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  #31  
Old 05-29-2003, 11:11 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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RRRRascal, I have never actually reverse flowed an engine. Thought about it, but we have always been able to get the engine to cool the traditional way.

Reverse cooling has some of the same problems as traditional cooling flow. We spend a lot of time getting CONSISTENT temperatures in a cylinder head. Inconsistent temps lead to combustion chamber hot spots and just as important-iron cracks. I think if you reversed flowed an engine you would need to distribute the water throughout the cylinder head with a water manifold in order to get consistent cooling of the head. Then you would have the same problem of getting the water out of the block without creating hot spots. True, the water would be cooler going into the head---------.
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  #32  
Old 05-30-2003, 04:24 PM
CudaMike CudaMike is offline
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Question

Sanborn, what would be your suggestions for an Edelbrock headed, mild 408 stroker, to improve cooling? We're talking maybe 425 HP or so, and 5800 rpms max. I know much of what you've related here is particularly for circle track, but what is good for street/strip? Also, I would being looking at 80/20 stuff, 80% of results for 20% of the cost type deal. Also, the engine isn't built yet, so I am not talking about any particular cooling problem I'm having now.
Also, are Stewart stage 1 pumps any good? Or are they the same as everyone elses?
Thanks
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  #33  
Old 05-30-2003, 08:03 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Cuda, most of the changes made to a SB applies equally well to a street/strip application as to an oval track application. Forcing the water primarily past the exhaust valves, removing potential air/ steam pockets, eliminating cavitation applies to anything. The big difference is the speed of the water pump. On the street the average engine speed is much lower so sometimes the water pump should run faster in relation to engine crankshaft speed. On our engines(up to 9000RPM), we drive our pump 33% slower than crankshaft. For the street, you may need to drive the pump at 100% crank speed- or a little faster/slower.

I have not had any experience with Stewart Stage 1 pumps. We have worked with Stage 3(or 4, I can't remember). The reason I chose it was the larger pump shaft(3/4"), larger bearings, the billet fan flange, the billet impellor, etc. You pay for performance, you must decide what you need in order to do the job you want. But, for street/strip you probably don't need a pump to perform like we do.

Hope I have answered to your satisfaction!
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  #34  
Old 05-30-2003, 11:11 PM
mopower440 mopower440 is offline
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sanborn, this is cool, how about info on big blocks?
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  #35  
Old 05-31-2003, 01:30 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Mopower440, the same basic techniques apply to big blocks. There aren't any holes along the bottom edge of the block and heads. You must drill them. No big deal! Just get a reference point from the head studs in the block, use the same reference dimensions to drill the heads. Block off the water in the back of the block the same way as the small blocks, etc. You must bring the water out of the back of the head instead of the intake manifold.

Now, to the water pump. I must admit, I have always used a GM pump on a BB. Started doing this back in the dark ages(around 85) when we ran a BB Late Model (at the Duck and Winchester).

Heck, you are only a few miles away. If you have questions, come over to Shelbyville. I will be glad to help.
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  #36  
Old 06-04-2003, 12:54 AM
mr_340 mr_340 is offline
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Default Magnum Water Pump and Cover

Great thread Sanborn (as usual). Has anyone looked at a magnum front timing cover? They have the flow paths filled in instead of the big open area of the old covers. The opening looks like a "spiral galaxy" with two arms coming off the center (for a lack of a better description). It looks like it would deliver more even flow from side-to-side. I don't think they would work directly since the Magnum pump seems to run backwards since it runs off the smooth side of the serpentine belt. But the concept could be copied over to the old covers by filling in with epoxy or welding in aluminum pieces.
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  #37  
Old 09-16-2003, 07:04 PM
Rapid Robert
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Sanborn can you post a pic on how you are routing water to cool between the ex valves on the side of the block & some more info. thank you!
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  #38  
Old 09-18-2003, 06:18 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Go back to page #2 of this thread, look at the photo titled "block#2". You will see a right angled, blue aluminum fitting screwed into the block. That is how we feed the water into the side of the block. It is located 1 1/4" down from the deck, 3/4" behind(toward the back of the block) the center stud centerline. The threads are 1/2" NPT. The hose feeding the center of the block is #10 (1/2" ID). The location was as close as I felt comfortable drilling to the center of the block. The center stud boss cast into the block gets into the way.

The "ideal" location for center water feed is into the cylinder head. But, W2s get real thin there and I don't want to crack a head. So, we drill the block instead.

The center water feed comes from a #10 hose fitting in the timing chain cover.
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  #39  
Old 09-24-2003, 09:55 PM
Rapid Robert
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sanborn good details! since I will be running either stock 360 heads or 308's should I feed water into the head since they aren't W2's or into the block using your pics & info. Rapid Robert
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  #40  
Old 09-25-2003, 06:49 PM
mightymouse mightymouse is offline
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The old man's computer is on the fritz (I think he ran out of nuts for the squirrels). This is his son and my recommendation is to place the water line into the block just as described in the post. Two reasons.....
1. interchangeability of cylinder heads without re-plumbing
2. the line into the block moves the line out of the way of the exhaust (manifold or header)

Braided hose is not necessary. Brass fittings and heater hose are acceptable substitutes. (saves $$$$$) If you have any additional questions, please ask. The biggest problem we have these days is getting enough heat into the engines but that is a nicer challenge to face than the alternative.
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  #41  
Old 10-07-2003, 03:32 PM
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Default Flowkooler disc kit

Great stuff Sanborn! I'm not a racer, but I like to run my street car pretty hard. Your oil and water posts have been very interesting and helpful. Someone mentioned the Flowkooler pump on page 2, and I tried to make sure nobody else already mentioned what I'm about to... Summit sells Flowkooler kits for $5.95 that consist of a disc and what appear to be pop rivets -look under cooling, then water pumps and accessories if you go to the Summit site. They don't do a very good job of listing what's available for Mopar, but I know they make a kit for 70 and up stock small block pumps. Has anyone used one of these kits?
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  #42  
Old 10-07-2003, 03:47 PM
mightymouse mightymouse is offline
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One suggestion that I might mention. If you do not have access to a tig welder, an acceptable alternative is a two part epoxy. Under streetable conditions, this will work fine. Under racing conditions, generally circle track, tig welding the plate would be better due to greater amounts of rpm fluctuations (2000-9000). Otherwise, even though you are quite hard on your street car, the epoxy will hold up. Good luck.
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  #43  
Old 10-18-2003, 11:06 PM
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So, is it safe to assume that an engine treated to these mods will be more tolerant of higher compression and more favorable timing and jetting vs. a lesser cooling system?
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  #44  
Old 10-20-2003, 12:58 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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You ask a loaded question! We generally use engines with max compression, tuned at about 90% of the ragged edge, turn RPM up where every we need it, etc. So the purpose for the cooling techniques is to manage the temperature under those conditions.

But yes, proper cooling will let you use higher compression, closer to max tune, etc. but, it doesn't take the place of proper attention to detail, equal mixture to all cylinders, etc.
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  #45  
Old 10-21-2003, 09:59 AM
355 racer 355 racer is offline
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Help Question

Sanborn,
My block is a 9" deck height, and I have filled the cylinder walls 3 1/2" high w/ Moroso block filler, I have 2 1/2" open depth left. If I follow your instructions and drill out the block for installation of the two water outlets on the side of the block that are plumbed into the timing chain cover, and block off the 1" opening in the back of the block, will I get enough water running thru, and get sufficient cooling? Whew, that was a long sentence. My W-2 racing head has only one set of the small holes shown in your picture of the NASCAR R2 heads. Should I be entertaining the idea of drilling the other holes also? My heads are already drilled 3/8" along the bottom for the water. Thank you, Harry
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  #46  
Old 10-22-2003, 06:16 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Good Morning Harry:
I assume you were looking at the photo of the "R Block"- painted black with the large water manifold on the side.

The water fitting is a #16 and the passages into the block are 1/2"NPT. There are actually three holes drilled into the side of the block but I only used the back two holes due to space problems. I still put water into the block in the front as well. I TIG welded the #16 fittings to the timing cover. It takes some work with rotary files to smooth the passages- but worth it. If you build something like that you will flow enough water to cool properly.

Since you are using an R3 block with siamize cylinder walls you need to drill the small 3/16" holes in the block and heads if they are not already there. Why? The siamize cylinder walls totally block water flow between the cylinder walls. The water must flow around the ends of the block to get from the bottom side of the block to the top side. And, without the holes you allow air pockets to occur between the cylinder walls. The 3/16" holes between the cylinders eliminate the air pockets. Use the FelPro gaskets as templates for hole location. Larger holes would be OK- Like 1/4" size if you wanted to flow more water.

If you have any problems- let me know.
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  #47  
Old 10-22-2003, 10:22 AM
355 racer 355 racer is offline
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Smile

Good morning to you to,
Sanborn, I am NOT using the siamese block. The aluminum timing chain cover already has the 1/2"NPT threaded outlets. Why would I want to tig weld fittings? I was planning on using a 1/2" ID ,90 deg. AN fitting on the timing chain end, and also the block ends. I have already drilled the intake manifold, and used 1/2"ID barbed fittings for use w/ heater hose, double clamped. It appears in the photos that you have a bleeder fitting of some kind, halfway along this hose, is this for air release possibly?
The heads only have 3/16" holes drilled between the two center cylinders, and the lower water holes come pre-drilled to 3/8". I will drill the additional 3/16" holes if you recommend. I don't have the block here, it is at the chassis shop, being fitted to the new frame, so I don't recall if the holes are drilled in the block or not. I was just wondering since it is not a siamese block, weather these would have to be drilled, or is it something I should do regardless. thanks for your reply, Harry
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  #48  
Old 10-22-2003, 01:31 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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If you are NOT using the siamese block then you don't need to drill the additional small holes between the cylinders. Why did I do it? Because the heads already had them drilled and the block had them drilled in the center-I thought "What the Heck" and drilled the additional holes. Mighty Mouse says I do too much sometimes anyway-Why disappoint him!

We used a stock timing chain cover; so, I had the option to use whatever size I wanted. And the hole in the front of my block was very small-about 3/8" in diameter. If you use the 1/2" hose, then check the opening in the front of the block to see if it is large enough. You need to flow into the block openings = a 1" diameter hole(which is the output of your pump).
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  #49  
Old 11-03-2003, 11:20 AM
355 racer 355 racer is offline
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Default CONFUSED!!

Sanborn, This Dutchman is still confused over several issues. First,in your last reply, the second paragraph, is confusing. my aluminum timing chain cover is pre-drilled for a 1" NPT outlet on both sides of the cover. I thought I was supposed to plumb this into the side of the block, ( after having drilled and tapped 2 holes, each a 1/2" NPT thread to the block ) using a 1/2"ID hose. This to be done on both sides of the block., as it is I will have to drop the 1" NPT down to fit the 1/2" hose. You also said that you were retaining the original flow thru the heads in the front of the block, am I reading this right? We are now flowing water as originally designed into the front of the block, plus we are adding flow to each side of the block. Is this correct? Thank you, Harry
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  #50  
Old 11-03-2003, 02:42 PM
355 racer 355 racer is offline
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Question AND ANOTHER QUESTION

You also talk about a #16 fitting you welded to your cover, I thought you were using #10 fittings. Please clarify to this dumbkuff!! Thank you again. Harry
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  #51  
Old 11-03-2003, 07:40 PM
mightymouse mightymouse is offline
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Harry, let me clarify a few confusing aspects of the previous pictures. The engine with the #10 fittings intp the side of the block is our limited with a stock deck height (9.56). The #16 water fittings my dad speaks of is a 9" deck R block. With the shorter deck height, the water passage into the front of the block is reduced to around .375" thus the need for the larger capacity into the side. A block that retains its stock deck height need only a #10 or so primarily to provide a source of fresh coolant to the hottest part of the engine (between the center two exhaust valves). I hope this helps to clarify your question. If not, let me know and I will try to do better or take some additional photos for you....................................Jeff
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  #52  
Old 11-03-2003, 10:59 PM
355 racer 355 racer is offline
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Biggrin Thank you!!!

NOW I UNDERSTAND. Thank you for clarifying. I am just trying to see what the parts look like in size, before I buy. I am using an R-3 , 9" deck block, that has been filled 3 1/2" deep w/ block filler, due to a few "blowups", that have removed a "few" chuncks of steel at the bottom of a couple of different cylinders. This was an un-intentional way of reducing block wt. We have found and hopefully are correcting the self inflicted problems. My main concern in the water dept. is that I only have 2 1/2" of depth left in the block for water. I intend to use two 1/2"NPT holes in each side of block, w/#10 fittings to the timing chain cover, ( one will be an elbow out of block to a 't' fitting, and continuing on to the timing cover outlet which is 1" NPT). I am assuming a #16 fitting which you say you use on the 9" deck is about 1"NPT, is this close, and would you still suggest I go the #16 route, or the #10 route. This is my only remaining question. Thanks a lot for your help. Harry
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  #53  
Old 11-03-2003, 11:54 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Harry, if the normal water passage in the front of the block is quite small(3/8"-1/2" in diameter); then, I would use the #16 fittings/hose to the side of the block. Or, a 3/4" ID water hose/fittings would be cheaper-and work just as well.

If the hole in the front of the block is standard size(about 1" in diameter); then, the #10 would be OK to use to the side of the block.

What we are trying to do here is ensure adequate flow of water from the pump into and through the block and finally into the heads.

If you get enough water to flow through the block; you will then have the nice problem of having to seal off the front nose of your car to keep water temperature up high enough under race conditions.
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  #54  
Old 11-05-2003, 09:50 AM
355 racer 355 racer is offline
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Wink THANK YOU!!

I knew sooner or later it would all sink in. Thanks guys. Harry
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  #55  
Old 11-05-2003, 11:11 PM
Randal8 Randal8 is offline
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355 Racer, I see your running w2's on a 9" deck. I'm curious as to what intake you're using and are you fabricating spacers to mount it?
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  #56  
Old 11-06-2003, 10:14 AM
355 racer 355 racer is offline
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The intake is a supposedly now stock aluminum from MP. It was developed for the W-2 48deg. race heads. I wouldn't normally use any spacers to mount it. Let me explain "normally". At the time we built the motor, ( 1999 ), I could only get the 47cc heads, and the intake wasn't made yet. Our compression rules are 9:1 ,I used dished pistons to cut down on compression, plus a shim head gasket in addition to our "thicker" head gasket. When we received the intake MP suggested we use, it was the 59deg. intake. If we would have machined to fit , the mounting material wouldn't have been sufficient to bolt to the heads. It was no where close to fitting, and was returned to MP, seems they hadn't the right one yet for general sale. In December 99, MP ran off 32 intakes for the NASCAR stuff, we received ours in Jan. 2000 from the initial shipment . Since we shimmed out the heads, we simply doubled up on the intake gasket set, used red silicone on the ends, and all sealed nicely. The part # for intake is P4532966 , listed for $268.25, and $190.16 net. I just looked in the 2002 MP catalog and that # is not listed, it may have to be ordered from Petty or Evernham. ( Ray originally had MP ship us our unit ). It may well be listed now under another part #, I just don't know. Harry
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  #57  
Old 11-08-2003, 01:07 PM
JMB JMB is offline
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Sanborn, is the water neck & adaptor shown on the intake.jpeg a piece you have fabricated or are they store bought? If you bought them who makes them?
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  #58  
Old 11-29-2003, 11:04 AM
355 racer 355 racer is offline
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Wink Water Neck

I use a very similar water neck / adaptor as shown in Sanborn's picture. The "new" 48 deg. intake is the same water gasket spacing as a chevy, therefore many varations are available from many mfgr's. The one we use is a Moroso unit. MP has incorporated common design changes into some of their new products, like the cheby bolt pattern on the neck. Harry
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  #59  
Old 01-01-2004, 03:52 PM
355 racer 355 racer is offline
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Question 1" holes

Charles, HAPPY NEW YEAR. I still have a few questions on the cooling. The 1" holes in the front & back of block. From everything I have read, it seems that the 4 1" holes are blocked off completely ,front and rear, and that you were using freeze plugs to do this, not drilling and tapping for a 'threaded' plug, and then you drilled a 1/8" hole in the two rear freeze plugs used, so as not to trap air. IS THIS CORRECT? If so, then I can finish the cooling work.
The 'aluminum baffle you have covering the holes over the camshaft are used for cutting down on 'oil slinging'. Correct? Is there any reason you can't screw-in pipe plugs?, or is there 'breathing ' area under the baffle plate you want to keep open. Please elaborate on this item of interest.
'THE OLD MAN'
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  #60  
Old 01-02-2004, 09:51 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Happy New Year Harry!!!!

You are correct about the 1/8" holes drilled in the freeze plugs-they are to prevent air pockets.

The aluminum plates you refer to is to block off oil splash. But that is for a standard type block-in this case an early "X" block. You are using an "R" block which already has the top blocked off(with cast iron). I don't think you need to do anything-plug the holes if you want-but I don't think it's mandatory. Actually do you have enough oil "drain back" holes in the lifter valley area?
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