM
Cuda

I have the torsion bars in stock location. They tie in nicely with the new trans mount. Minor problem in the overall picture.

My headers, with 4 inch collectors, end 8-12 inches in front of it.

I am working with http://www.ovaltubing.com to make a pipe that comes out of the collector goes oval, drops down under the crossmember, then comes back up goes back to round then into Borla 4 inch muflers. The exhaust exit will be a bananna pipe right in front of the slicks. All 4 inch exhaust, stainless steel.:thumbsup:

Blownefi/Nigel you don't need a slush box to keep the girly clothes, just move to San Fran and with a purple car, bra, and panties you will be the man.....:joy:

Cudadrag
08-16-2006, 05:07 PM
I just got a quote from JW for a glide. 92351-V80 Mega Horsepower long length PG W/ 180 Vasco output shaft Powerglide $4,500. Ultra Bell Bellhousing w/SFI cert. 30.1 $200. Internal balanced 168 tooth flywheel $150. Remote cooler and fan $200. 10" Special converter w/custom steel stator $900. 4 gal of JW synthetic fluid $100

This quote is with PG trans brake, deep pan. No Shifter. (They recommend a Precision Performance.) Stall on the converter is not set since total rear and engine numbers not available. Gears were based on the rear gear ratio, tire height and engine power estimates thus may change for any final combo and purchase.

$6000 total. MAN this is an expensive hobby! This is more then my 451.

Is there any real advantage of a CO2 air shifter? (I mean in the real world. I know the Pros need that extra 100th)

NigelTufnel
08-16-2006, 07:45 PM
Cudadrag, that's the same trans I just bought from JW. It's waiting for me up at the shop. I'm going to start working on the install tomorrow. I'll post a couple pics of the trans for ya. If you're not going to campaign the car I can't see the need for an air shifter.

Yeah that trans is not cheap, but it's supposed to be good for 2,500 hp.

Cudadrag
08-17-2006, 02:23 PM
Yes I would like to see some pics. Joe Schubeck is in contact with the only other person running his 904 to see what transmission solution he runs. He believes is some sort of high end 4-speed automatic.

I also recieved a quote for a 2000 horse capable TH400. (For $1200 less) Because the back half of the 904 motor is drilled for chevy blot patterns some chevy words are starting to come up. My 588 is drilled Chrysler RB. (I guess Joe saw there are more chevy.) The plan is still to trade up to the 904.

Are you able to use your transmission crossmember on these glides? If not some torsion bar and tranny mounting issues are sure to be raised.

Let me know what you think

OHD
08-17-2006, 08:37 PM
man trans capable of handling 2500-3000 is 5-6 K the bell Trick Titanium is another 3500 and the clutch pac(s) sliders pressure paltes candle sticks forks etc add 2500-3500-up to 7000, make sure you get the disc grinder to keep the sliders and disc maintained.

18-30 is range for any pro trans setup man or auto

Airshifted man is very difficult to drive on the street, if not totaly impossible and is outlawed in many classes.

FYI
That 6.5 full bodied Red 69 Camaro that gives Pat Mussi fits, over last winter went from auto to man and the total bill was close to 45K. He is now running .99-97 60s and is pushing the teens...in 1/4 mile..Timmy loves the shifting...and says its only money.....and ya gotta pay to play with the big boys.

NigelTufnel
08-18-2006, 10:11 PM
Started the install today. Here are a few pics...

JW Ultraglide new in box...
http://users.anet.com/~sdurr/images/trans/new_9.jpg

Out of the box, notice how thick the case is. The case and bell are both SFI certified as is, no need for a shield/blanket. The bell is about 1" thick.
http://users.anet.com/~sdurr/images/trans/new_10.jpg

In this pic you can see I've replaced the glide tail housing with the longer Gear Vendors adapter housing...
http://users.anet.com/~sdurr/images/trans/new_11.jpg

Here's a front view of the inside of the bell, notice all the beef around where the starter mounts. Actually it wound up being a little too beefy, as you'll see later...
http://users.anet.com/~sdurr/images/trans/new_12.jpg

My Neal Chance bolt-together converter would not clear the inside of the bell, so I had to grind some material...
http://users.anet.com/~sdurr/images/trans/new_13.jpg

Here's the converter installed after clearancing the bell. The converter is a 10 inch bolt-together, so actual diameter is slightly over 11 inches...
http://users.anet.com/~sdurr/images/trans/new_14.jpg

Here I am mocking up the entire assembly to check for clearance, notice the Gear Vendors overdrive is now installed. It just clears the cross member. I should be able to re-use the mounting bracket from my Keisler 5-speed kit with a slight modification...
http://users.anet.com/~sdurr/images/trans/new_15.jpg

And here's a profile view.... driveshaft is going to need shortening up
http://users.anet.com/~sdurr/images/trans/new_16.jpg

Cudadrag
08-19-2006, 12:06 AM
AWESOME POST.. This is exactly what I envisioned and got quoted. Once again more questions.

1. Is there any dropoff in performance with the overdrive unit? Or does it spin pretty easy when not engaged.

2. I understand using the overdrive unit to knock the rpm down for highway street use. But how can this help with heat? I'm assuming it has a relatively high stall. Won't everything just heat up more? (Please forgive my ignorence. But in my day we had no 2000+ horse street worthy trannys. Hell the horse power of today was only in the Nitro world. And the horse power of today's nitro burners was only found in Rocketry)

3. Did you get the Gear Vendor's Overdrive and adapter from JW?

Once again thank you for sharing your project with everyone. You are making my choice easier. I talked with a sales rep at JW today. We talked about the glide vs. some of today's beefy 3 and 4 speed autos. He said he has heard rumors that some time can be picked up going with a 3 speed transmission. (In the lower to middle SS type classes of cource. The race is too quickly over to consider a 3 speed in the upper classes.) But has yet to see any data supporting this. In his mind the glide is still king of the 4 digit horse power world. I think you made a wise choice Nigel.

Thanks again. P.S. What is PAW 1000? Is that a Benz?

NigelTufnel
08-19-2006, 12:37 AM
Power is transmitted through the Gear Vendors unit at all times, even when not in overdrive, but there is no internal slippage and no power lost through the unit. For more specifics I would suggest giving them a call, their tech guys are very helpful.

The amount of heat generated depends on the converter's stall speed. I don't know exactly what rpm my converter will stall at, too many variables to know that for sure until I can actually drive it. This is new territory for me also since I have always run manual transmissions. I will be installing the biggest trans cooler I can fit. I'll let you know how it goes.

I bought my Gear Vendors directly from the Manufacturer. I know JW also sells them, not sure if there is a price difference. Maybe they can save you some labor time by building a glide with the Gear Vendors already attached, but I wanted to do it myself (that's just me).

Here's a piece of trivia for you: 4 of the top 5 finishers in this year's Hot Rod Pump Gas Drags ran powerglides (and two of those were Mopars running a JW Ultraglide). Must be something to it.

The Mercedes with PAW 1000 is just a customer's car at the shop where I do my work, completely unrelated to me.

Good luck on your transmission decision. I will post my experiences with this setup... it may not be the right choice for everyone but at least I can help other people to make a more informed decision. I'll post more pics as I go.

Cheers,
Nigel

Cudadrag
08-25-2006, 12:55 PM
Hey Nigel, Are you using an adapter to bolt the tranny to a Mopar RB block?

Kevin Garceau
08-25-2006, 01:50 PM
I think with your HP that would be scarey. I would go with the JW bell rather than the adapter kit. Then of course the aftermarket case would be best bet, regardless of whose you use.

One t hing I have learned of JW and my buddy is a dealer. They are not the quickest. Demand outweighs supply maybe.

Cudadrag
08-25-2006, 05:18 PM
oh.. The ultra bells are drilled for your setup? Cool.. I thought maybe they were all Chevy like the orginals. I was told by Tim Harrel of JW that its about 2-4 weeks.. Is this optimistic?

NigelTufnel
08-25-2006, 05:47 PM
Cudadrag, I'm using an Ultra-bell for BB Chrysler. As you can see if you look at the pics I posted, it's so thick I actually had to grind some material out so my torque converter would fit. Other than that it seems to fit ok, but I haven't fired it up yet. I think the 2-4 week estimate is probably accurate, but I got lucky when I ordered mine they just happened to have one ready to go and they shipped it the same day I ordered it. The Chrysler bells are what they run short of because they don't make as many of those as they do for Chevys and Fords.

Kevin Garceau
08-26-2006, 07:09 AM
Yes it has the mopar bolt pattern on it, then bolts right up to the tranney of a glide. It seals with either silicone or an o-ring. Bolts to the front pump bolts.

Kevin Garceau
09-03-2006, 10:23 PM
well they are going on 4 weeks behind when I was supposed to have it.

It has now cost me for sure one weekend of racing. The best weekend and best payout of the summer :(

Cudadrag
10-06-2006, 03:39 PM
Hey Nigel, How did the glide work out for you? Are you using the e-body's crossmember? My cross member's mount holes are too narrow for the glide. Are you using some sort of transmission mount adapter? Or modified crossmember? My car is all but ready for engine and transmission install. I believe I can modify my existing crossmember to the JW Glide's bolt holes but I really hate changing things if I don't have too.

Any insites you can share would be highly welcomed.

Thanks!

Kevin Garceau
10-07-2006, 09:08 AM
cuda...

going from my sb tf to glide the mount is pretty close. The glide appears to be about 2 inch closer to the block than the TF...

if you do a search on TCI's website you can find all the dimensions. So in theory you could just use that for reference, it has the dimensions from the bell to the bolt holes and the space between the holes.... pretty cool

Kevin Garceau
10-07-2006, 09:11 AM
tranney schematics with dimensions

http://www.tciauto.com/Products/TechInfo/trn_dim_small.gif

PG dimensions
A - 25 23/64 (short) 27 91/16 (long shaft)
B - 16 5/16
C - 20 9/16
D - 3.75
E - 19


TF dimensions
A - 34 ½
B - 16
C - 22.75
D - 2.75
E - 18 13/16

site link
http://www.tciauto.com/Products/TechInfo/trans_dims.asp

Cudadrag
10-10-2006, 03:11 PM
I will definaty look at TCI's site. The only concern I have is the Bore space for the mount (D from your schematic) Since the Motor will be set with Motor and mid plates where ever the tranny lines up bellhousing depth and such is not an issue. But the 2.75" to 3.75" tranny mount is. I am hoping not to have to modify the cross member but instead find an adapter mount for this setup.

I will let you know what I find. And thanks again!

Slingshot383
10-11-2006, 08:20 AM
Did you know that in the short tail shaft configuration, both the Powerglide and torquflyte are the same length? Also the Glide isn't lighter, just has less internal friction due to fewer rotating parts.

Kevin Garceau
10-11-2006, 11:57 AM
Man I dont know about that. I got them both on the bench and it seems to me the TF is considerably heavier.

Cudadrag
10-14-2006, 12:47 AM
Well so far no one makes a mount for a glide to a Mopar crossmember. I am find it hard to believe. It looks as if most modify their crossmember to accomindate the transmission.

A universal mount cannot be that hard to make. Bet it sell!