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  #61  
Old 11-22-2005, 11:13 PM
JC JC is offline
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Bingo you hit the nail on the head if they open up that far you will lose oil psi. The anc is just a mech lifter that oils thru the push rod. It is the only oil thru mech lifter in the .904 size or the stock mopar lifter size. Plus we cant run rollers JC
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  #62  
Old 11-22-2005, 11:36 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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I just noticed some activity on this post---let me try to be of help!

First, let's get some facts together:
1. We are talking about 59 degree blocks.
2. Let's talk about roller lifters first---then flat tappets later.
3. I always describe the engine block from the position of sitting in the car; ie, the galley that oils the mains is on the right side of the block, etc.

OK, the purpose of "sleeving" the lifter bores OR "tubing" the block is to prevent the main right side oil galley from being opened up and dumping pressurized oil into the crankcase when using roller lifters. The reason it happens with roller lifters is the roller cutout on the lifter is high up on the lifter and it doesn't take much cam lift to expose the main oiling galley. For what it's worth, Engle used to make a special small diameter roller for their Mopar roller lifter that allowed the lifter to have a solid body almost all the way down the lifter. I don't think they are offered anymore.

When choosing to oil through the pushrods---and using a roller cam---it gets a little tough. And, you need to be precise with your oiling holes in either the sleeves or the block off tubes. It doesn't require a hole any larger than .040" to get enough oil to properly oil the pushrod, but it must be in the correct location.

First, study your roller lifters---where is the oiling hole to the pushrod? Even more fundamental---does your roller lifter even allow for oiling through the pushrod? I made this mistake before---thinking that just because there was a hole in the pushrod cup of the lifter meant that it would oil the pushrod. Check to make sure your lifters can oil through the pushrod!!!!!

Now, where do we put the hole in the lifter sleeve or block off tube. You want the hole to oil through the lifter when the roller lifter is at rest(on the heel of the cam). You can get this dimension by measuring the location on the lifter (from the top of the lifter), installing in the block and measuring how far the lifter protrudes out of the block(lifter bore) at rest. Some simple math tells you how far down the lifter bore the hole should be.

There are two methods to get the hole in the tube(or sleeve). The first method is to drill through the lifter bore from the opposite side of the lifter bore. After drilling the hole(in the correct location), you need to install a set screw to plug the hole on the opposite side of the bore. I prefer another way. I like to use a Dremel grinder with a small ball(about .100") rotary file on the end of the cutting tool. I just grind a small ball into the copper tube---not all the way through, just part way. The ball depression in the tube allows me to drill straight down with a hand drill bit #55-#60 into the oiling galley.

A word of caution---check your work after drilling with high pressure air on the lifter to make sure you intersect with the hole in the tube.

Getting the holes in the correct location is much harder on a roller lifter because they don't rotate. Flat tappet lifters are much easier because they do rotate and they usually use a wide oiling "ring" that gives much more latitude in locating the oiling hole in the tube.
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  #63  
Old 11-22-2005, 11:40 PM
JC JC is offline
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cry2

That why you are the man. Sorry just tring to help. Did you get those rules I faxed you. JC
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  #64  
Old 11-22-2005, 11:52 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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The earlier post only answered part of the questions---so this is a continuation of the previous post.

With a roller cam AND oiling though the lifters---you need to tube sides of the block and I would use a crossover tube between oiling galleys. This just gives the best control of that precious pressurized oil!!!

I like high ratio rockers (1.8 -1.9) for a flat tappet cam. The high ratio rockers give a lift profile much closer to a roller. When using Jesel/T&D rockers this also gives more pushrod clearance since the pushrod cup on the rocker is moved closer to the rocker fulcrum point.

JC, glad you reminded me. I got your rules FAX. Tried to call you at work one day---couldn't get through. I will call again.
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  #65  
Old 11-23-2005, 12:18 AM
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If you dont get me leave me a way to call back I'm in and out so much. We put a new phone system in thats automatidied (spelling) my voice box is ext:221 most folks hate that dam thing but I had to put it in . You know progress????????? I keep telling my self that. JC
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  #66  
Old 11-27-2005, 12:27 PM
HM Race Engines HM Race Engines is offline
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Default pushrod oiling

Sanborn I agree you are the man! thank you for the insight.my 59 degree tappet x block feeds the front main from the r/side like the others. i have a set screw in the front main web going to the left galley. also i do not have a tube or bushings in the left side. do i understand the need to still be there for the tube or bushings on the l/side. could i just just run an 1/8 pipe #4 line to the l/side. My other thought was to drill the set screw on the l/side to .100 to get oil to the l/side?
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  #67  
Old 11-27-2005, 01:13 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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HM, if you use a flat tappet cam, then it is not absolutely necessary to tube the left side.

But, you need enough oil to the left side galley to properly oil the pushrods/rockers on the left side.

The reason I recommend using a tube from the right side galley to the left side galley is to insure a full flow of oil to the front main bearing AND insure plenty of oil to the left side galley as well.

For those of you who are reading all this---keep in mind we are talking about an engine that oils through the pushrods using AMC type lifters.
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  #68  
Old 01-17-2006, 09:23 AM
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ChallengerChuck ChallengerChuck is offline
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Question for Sanborn: Would you do anything differently if you were going to use an R-3 block, a hydraulic roller camshaft, and traditional LA shaft-mounted rockers?! Would additional mods be required?!

Thank you very much for the excellent tech info here up to this point!!!
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  #69  
Old 01-17-2006, 09:54 AM
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Another question for Sanborn: What if any baffling would you do inside the block and/or the oil pan?!
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  #70  
Old 01-20-2006, 07:50 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Chuck, you've got me into an area that I don't know for sure.

I don't think the R3 block has provisions for "traditional" shaft oiling--only pushrod oiling. Be sure and check me on this!!! If it doesn't then you can use the "traditional" shaft oiling---but you need to pick up the oiling from outside the block, like at the remote oil filter and plumb the oil into the heads/rockers externally.

Other than that, I would still do the modifications described---provided your RPM requires it.

On the block, no baffles are required. On the pan, you do need to baffle to keep oil from running up the sides of the pan in the turns and oil at the pickup under braking. If you can use it, consider the Kevco pan. Price isn't too steep, they look good and work good.

What class are you running?
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  #71  
Old 01-24-2006, 09:35 PM
Hanzeng Hanzeng is offline
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Hello Sanborn-
Very interesting and informative thread. Question- how much 'wear' or friction or pressure drop does running an external filter and/or cooler put on the oil pump shaft (wetsump obviously), or is it nothing to worry about since it is a much larger/stronger design than chevies. Thanks-Hanz
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  #72  
Old 01-25-2006, 02:11 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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You really don't experience much pressure drop when installing a remote filter because the stock mount is so restrictive and the better aftermarket units have smoother turns which tends to minimize pressure drops. If you use a remote filter mount, make sure you use lines with a 1/2" minimum ID. Don't use hydraulic hoses---they tend to neck down and do cause pressure drops.
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  #73  
Old 01-25-2006, 08:09 AM
Hanzeng Hanzeng is offline
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There's a boatload of remote filter mountings out there...do you have a preference or a specific one that you normally use? Thanks
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  #74  
Old 01-25-2006, 02:51 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Yes, there is a boatload of filter mounts. We use two different filters---because our engines are dry sump. On the pressurized side, we use the Automotive Specialist filter mount. The only problem is these take a special($$) large flow filter(Same as Nascar Cup). There are others from CV Products, Moroso, etc. that are just as good for 99% of the applications.
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  #75  
Old 03-01-2006, 11:28 PM
HM Race Engines HM Race Engines is offline
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Default oil restricting.

hey sanbourn i was wondering about oil restriction that you might recommend? lets go back to a standard flat tappet 59 dggree oil through the deck motor, with approx 130 lbs on the seat pressure. would you restrict oil to the cam and or to the rockers? i know that the mopar engine book says not to restrict the oil to the rockers but i seem to remember an engine i had when i first started that had them. i did not have problems but years later i did after having changed the cam, but in hine sight i think that cam had grooves in the no. 2 & 4 journals. i was thinking that maybe the difference. as far as resricting the cam, i read a recent article in circle track that recommened restricting oil in any place that could be done safely and they recommened it going to the cam on a 351w ford which has some oiling like the MOPAR. i understand that the oil at no.2&4 going to the top end is the one BIG difference. just wanted your input.
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  #76  
Old 03-02-2006, 02:23 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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It's hard to give a definite answer. It depends on how the engine is used, RPM expected, etc.

In general, I don't like to restrict the oil to the rockers at all. I want all the oil I can get to the springs to help cool them. But, pumping all that oil to the rockers from the standard "oil through the cam" method is not good---it can tend to starve the #2 and #4 main bearings and rod bearings. That's why I like to feed the rocker shafts from an external source---like the remote oil filter.

If you are in a "rules" situation where you can't oil the rockers externally, then I would want to use spring oilers in the valve cover and restrict the oil to the rockers---because under that situation you would only be oiling the rocker adjusting screws. In that case, I would restrict the oil between the head and cam. At least you would be getting adequate oil to the cam lobes. In that case I would use needle bearing rockers.

Many older race Mopar cams did have full grooves around the #2 and #4 cam journals for continuous oiling to the rockers. But, they also found rod bearing failures at lower RPMs(around 7000).
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  #77  
Old 04-03-2006, 10:55 AM
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does anybody have a good picture of an oil pan baffle for a 360 center sump, the mopar book doesn't really show anything and before i button up the bottom i'd like to put one in, i am using a windage tray but would like the extra protection.
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  #78  
Old 04-03-2006, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underdog39
does anybody have a good picture of an oil pan baffle for a 360 center sump, the mopar book doesn't really show anything and before i button up the bottom i'd like to put one in, i am using a windage tray but would like the extra protection.
Here's one I made for my center-sump 340, following the directions in the December 2002 Mopar Action article. It's pretty simple, but seems to work OK.

I used to be able to get the OEM oil light to come on with just hard braking, but haven't yet with this baffle in place. I've even installed a 30# oil light switch since then, too. Fingers crossed... At some point, I'll be getting a real road race pan with trap doors and all the bells/whistles, but I'll probably try autoXing first with this pan and maybe my Accusump if I get off my butt and rebuild/plumb the thing.

FWIW, the file is about 140KB, (RIGHT CLICK SAVE AS, or just click the link) and should completely fill all but the corners of an 8.5x11" piece of paper when you print it. The baffle will wedge in to place, and you tack it down enough that it won't get sucked up in to the crank... You'll also have to tweak the dip stick location, but mine ballparked where you see the marks. Push the center down in a tad to help drainback, and to prevent sloshing out that much more.

Clair
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  #79  
Old 04-24-2006, 01:48 AM
Thudpucker Thudpucker is offline
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Sanborn you remind me of the old days with the Ford 60's.
Go on boy, go like hell, dont let the bastards catch you....

I'll get up your war for a weekend race sometime.

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  #80  
Old 07-17-2006, 12:32 AM
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Default crossover tube?

i have a question about a crossover tube to feed the left gally from the right galley. i have seen a crossover tube installed and the front main brg feed on the right side is plugged and then they feed the front main from the left galley is this better than feeding the right galley with a second line from the front. and are the 45deg an fittings installed in the galleys for the crossover tube at an angle or straight down into the galleys
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  #81  
Old 07-18-2006, 08:05 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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In the standard block, all mains are fed from the main oil galley on the right side of the block. The left side feeds only the lifters.

The only reason to feed the left side galley with a tube from the right side is to help improve the oil flow to the front main. The stock system oils the front main AND then goes to feed the left side oil galley.

You need to keep the front main being oiled from the right side.
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  #82  
Old 10-07-2006, 10:53 PM
sickhemi sickhemi is offline
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Default external head oiling

sanborn i'm running roller rockers with head oiling and want to oil them externally where do you run the lines from and where do you tap into the head.alo what size lines do you use to supply oil to the shafts
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  #83  
Old 10-07-2006, 11:20 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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What brand of rockers are you using?
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  #84  
Old 10-07-2006, 11:48 PM
sickhemi sickhemi is offline
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i'm running mopar large port commando heads with w2 style harland sharp rockers on a 59 degree r3 block
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  #85  
Old 10-08-2006, 09:12 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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The response will take some time---for my feeble mind to work!

I will get back to you around 1PM today.
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  #86  
Old 10-08-2006, 04:44 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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I don't know anything about Commando heads---but I assume they have five rocker arm stands like standard Mopar heads. So I will describe what I would do to standard heads.

What we are doing is changing the standard, intermittent oiling of the rockers to full time oiling of the rockers. So, the oil feed lines don't need to be large. We have used #3 Braided brake lines from the remote oil filter mount to the back on one head with a "tee" and another #3 brake line going from the "tee" to the other head.

First, the standard oiling passage in each head should be blocked.

We want to change the oiling passage from the #2 or #4 rocker stand(standard oiling) to the rearmost rocker stand on each head. To do this, we create a passage by drilling, at a angle, downward through the rearmost rocker stand to intersect a hole we drill straight forward in the rear of each head. Usually we can use an existing drilled boss in the rear of the head and enlarge it and tap it to 1/8NPT. The hole we drill downward doesn't need to be large, .080" is plenty large.

You may want to give yourself a good machined surface to start your drilling. You can do this by counterboring down the threads that hold your rocker shaft---about 1/4" down. If you do this counterbore, it will be easier to drill your .080" hole.

Did I give you enough info? If not, get back to me.
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  #87  
Old 10-11-2006, 10:13 PM
sickhemi sickhemi is offline
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the commando heads use the rocker stands like the w5s and have a w5 wide intake port with no pushrod pinch. thanks for the info sanborn your posts are great!!
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  #88  
Old 10-11-2006, 10:26 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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I would love to know how those Commando heads work for you! Just for my general knowledge.
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  #89  
Old 11-10-2006, 10:48 AM
THOR25 THOR25 is offline
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Default Sanborn Help Please

Hello
I am changing from chevy to mopar this next year and need a little help please. i run 1/2 mile dirt track,rules pretty much stock,mopar 370 cid,9.3 to 1 comp. flat tappet cam,4 br. carb. Heres where i need some help,they gave me the chose of MAGNUM heads with mopar performance intake.OR the earlier 360 heads with 2.02 1.60 valves,performer rpm intake,OR stock intake with 1" spacer. thanks larry
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  #90  
Old 11-11-2006, 07:23 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Larry, practically all my experience is with W2s, W7s, W8s and some with W9s. My experience with "X" heads is almost 30 years old. I wish I could be of help!

Can anyone else help?
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