|
#271
|
|||
|
|||
Ken, probably the most important consideration for you is the slotting of the main bearings. This significantly helps the rod bearings to get sufficent oil during high RPM operation. For your RPM, I would go probably to 5/8" long slots. Also, check to insure the crank oil feed holes line up with the middle of the main bearing. The easy way to check is to install the upper half of the bearings in the block, oil the 1/2s and install the crank. Rotate the crank several times and you will see the oil line on the crank---then rotate the crank to where you can compare the oil hole locations to the center of the bearing. I have seen "more than one" stock crank oiling holes need to be modified to line up with the hole in the main bearing---so check closely.
We have used several different "tri-layer" bearings---included the "V" bearing. We really haven't seen any difference in bearing life. The "V" bearing is a little narrower---might be a good choice. Several year ago, we narrowed both the main and rod bearings on a limited HP SB(around 350HP). Narrowed them .060"---made about 8HP more---just a thought! The reason I like to feed both ends of a LA engine---it seems (to me) there is the potential for creating turbulence in the main oiling galley when the oil must pass the main bearing feed holes as the oil moves toward the front of the block. I understand your rules---and your "plan of action" may be the only course available to you. It's not hard to do---go for it---it couldn't hurt! BUT, BUT, BUT---make sure the threaded fitting doesn't protrude down into the main oiling galley and provide an obstuction. Drill, tap, install the fitting---then grind the passage clear afterwards! Make sure all the passages in the block are clear, round as many corners as possible! |
#272
|
|||
|
|||
I would like to thank you for all the help! Ran the boat today at or first event. moters strong an no signs of the any problems at all. Again many thanks for the mods.
|
#273
|
|||
|
|||
Outstanding article!!!!
|
#274
|
|||
|
|||
Sanborn,
I am new to this forum and am very impressed with your knowledge of SB mopar oiling and cooling. Of course I am looking to have a "what about my setup" discussion with some of the guys housing years of experience. Like others have previously posted, I have been plagued with oiling problems resulting in collapsed lifters, "dinked" valves, and main baring falures but never any issues with the rod bearings. I have relied on "mopar engine building shops" in the past as my engine building experience is limited to BBC. I have come to find out that no one will pay as much attention to detail when dealing with machine work, clearances, etc. as a hotroder with passion and pride in his work. That is why I will be taking on this build myself. The block I have had all the issues with is still in the car but I am currently building a new motor on the stand using a new standard bore (honed to 4.005) 360 stock magnum block (1997). The engine is used primarily for the street with a few passes down the quarter mile a year and a bunch of dyno runs. The engine is limited to 6500rpms and consists of the following: 4" Eagle forged crank Eagle H beam rods Ross blower pistons (Heavy) Hughes ported Edelbrock Magnum Heads Hydraulic Roller Cam Stock hydraulic roller lifters Pushrod oiling w/ 1.65 roller rockers Canton Drag Race pan (8qt) and pickup Melling HV oil pump Oil cooler (sandwich adapter) 8AN lines Novi 2000 intercooled blower w/ meth injection Before I jump into my thoughts about oiling mods I would love your opinion. FYI...I would like to keep the sandwich style adapter and stear clear of external block oiling. Aaron |
#275
|
|||
|
|||
The only "concern" I have is your oil cooler line size. A #8 line has a ID of .375". That is real "iffy" if you decide to go higher on the RPM. I would want at least a line size of #10(.490" diameter).
|
#276
|
|||
|
|||
Sorry everybody following this thread, I can't PM yet....I am still building up my account with enough posts. I may piggy up the thread with a bunch of info specific to my build.
I'll take a look at my lines to verify size when I get back to the house. My understanding was that AN was measured in 16ths of an inch, making 8 AN 1/2". I have never broken out the calipers to physically verify so I could be way off the mark. I'll let you know what the actual measurements are in a little. What would you recommend as far as block oiling mods? (1) Large Pickup - 5/8" or larger (2) Enlarged and blended pump passage and initial block passage (3) Modified main bearings I am game to do all of the internal oiling mods you have listed, I am just unsure if they are all applicable to hydraulic rollers. Thanks for your time Aaron |
#277
|
|||
|
|||
Measure the ID of the fittings. That's where your restrictions will be, not in the line.
For your application, all three areas would be recommended. And just a general checking of all passages is needed. Make sure the pickup and cap and block passages do line up properly. To be honest, I have never worked with a magnum block----but it should be about the same as a standard block. |
#278
|
|||
|
|||
Melling Oil Pump Question
Can you guys take a look at this picture of my Melling HV oil pump? There is a grove on the lower machined surface from the pressure side of the housing to the oil pump drive shaft hole. Is this supposed to be cast in there or is this a casting flaw? I hate to go through the block with a fine tooth comb doing oil mods and have an issue with the pump itself and be loosing pressure up the pump shaft. Is this grove suppost to lube the drive shaft itself?
Has anyone machined out the cast pump output oil hole in the pump to .5" to match the main oil passage hole in the block? Thoughts? |
#279
|
|||
|
|||
Took a look at a new magnum 360 block this evening. Measured the oil passages and all passages come from the factory with Sanborns recomended oil passage sizes!!!!
|
#280
|
|||
|
|||
Circle Track engine
Got a nice circle track engine for sale in the classifieds.
|
#281
|
|||
|
|||
Has anyone machined out the cast pump output oil hole in the pump to .5" to match the main oil passage hole in the block? Thoughts?
Yeh, I drilled mine out to .5". Then I put a 5/8" pick-up in it. I also rounded the corners the best I could. |
#282
|
|||
|
|||
Dear Mr. Sanborn,
I’m in Venezuela and last week I read your post about oil mods in small block. Please I need your help to made some oil mods, due las week I broke my engine. I have a Dart GT (like a Duster in the EEUU) with: Car is about: 1300 Kgs. 360 .030” over bore KB #743 Forged Piston with total seal rings. SFI Damper. Lunati Solid Mechanical cam, Part Number: 404A4LUN • Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 290/298 • Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 263/271 • Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .597/.620 • LSA/ICL: 106/100 • Valve Lash (Int/Exh): .016/.016 • RPM Range: 4500-8000 “J” Heads full ported with 2.02”/1.60” Ferrea Valves. Victor 340 Intake , HVH 2” Separator and 850 Speed Demon Carburator 1 7/8” Headers Moroso Electric water pump with Aluminum Radiator. 904 Trans with JE 3800 stall converter. 8 ¾” Rear end, 4.56:1 Ratio and 28x10.5 MT Drag Radial (I need slicks) I have a HV Meeling Pump, stock oil pan and pickup. Bypass from right galery to left galery and plug (complete) the right oli passsenger to 1 main bearing. Stock bearing both (Main and Rod). Stock Rod end (Ligth) The Crankshaft is stock (.030”/.030”) but had a Ligth work. All the rotating element was balanced. I’m thinking that problem was when I pull 7000 rpm. I know I made a lot of mistakes, but I need your help in order to fix everythins. What I will have to do? Swap to a forged crankshaft?? Swap to Eagle rods?? What oil mods I have to do?? Thanks for your time. Regards……Jose Romero |
#283
|
|||
|
|||
Jose, sounds like you have a nice, very hot little 360 engine.
Since you ask about the oiling mods first, I want to talk about them first. For an engine that potent, I would do all the oiling modifications, especially the slotting of the main bearings. In addition, I recommend not using the stock oil filter system, use a remote filter. Why? Because the stock filter makes the oil turn some sharp corners and the flow is reduced greatly. A remote filter eliminates those problems. Get a good, deeper oil pan as well. About the crank and rods, the stock components are OK at 7000RPM. But, by the time you balance the crank and prepare the rods, you can almost buy a good aftermarket crank and rods. The choice is yours---and tariffs may make the decision for you. If I could afford it, I would use aftermarket. I hope this answers your questions. If not, don't hesitate to come back on and ask! |
#284
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
I will make a check list of all mods, and will talk again.......... Thanks again... Jose Romero |
#285
|
|||
|
|||
Check List
Hi Sanborn, this is my check list; please give me your opinions:
1.Install a good quality Deep Sump Carter and Put a dual inlet oil pick-up with 5/8”ID or use the standard pickup line and add a second with a bottom plate with a pickup in it. 2.Install a HV Meeling pump with Mopar Performance Spring kit and hardened oil pump shaft. 3.Tubing the right galley of the block and plug in the front. 4.Enlarged the oiling passages in the pump and block to .500”(1/2”), and slot the main cap to meet the pump passages. 5.Drill the passage in the rear cap to 1/2". 6.Drill holes that carry the oil in/out to the oil filter area to 1/2” as well. Sharp corners in the intersection of these passages as possible, and tap 3/8” to install a remote oil filter. Can I used boat adapte?? What do you think about oil cooler?? 7.Drill a 7/16" hole and tap it for 1/4" NPT, run a steel line from that fitting to the back of the block. Drill a 3/4" hole in the back of the block right beside the oil pressure passage and directly below the intake surface. Install a #8 bulkhead fitting in the hole at the back of the block and connect it to the line coming from the front. 8.Feed the left side oil galley by drilling and tapping a 1/8" NPT hole in the front of the right side galley and drill and tap a 1/8" NPT hole in the center of the left side galley. We connect the two with a 3/16" steel line. 9.Drill to enlarge the passage from the main oiling galley to the main bearings from 1/4" to 9/32". 10.Slot the main bearings holes to 1/2" in length and 1/4” to meet the block holes slots. 11.Block the passage that goes from the front main bearing up to the left side oil galley. Do this with a deep freeze plug in the left side oil galley to cover the hole. 12.Can I make a grove in the camshaft (#2 & #4 journals)??, mine don’t have it. 13.Install an aluminum block off plate over the cam opening. 14.Can I buy two sets of main bearing and use the top-bearing shells in the block and main caps in order to obtain full grove?? 15.What about the crankshaft holes, can I enlarge this?? What size is the best?? What about make a large radius at the edge?? Regards….Jos |
#286
|
|||
|
|||
Jose, before we go any further---exactly what type of use will this engine get---drag only, drag/street, street only, oval track?
|
#287
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Thanks..... |
#288
|
|||
|
|||
Jose, what you are proposing to do is great----but may be far more than is needed.
1. Cleaning up and enlarging the oil passages is needed. 2. Tubing the right side oil galley is usually done only for a roller cam. I think you are using a flat tappet cam---and the tubing is not required. Please understand, tubing is good if you want to do it---just not absolutely required. 3. The dual line pickup is great---just not absolutely required. 4. An oil cooler is nice---but I don't think oil temperature is absolutely required. 5. Feeding the main oiling galley is not required in your application. You are not turning enough RPM to require it. 6. Use of "full groove" main bearings is not required. You will get plenty of lubrication with 1/2 groove bearings. 7. Grooving the camshaft is not required for drag race use. Just make sure the oil holes in the camshaft line up with the holes in the cam bearings. You don't want to restrict the oil to the rocker arms---but if you oil them too well you will be taking oil away from the main/rod bearings. Jose, It never hurts to do "too much" to improve oiling----but some of the things you listed are not required! If you have further questions---don't hesitate to "ring"! |
#289
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#290
|
|||
|
|||
I don't think I would use it. Why? Most of the stock type 90 degree adapters are for normal street use only---not for high flow oiling requirements.
|
#291
|
|||
|
|||
I have to use the 90deg. adapter, but I drilled the passages all to .5 " and rounded all the corners that I could.
|
#292
|
|||
|
|||
90° Adapte
Quote:
It's another option for me due in this country, we have a money change restriction (Bs to Dollar). Sanborn what do you think about this option?? |
#293
|
|||
|
|||
I have a question about the crossover tube from right to left oiling gallies.
If you are not doing external block oiling, what is the purpose of blocking the left galley from the #1 main? If you left this plug out wouldn't you be feeding the #1 main from the right and left gallies????? |
#294
|
|||
|
|||
Sanborn,
Can you help on this one? I have read a few articles on tubing the galley and some people say to do the crossover tube and isolate the front main from the right side galley. This would feed the #1 main from the left galley??? It seems like 1/8 NPT and 3/16 id tube are pretty small to feed the left oiling galley. No problems running a hydraulic roller with this configuration? |
#295
|
|||
|
|||
uh im new to this but when you say ''all an oiling system needs to do is cover the rod bearings'' im sure you realize the importance of valve train lubrication versus parasitic loss not to mention numerous other problems created by not getting good oil up top in any pushrod motor running eight grand i ran a limited late model/ump sportsman in central il, for about 4 years to bad for me cost forced me to become a chvy guy of sorts but long story short my 358 on alky made real good power @ the 4700-6700 range so why the 8000 rpm seems harder to hook up come feature time parts price goes up and reliability goes down dont take this the wrong way i'm sure you know what your doing i just like talking cars getting different opinions and so on i love mopars but mopars on a dirt track are it if i ever get back into racing it wiil be duster/demon/aspen bodied street stock for sure
|
#296
|
|||
|
|||
Wow, looks like a lot of activity on this post in the past two days---let me try to answer in order.
Jose, Use of the 90 degree adapter is OK PROVIDED you can keep the passages large enough. I just don't like to make the oil flow around any more corners than is necessary. aholms, the main bearings are ONLY fed from the right side galley. The only purpose for the left side galley is to feed hydraulic lifters. Reread the article, I think you misunderstood. And, if you are using hydraulic lifters, will you be turning enough RPMs to warrant most of the modifications? Remember, the modifications were for engines running 7000-8000RPMs. 360mpiguy, there are a lot of different levels of racing. We race Super Late Model and on a lot of tracks/on a lot of nights can hook practically any kind of engine. Hook the engine hard enough to bog a 800+HP engine. And at our level of racing, we must turn whatever RPM that is necessary. If that means 8000+RPM, fine---if it means 9000RPM---so be it! We race against a lot of guys who make their living on the dirt tracks. We do our own engines, but most of our friendly competitors buy/lease their engines. And in the pits are lots of $30K+ engines every night. If you are going to get serious about racing a Mopar---then RPM is your friend---and you turn whatever is necessary. We race against World of Outlaws/ Lucas Oil type racers every week. Bloomquest, McDowell, Clanton, Arp, Clint Smith, Freddy Smith are all "local" guys to us! Remember, there are different level of racing! |
#297
|
|||
|
|||
I had received two e-mails since yesterday---one supportive of what I said, one very unhappy with my response basically not believing that dirt racing can be that difficult, expensive, etc.
Guys, I am not trying to "put anybody down" or be "elitist" or be a "rich SOB". I am just trying to explain the local conditions under which we race! Racing conditions very a lot around the country---and around here in Late Model or Super Late Model(as some call it)---competition is very tough. There are a few(but not many) Mopar racers in Late Model. And we have probably been doing it longer than most anybody else. And in order to make a Late Model field of cars you must get all out of the engine you can! Most of our races have 30-60 cars trying to make a 24 car field---and .300 of a second can make the difference between making a field or not! I remember several years ago, we were at a Hav-A-Tampa race($20K to win). We qualified with a 14.30 on a half mile track---we thought we were in good shape to start well in the qualifying race. By the time qualifying was over, the pole was 13.99"---and we were 49th fastest! There were 88 cars trying to make the field! Those are the conditions we race under just about every night! If you don't race under those conditions---be thankful---but keep in mind that a lot of racers do! That original post was written for a "Limited" Late Model engine. Around here the limiteds are about as cutthroat as the regular late models. High RPM is normal. And I was trying to help those that might be entering that arena. |
#298
|
||||
|
||||
Kind of off topic but a follow up to what Sanborn was talking about.
Limitted in the name of any class = spend double what you ought to have to for $200 to win We run the cross over tube, drilled out oil galleries, return hose to pan from ps vc and a good pan on a 360 that turns 7000 all night long. Only one bearing failure and that was before we put the crossover tube in. But we are probably only making 350hp so there are many of the serious mods that we have not done. Did put an oil temp guage in this year Sanborn, and were mildy surprised how low the oil temp was. |
#299
|
|||
|
|||
Funny how folks get push out of shape.....Come on guy's take it a use it if you can...
Now back to the oiling mods part of our show.... I'm trying to all this into my head.... Thanks sunborn...I get a lot out of your teachings and wisdom... |
#300
|
||||
|
||||
Back when I was the moderator of the circle track forum, I cleaned this stuff up all the time, now nobody cares.
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
oiling modifications | coreyhouse | Performance Talk | 1 | 07-23-2009 11:35 AM |
Small block oiling modifications | coreyhouse | Diesel & Turbo Diesel Chat | 1 | 07-21-2009 01:06 PM |
Location of Typical Oiling Modifications | sanborn | Circle Track Chat | 6 | 06-08-2005 02:14 PM |
Typical oiling system modifications | 340duster1 | Circle Track Chat | 2 | 02-12-2004 03:56 PM |
Typical Oiling Modifications | DYNO360 | Circle Track Chat | 7 | 11-07-2001 10:04 AM |