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#31
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(sry, I dunno how to do the quoted text the right way)
Sanborn said: if you use high vacuum dry sump systems there are other things to do. We have also found several things to do to the cooling system to produce more consistent cooling throughout the RPM range. ------------------------------------------------- Sanborn, I'm real interested in the details on the above. Could you expand on that a little? Thanks |
#32
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The comment about "High Vacuum" dry sump systems was directed toward scavenging the oil out of the heads(aluminum W7,8 and 9) back into the pan. And, scavenging the oil out of the valley with the dry sump thus preventing it from ever reaching the pan and thus never coming in contact with the crank, rods, etc.
I don't like to let the valve springs sit in noncirculating oil. The oil gets very foamy(Is that a correct word?), gets very hot, looses its cooling ability on the springs and also tends to heat up the oil in the tank. I prefer to use valve spring sprayers (oilers), let them cool the springs then be removed quickly to the pan or pump. This keeps the valve springs "happy" and doesn't overheat the oil. I don't have any photos of this but if you need photos, I can take a few for you. The modifications to the cooling system are almost as extensive as the oiling modifications. Again, I don't have photos but will be finishing up our little limited engine in the next 2-3 weeks(I hope) and can take photos if you want. The modifications are to the water pump, the timing cover, adding additional cooling lines to the side of the block, rerouting the water flow through the block, modifying the intake for additional water outlets and some modification to the heads to eliminate hot spots. And (I almost forgot), pulley sizing. I am a happy camper when we can run our car without any openings up front, even in July, and keep water temp at 200 degrees (on gas) for a 50-100 lap race. And I have been a happy camper for several years. |
#33
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Pics would be helpful. If you're able to do that, it would be much appreciated. How big a radiator do you need to run to be a "happy camper"??
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#34
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I can accomodate with photos, just give me a little time.
We just use a standard dirt late model radiator, two row, single pass, about 19" high, 28" wide. I think we use AFCO. |
#35
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Pictures are a good thing
I also would like to see pics on these mods. I do use water lines from the timing cover to the center of cyls 2 & 4 and also to cyls 3 & 5. then on the intake from the front to the rear water passages. I use 80 % pulley reduction on gas and alcohol. I run a 190 thermostat with an oil cooler in the rad. This is in an IMCA modified. ( stock 6 blade pump). On gas we run a 370 cid, 500 cfm 2bl carb, 8 blade Mopar pump, air cooled oil cooler, 5/8 restrictor. This motor does not have the timing cover lines but does have the int. lines. the nose is totally closed but has an air box to pull air with limited mud from the ground. The mud coming through the front of the nose was causing most of our temp problems. It took my brother making the changes on a friends car to prove our theroy. he thought it was going to make it run hotter. We also moved the motor back from stock to the rules position to go from a home made pan to a Champ pan. We will see how that changes the oil temp.
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#36
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I have a question about oiling the top of the motor. I would like to turn the cam bearings to block the passage to the top. I think I want to drill staight down through the passage to the heads into the main passages below them and plug the top part of the hole. I'm worried about pumping to much oil to the top. Ramhead said .032 restricters for roller rockers, but I'm using stock iron adj. and solid lifters. My questions are, what size hole or restricter, will it work, and did this make sense? Stock block by the way. Thanks Sanborn, for the priceless info.
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#37
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sadsack, let's think about what we want to do for a minute. You are concerned about putting too much oil to the topside-You want to reduce oil flow to the top! Right? What you are really wanting to do is keep more oil down at the crankshaft! Right?
If you restrict oil between the camshaft and cylinder head-what you will find is you are still losing most of the oil around the camshaft bearings. An alternative is to tap the 1/4" passage from the crankshaft main bearing area up to the camshaft bearing with a 5/16" NC thread. Then just drill a 5/16" set screw with a 1/8" size drill, and screw the set screw up into the block. That reduces the amount of oil up to the cam- and on up to the rockers. What I prefer to do is to feed the oil to the rocker shafts externally and reduce the amount of oil up to the camshaft with a 1/16" hole in the set screw! |
#38
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Sanborn, thanks for the reply. I hear ya, sounds better to me. So if I'm losin' oil at the cam bearings I should reduce all of the cam feeds to .125?
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#39
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Generally, you can restrict the oil flow to the cam bearings with a 1/8" restrictor. You can probably use a smaller hole in the #1, #3 and #5 bearings than even 1/8". Only the #2 and #4 bearings need a 1/8" hole because they are the only cam bearings that oil the rocker shafts.
BUT, BUT, BUT- YOU MUST GET ADEQUATE OIL TO THE ROCKER SHAFTS!!!!!! If you don't get enough oil to them, you got a big problem! This is a case where your engine "tells" you what it needs! The exact size depends on what pump you have, how good your oil passages are, your RPM range, which rockers you are using, etc. And, the best way to tell is to prepare a valve cover "with a view". That is a valve cover with a cut out top so you can actually see how well the rockers are oiling while the engine is running. Hint----- Don't make the cut out too large or else your headers might get covered with oil. |
#40
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The revised plan is, Front oil it on the inside,(lifter galley) plumb the left and right passages together, and block the passage from the front main rearing to the left passage. I'm using a mellings m72hv pump, solid lifters, and stock iron adj. rockers. I wasn't going to enlarge passages, only chase them to make sure they are drilled right and clear,(once again my concern is emptying the pan) and 1/8" restricters in the cam feed holes. Maybe this is overkill for a motor the might see 6500 rpm, but I like it and the price is right. Do you think I should enlarge the passages? Anyway, thanks again
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#41
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oil restrictions
Well when I first saw the restrictions to the top end I GOT SCARED. I have been there and it causes problems. Then I saw Sanborn's reply to make sure the rockers have enough oil. I'M FEELING MUCH BETTER NOW!!! Althogh I still have never seen a need to restrict the oil any where on my Mopars I also know that I have not seen everything and don't have Sanborn's experience.
I have found for me if I do anything away from the Chrysler Engine Book, I have problems. I have built a 640 hp alcohol motor with a dry sump and several 550 hp wet sump alcohol motors and a few 2bbl gas motors. RPM's range from 6500 to 8200 and my problems only occur when I try to out smart the good book. Well that wouldn't be THE GOOD BOOK, but the good engine book by Chrysler. |
#42
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In our class, we are not allowed remote filters or relocated filters, therefore where would we plumb the oil line from the top going thru the rear bulkhead, since we cannot go to a tee offline from remote filter, where do you suggest we go to??
Thanks Dodge 29 |
#43
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Front Oiling on Stock Block
I have a couple of questions.
On a stock block it looks like I should be feeding the front of the main oil galley and getting oil for the left side lifters from the same place. Should I be tapping in 2 different places? Could someone explain why in the mopar oval track book they talk about putting tubes in the left side oil galley? What are they accomplishing? Thanks, Al |
#44
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Their restricting the flow of oil to the left side of engine, ok on solid or roller lifters, not ok on hydraulic for obvious reasons. where cam plate bolt on, we drill the left side hole or right side if looking at front of block, 5/8 if I remember(need to look at my notes) and insert a 1/2 freeze plug inside into the tube behind the front of the block,so as to eliminate oil flow to left side head. and then insert 5/8 plug in front of block to close hole. if running hydraulic then need to run and external line from the boss on left side above lifter galley and drill and install line thru the rear of the block using a bulkhead fitting.....to a secondary line at filter, using an adapter
by restricting oil to the left head, increased oil to the rod bearings, the weak link in this engine, now, if i may need to know where to run that line if your not allowed remote filter and filter must mount in stock location, where do we draw oil from to the oil left gallery??????? |
#45
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This is still one of the best threads on the entire internet.
Thanks again Sanborn |
#46
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Thank you for the kind words!
When I started to work with Mopars many years ago, I tried to find out as much info as I could. To my frustration, the so called "experts" wouldn't tell me anything. All they wanted to do was sell me parts or their "black magic"! Most of the experts could easily be described as #*#*, *#*# or even worse, ********!. And many of these "experts" turned potential Mopar racers into Ford and GM racers. I vowed then to always try to help fellow racers as much as I can. And I hope I have been true to my pledge. I will always help a racer keep his engine together and generally how to make it run---although that last 5-7% of performance is usually found by experimment, trial/error, mistakes, etc. Sometimes I can be pretty blunt but I guess that comes with age/ experience. |
#47
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Tubing the Block
I have been working on the oiling mods my 318. We tubed the block with 1/2" copper tube. Since I am oiling through the push rod we had to put oil hole into the tube. We chose to go with 0.125". Is that too big, too small, or just right?
We tapped for a 1/4" pipe at the front of the galley so we are getting oil to both ends of the galley. This meant that the cross over tube couldn't be placed there. So we tapped for 1/8" pipe in the center of both galleys. Was that the best spot or should we have picked another spot to tap into the right side galley? We also had to make a special threaded plug for the front of the right side galley. Mopar says to tap the front and back for 1/2" pipe plugs. We were able to make 3/8" pipe plugs work but the front plug had to be shortened because it has to be flush but not block the front main oil port. |
#48
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I'm confused, if you are oiling thru the push rods, why are you drilling a hole in tube. We do not use this method, we drill left front hole at cam to 3/4's( doing this from memory, dont have my notes at work) then we insert a small freeze plug and block gallery behind, then we insert a freeze plug to plug the hole we just drilled bigger.
We run oil from right rear to left front oil gallery, we do not go externally to the block, we use 1/4 npt fitting at the top inside intake valley, use soft pliable copper tubing to plumb. Are you running solid or hydraulic cam, with solid we dont oil left top of engine, yes it will wear parts, but we dont care, it doesnt wear enough to be an issue, on a daily driver it could be......the rocker shaft is oil thru a different gallery....I'm not sure what you are doing, supply more info, is this block that was tube and now your trying to go back to run hydraulic??? Dodge29 |
#49
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Magnum Heads
Since I am running Magnum heads I do not have a way to oil to the heads without getting oil to the lifters.
The only thing the left side oil galley does is oil the left side lifters, unless I am missing something. I plan on running a solid cam but I have yet to purchase it. I really want the Hughes pedistal mount rocker arms but they aren't currently available and Dave said he has no idea when they will be. He was talking to me about the oil through adjustable pushrods with the stock rockers but I am somewhat hesitant. |
#50
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we are now running Magnum heads, this all new to us, first of 3 engines has been converted. I'm not sure, how to resolve your issue, Sanborn need to jump in, we are restricted to a hydraulic cam, so we have modified and are oiling left side thru the lifter gallery, we tap in rear right side and run line to left front and we are using hollow adjustable push rods, and stock stamp rockers, not allowed any roller rockers or cams.
Have little experience with this set up, give us a few weeks and will let you know, thanks Dodge29 |
#51
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Oil filter
I have a question on the ports that leave the block where the oil filter use to be. I currently have them tapped for 3/8" NPT. Is there a connector that goes from 3/8" NPT to -12?
I can only find 1/2" NPT to -12 or 3/4" NPT to -12. |
#52
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I checked my books and Aeroquip shows a 3/8 to 10 as the biggest 3/8 conversion. All the 12 are converted from 3/4. You may have to use two adapters to get what you want. or use a 3/8 to 10 line instead.
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#53
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3/8 NPT to AN12 is offered in a steel fitting. You will need to machine the ID to .400" in this particular fitting. If you can use 1/2NPT to AN12, these are offered in anodized aluminum with the correct ID sizing. I use them all over the car so they are easily available. I hope this helps
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#54
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Ok I can't put a photo up of this dual oil pump pick up that I cobbled togather, but I can tell you how to do it. All the parts can be bought from Kevco and canton oil pans. Buy both pick ups one from kevco and one from canton. (Cantons) p/u mounts to the bottom of the pump, and (Kevcos) p/u screws in from the side. Put the kevco p/u on get it in place, then take the canton p/u and remove the screen boxs just leave the just the tube. (you can not cut the tube off grind the welds loose) Slide the canton under the kevco p/u ( you can't bolt these up yet leave it loose) then where the tubes intersect mark the kevco screen box, and then you have to drill a hole in the side of it. It took a 5/8 bit. After you do this you mite have to ajust the tubes. (ball peen hammer) Bolt the kevco on and then slide the canton onto the bottom and into the hole you drill in the side of kevco p/u screen box and tighten every thing up you ready to go. The idea is to have two p/u points, one from the side and one on the bottem. And the the oil pan I used was Kevcos. Not sure if it will work with cantons but it should. I did this on my motor and it worked well. I know this thing is alittle pricey but think about the cost of your motor, it's well worth the 105 bucks or so to do this. JC
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#55
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oiling system ? for sanborn
First I have a w2 head, x block with the copper tube in the right galley. I too want to oil through the push rod so I can install jesel or t&d rockers. I am looking for a guide tool for drilling the tube, a size to drill it and a size to drill the set screw plug in the front main web feeding the left galley. I have read a few of the posts and am not against joining the two lifter galleys in the valley with 1/8 pipe and #4 line. We are running an imca style modified and turn the motor between 7000 and 7800 using a flat tappet cam. also I heard it best to use a 210 radius push rod on the lifter end for oiling but could not understand why that was necessary. Also if you know anything about using a higher ratio rocker 1.7 or 1.8 that I may not want to incounter when I purchase them from jesel or T&D, like pushrod clearance issues, it would be helpful. I currnently run Crane 1.6 rockers and had to have pedastals made and install the oil hole in the head as the manufacture date was late enough that the T&D rockers were the recommened hardware. Thank you Sanborn for any bits of wisdom you could throw my way.
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#56
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I have a 340 block. I want to run a roller cam in it. My question is, with jesel rockers and roller lifters, what should I do about restricting oil from dumping out in the lifter bores? Will I have to run a copper tube in the left side with small holes drilled in each lifter bore? The other motor I have has the bronze bushings. I was thinking that would work with blocking off the right side and running a crossover tube, or also running tubing in the right bank with the small holes fed by a crossover. I'll be running a external wet sump pump, as dry sump isn't allowed in our limited class.
Thanks |
#57
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Ok 1 chrysler sells a jig for the lifters bores to be drilled and 2 you will need to block off both sides of the lifters for a roller and use the same type of jig to drill oil hole if you oil through the push rods. Not sure about bit size I'll look it up and if you install a copper tube dont drill out the # 1 main I think the tube will block it off if I'm thinking right. Sorry Sanborn not tring to step on any toes, You are the man. JC
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#58
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So tube both sides, drill the holes for the lifters. Dont drill the hole coming up from #1 main to the right bank. Then I just drill up from the mains to the left bank like normal. Install a crossover tube to the right side. Will this give the pushrods/rockers enough oil?
Thanks Quote:
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#59
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Well I mite have biten off to much. Let go down to my shop and get my books, notes and look at something,so I dont stear you wronge. I know if you run a roller you have bush the lifter off or tube the block and drill them out for the amc style lifters. If not the oil will just blow out those big liter holes. And a copper tube is cheaper than bronze bushings. Remember all this work is to control the 16 leaks in the block and get the oil where you need it rockers and spings. I'm back the lifter jig part number is P5007728 and the bitt size is 3/16th But I have 1/8's drilled in mine. Nothing on paper to back it up, I run T&D and oil thru the push rods and I have not burned up any push rod tips or rockers. I have both sides blocked off but I still oil from the crank for the left & right side. I need to put that cross over tube in. sanborn gona have to jump in on this one.
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#60
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the amc lifters you speak of, what are different about them compared to the standard roller lifters? I have a set of the normal roller 59* lifters. I was just worried that the oil would just dump out with a high lift cam, and not supply enough oil to the rocker gear.
I thank you for your help! |
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