FWD Questions

[moparallen]

I have a bunch, maybe someone can answer some for me? This is supposed to be a strictly stock class, on dirt, entry level, pump gas. They are cross refrencing the VIN to tech the cars. The tech guy is pretty sharp. BUT I will be the only Carbed engine out there.

1. I have a 83 Shelby Charger with the HO engine. How much more can I cut the block WITHOUT having to use a different timing belt? Should I cut the head or Block?

2. What carb are most of you running? I do have to use a STOCK air cleaner. NO open element or K & N allowed.

3. What cam sounds stock? I do plan on 3 angle valve job, cleaning up under the ports, etc.. I can't open the ports or the Intake. They have checked those.

I think being able to drive thru the corners will win, What will make that possiable?

4. Remove the front sway bar or not? I do have a V6 shadow I can get parts from. Should I use those springs on my struts? I will try to get about 6* camber on the left and -2 to -3 on the right. I think I can creatively do that.
1/4 toe out on the front. What about the rear camber and toe?

5. Install the sway bar from the shadow on the rear? Or just find a bigger diam. and make it fit?

That will do for now, maybe?
Thanx
Allen

[dirttrackracer]

Get as much weight out of the car as you can especially off the front. Remove front sway bar for dirt I don't know on pavement.Toe both rear tires tward outside of turn Put stiff RR spring in to help car turn.

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by moparallen

1. I have a 83 Shelby Charger with the HO engine. How much more can I cut the block WITHOUT having to use a different timing belt? Should I cut the head or Block?

We run an 86 Charger. You can cut .060 off the head and .060 off the block or both. Do not go over .060 on either one cause the decks are not think enough to support a bigger cut. Last one I took .060 off the head only and needed a new belt one tooth shorter. You can get it at any parts house. After .020 is removed from either deck or head you will have to centerline the cam with a degree wheel cause milling the head or decking the block changes the cam centerline a lot.

2. What carb are most of you running? I do have to use a STOCK air cleaner. NO open element or K & N allowed.

I run a holley 500 cfm 2bbl carb with progessive linkage and with my own custom adapter. This carb used to be available from Mopar Performance, but not anymore. I lucked up on it at a swap meet. A standard holley 500 will work too. You'll have to slightly mod your stock air cleaner to get it to fit. WE run an open face air cleaner.

3. What cam sounds stock? I do plan on 3 angle valve job, cleaning up under the ports, etc.. I can't open the ports or the Intake. They have checked those.

You don't want to touch the intake port or the head intake port anyways. IT's the exhuast port that is lacking. Can you run a header, if so, get one. Hooker and Hedman makes them and you can get them off of e bay too. If you have to run a manifold, grind the divider back inside the oputlet protion where you mount the exhuast pipe too. Use any of the Mopar cams from Mopar Performance or get a custom grind from Comp Cams. You can use '88 and up roller cams too. Don't use the Turbo car cams though. Do a 4 or 5 angle valve job if you can and make sure you ask to have the valves back cut. IT makes a big difference on these engines.

I think being able to drive thru the corners will win, What will make that possiable?

A car that handles properly and can turn in the center of the corner.

4. Remove the front sway bar or not? I do have a V6 shadow I can get parts from. Should I use those springs on my struts? I will try to get about 6* camber on the left and -2 to -3 on the right. I think I can creatively do that.
1/4 toe out on the front. What about the rear camber and toe?

Keep the sway bars. I doubt you will need the V6 springs. You have to remember that as you remove weight that is almost the same thing as adding more spring rate. In other words, with less weight you need less spring and since you did not change the stock ones, the will be stiffer than you need with the cars new weight reduction. We are still runing stock springs under our asphalt car and we have different rate spring rubber we can put in there if we need them. IT all depends on the amount of suspension travel you have. You will need more travel that what our car uses so your stock springs may be too stiff to start with. You'll have to get it put together and make a test run to find out. You wont need 6* pos camber on the LF either. Between -2 and -3 should be enough for the RF too. Put somewhere between 0 and 1/8 to IN not out. Never toe out a race car. For starters set the rear camber and toe straight up at 0 for both of them. Later after testing you may wont to add -1/4* to the RR but no more. You really don't want to tune with camber on the rear.

5. Install the sway bar from the shadow on the rear? Or just find a bigger diam. and make it fit?

Dont add that bar. The stock one should be fine. If you want to there is an adjustable front and rear set up that you can get, but the stock bars should work fine for starters.

Pm me with your e mail and I can send you some info that I can't post up here that might help you out some. And make sure to get all the weight out of the front end as possible from the seat forward. You'll want more weight in the rear for ballast. Also replace that front steel bumper with an aluminum one from an '86 for some weight savings too.

[moparallen]

Originally Posted by dwc43

We run an 86 Charger. You can cut .060 off the head and .060 off the block or both. Do not go over .060 on either one cause the decks are not think enough to support a bigger cut. Last one I took .060 off the head only and needed a new belt one tooth shorter. You can get it at any parts house. After .020 is removed from either deck or head you will have to centerline the cam with a degree wheel cause milling the head or decking the block changes the cam centerline a lot.

I know how to use the degree wheel ok. I should be able to do that.

I run a holley 500 cfm 2bbl carb with progessive linkage and with my own custom adapter. This carb used to be available from Mopar Performance, but not anymore. I lucked up on it at a swap meet. A standard holley 500 will work too. You'll have to slightly mod your stock air cleaner to get it to fit. WE run an open face air cleaner.
What can I look for to find a 500 series


You don't want to touch the intake port or the head intake port anyways. IT's the exhuast port that is lacking. Can you run a header, if so, get one. Hooker and Hedman makes them and you can get them off of e bay too. If you have to run a manifold, grind the divider back inside the oputlet protion where you mount the exhuast pipe too. Use any of the Mopar cams from Mopar Performance or get a custom grind from Comp Cams. You can use '88 and up roller cams too. Don't use the Turbo car cams though. Do a 4 or 5 angle valve job if you can and make sure you ask to have the valves back cut. IT makes a big difference on these engines.

Do the MP cams SOUND stock? It is supposed to be as from the factory?
I do have to run a manifold
A car that handles properly and can turn in the center of the corner.



Keep the sway bars. I doubt you will need the V6 springs. You have to remember that as you remove weight that is almost the same thing as adding more spring rate. In other words, with less weight you need less spring and since you did not change the stock ones, the will be stiffer than you need with the cars new weight reduction. We are still runing stock springs under our asphalt car and we have different rate spring rubber we can put in there if we need them. IT all depends on the amount of suspension travel you have. You will need more travel that what our car uses so your stock springs may be too stiff to start with. You'll have to get it put together and make a test run to find out. You wont need 6* pos camber on the LF either. Between -2 and -3 should be enough for the RF too. Put somewhere between 0 and 1/8 to IN not out. Never toe out a race car. For starters set the rear camber and toe straight up at 0 for both of them. Later after testing you may wont to add -1/4* to the RR but no more. You really don't want to tune with camber on the rear.

So what to set the Left Front camber

Dont add that bar. The stock one should be fine. If you want to there is an adjustable front and rear set up that you can get, but the stock bars should work fine for starters.

Pm me with your e mail and I can send you some info that I can't post up here that might help you out some. And make sure to get all the weight out of the front end as possible from the seat forward. You'll want more weight in the rear for ballast. Also replace that front steel bumper with an aluminum one from an '86 for some weight savings too.

I have some ideas on rear weight
thanx
Allen

[dwc43]

Not sure I understand the carb question so I'll try that two ways. IF you want the old 500 like I have, you most likely wont find one unless your really lucky. IT looks like a Holley 4412 2bbl, but it uses the progressive linkage like the stock 5220's use. Or, you can just use a standard hHolley 4412. I think the older carb will come off the corner a lot faster if you have to really get out of the throttle.

Here's a link I forgot about it. IT has a pic of my old carb in there. Maybe that will help you out some.

http://www.moparchat.com/forums/atta...5&d=1099357816

AS far as the MP cam sound, I can't tell much difference in our car. We use one of the dual pattern MP cams. Remember, can't touch the heads exhuast port or manifold, then use a dual pattern cam with more exhuast duration and or lift to make some gains. If you can find a company on the net that does pressure honning you can do that to your exhuast manifold to increase it's flow. Pretty much undetectable.

I'd set the LF front up with 1 1/2 to 2* pos camber on the LF for starters. You'll want to watch the travel and get the springs close first and then start checking your tire temps to see if you have the camber and air pressures set up right.

We used our cage to add some rear weight to our car. Make sure to brace up the front and rear strut towers real good. Not only to prevent damage, but to prevent flexing too.

[moparallen]

ok
I will pm you
Allen

[it's all dodge]

If you decide you want to try the MP cam which is recommended for turbo, (I know, you gotta carb) last three 314, it is a 110 lobe sep, .460 lift, might work good, I got one I sell for cheap, I have no idea about how it sounds, it is never used, for slider cam

[rickhmn]

hey DWC. Just pulled ahead off a late 85 daytona 2.2. 11mm head bolts. this in reference to an earlier thread. :-) I found that just a little toe out on the rr really helped us out. we elected to run no extra weight in the rear cause we have no weight rule and lighter just seems better. The toe helps a lot in the middle and it comes off ok but I need to get turned in. More cross weight?

[it's all dodge]

The staemeant said never toe out a racecar: I can't speak about oval racing a FWD, but it says "RACECAR" not FWD racecar, Most I've seen been toe OUT, RWD. Set the toe out maybe on rear drive, and set the ride height at a proper tie rod angle. I thought sprint cars use toe IN? the exception?

[moparallen]

Thanx for the advise. How much for the cam? Can any one tell me how stock it will sound? I don't think they will check it unless we are really fast or it sounds bigger than stock. If it is cheap enough I may try it.
moparallen1@yahoo.com

Allen

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by rickhmn

hey DWC. Just pulled ahead off a late 85 daytona 2.2. 11mm head bolts. this in reference to an earlier thread. :-) I found that just a little toe out on the rr really helped us out. we elected to run no extra weight in the rear cause we have no weight rule and lighter just seems better. The toe helps a lot in the middle and it comes off ok but I need to get turned in. More cross weight?

Yep, common practice to increase the bolt size to 11 mm in the older cars since they hold better. Still wont help much though if you use the stock torque to yeild bolts though. Best to use ARP bolts are studs.

Toeing out the rear wheels is a cruch that is not needed with the proper set up. IT drags the wheels down the straights and that hurts you speed. The reason yours wont turn in is because you have no added ballast weight and it's nose heavy. More cross weight wont help you it will only hurt you. I'll give you a list for cures for corner entry.

too much front brakes

too much RF air pressure (check tire temps to find out)

Too much neg, or pos camber. (again check tire temps)

Too much toe out

too much cross weight

rear roll center too low

RF spring too stiff

RR spring too soft

Front weight % too high

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by it's all dodge

The staemeant said never toe out a racecar: I can't speak about oval racing a FWD, but it says "RACECAR" not FWD racecar, Most I've seen been toe OUT, RWD. Set the toe out maybe on rear drive, and set the ride height at a proper tie rod angle. I thought sprint cars use toe IN? the exception?

We are talking about the rear set of wheels on the FWD car, not the front. You do not want toe in or out in the rear wheels. WEll, really you want just a little toe in so they will become 0 when the car is in motion.

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by moparallen

Thanx for the advise. How much for the cam? Can any one tell me how stock it will sound? I don't think they will check it unless we are really fast or it sounds bigger than stock. If it is cheap enough I may try it.
moparallen1@yahoo.com

Allen

The turbo cam wont sound any different than the current stock cam you have. It won't make as much power either cause of the centerline and duration and lift split. IT's made to hold the intake valve open longer to pack the cylinder using that turbo that you don't have. It just want make the power that the non turbo cams make. Check Mopar Performance for a dual pattern cam. We have one in our car and even with headers you can't tell it's not stock. Tried to send you a pic today too, but my lap top keeps locking up for some reason. I'm going to get it checked out and then try to send them again later.

[it's all dodge]

A, heres the part # P4529314 240/240 24 degrees overlap, .460 lift 108 camshaft centerline, 106 installed centerline Maybe DW got it confused with stock cam? The lobe sep of 108 is what makes alot of the lope, makes peakier power as opposed to a wide say 112 cam, which makes broader power band. The 108 lobe sep is also the reason it's not real popular nowadays, in a turbo car. Turbo cams, atleast the better ones (I learned after I bought it) are usually 112 or so cams. Mopar doesn't give any .050 lift specs, they are behind on that. It's never run, I'd take $50, I have no idea how it'll sound, maybe somebody on turbododge.com who had one in the 90s will remember, unlike somebody who never had one, would think the extra lift will help out

[dwc43]

Stock carb cams are 244* duration 28* overlap 108* centerline .430 lift

Stock turbo cams are 228* duration 20* overlap 110* centerline .

Unless if they changed it and that could be the P4529314 is 240*/248* duration 24* over lap 110*centerline and .460 lift. It's not bad, but you want get the most out of it for a race car with a carb. We run a dual pattern cam to get the most out of the exhuast side of the head since that's where the issues are. With more lift and duration ours should thump a little but it does not. The roller rockers help with that I am sure. If you use any of the Mopar cams you wont have a noise problem with it. I wished I knew how to download a video and I'd let you here ours run at idle. For some reason my camera wont download them to my pc. Probably need to buy somehting else to make it work.

[moparallen]

What cam are you using? it is a factory roller?

MY 2.2 book says the 314 cam is great, for turbo cars but to not use it for Carbs. Thanx for the offer
Thanx
Allen

[moparallen]

We went racing and got a 2nd in the first night out!
Went again the next week and won the heat. Led 10 laps of the feature then the LR axle support broke.
We will be back!
Allen

[dwc43]

Sounds great. How did you break the arm mount? You get tagged? IF so, might have to look at Jerry's car and beef it up before it happens to us. Oh, we don't use a stock cam. Good luck with it. Let us know how you do when you get it back together.

[moparallen]

rust combined with a spin out from the rear.
Send me a pm on engine parts
Allen

[dwc43]

Thanks. I'm working on the parts right now.

[moparallen]

3 heat wins, several seconds in features, we are getting closer! Some asked me what type turbo I was running? hehehehehe

Allen

[cageman]

I know some locals that race the four bangers and they toed out the r rear tire and it really cruises through the corner on dirt now.