Which way to go - Moparchat

69clone · #1 07-29-2010, 01:24 AM

Hey guys,
I'm Nick, I just joined been looking around here for a few days. I'm 18 and enjoy drag racing and the good old muscle cars you guys probably grew up with.
Anyways I have a 69' Satellite, Roadrunner clone. That has it's original 318, The previous owner did a mild build on it, 360 heads, mild cam, headers, 4bbl, intake. I'm guessing it hopefully makes around 300hp but that's not enough for me. (Used to my dads mustang runs high 11's) I would like to get this around there but still be a decent daily driver. I know I'm looking at about 500hp or so. I've been having a problem deciding do i go big block (find a motor,trans,etc) or stay sb. Whats the best bang for the buck kinda thing. A guy i know told me to get a 440 stroke it to 500" and do a mild build. Is that the cheapest way? Someone else said just turbo the 318 and a little shot on it, But i just don't know. What would you do or recommend? I'm really leaning towards big block but just looking for opinions.
Thank you guys,
~Nick

fox · #2 07-29-2010, 07:24 AM

I would say since you want it as a daily driver too, my advice is to go find a 400 ( big block ) and build a stroker.
Even if you just use a 440 crank, 451 cu. in., and aftermarket heads, you could get there. you need a set of heads that flow 300 cfm@28 inches.
Stock heads can get there but will have to go to a good porting service, and they are old heads.

But if you want to stay small block, it is really cool to build a stroker 360 to 408 and beat up on some of the big block cars!
Many time I have seen mopar small blocks -- built RIGHT-- beat bigger engines in other brands in the quarter!!! A few times the guys I'm with have said lets go see this dodge that beat my friend. We go over and they say the guy has a big block motor. But the distributor is in the back!!!

You have some good speed shops in your area, go ask them.

69clone · #3 07-29-2010, 06:41 PM

Hey fox, Thanks for the info.
I've head people favor the 400 over the 440 like you mentioned, Just wondering why that is? I see you mentioned the daily driver thing does it get better mileage?
Right now i have a 8 1/4" rear i assume I'll need at least a 8 3/4" to hold up with that power?
Thanks,
~Nick

peg leg · #4 07-30-2010, 04:22 PM

Small blocks have many advantages. Mileage, weight, fit, handling and available parts. As said above, a 408 small block with X heads, airgap intake, roller cam, 750 carb and Mopar ignition is about all the fun you can have with clothes on.
Your 81/4 rear should hold up for a while, but you will be over 400 HP, which is all you need to wreak havoc on most modern factory hot rods.

69clone · #5 07-30-2010, 06:46 PM

Thanks,
I'm just wondering if i'm on a budget (although i most likely will be slowly building this over the fall til spring so that will give me a few extra grand) It just seems like buying a 360 block, a stroker,heads,etc i could have about the same hp as a big block and it wouldn't cost as much? I understand the gas mileage, it would be nice since it is my daily driver but i didn't buy it for the gas mileage.

Cudadrag · #6 07-31-2010, 04:31 PM

The reason why the 400 is favored over the 440 in the big block world is the 400 has the largest bore Chrysler ever made and is a shorter deck motor. This has advantages. By matching it with a 440 crank and bore 30-35 over you get the 451. If you compare a 400 stroked 451 and a 440 451 (440 bored 50-55 over) the 400 stroked 451 will outperform the 440 451. Make sense? The reason is the 400 451 (because of the lower block deck height) components inside are shorter thus lighter. And the main bearings are smaller thus less friction. Shorter Rods, shorter piston height, shorter push rods, smaller bearings all mean more and faster RPM response. I have had both and the 440 cannot compete. (At least cubic inch to cubic inch.) It's really like having a big block that acts a lot like a small block. Now of course you can stroke a 440 farther than a 400 thus out cubic inch the 400. But cube to cube the 400 wins.

This is true with small blocks. But small blocks are hampered by small cubic inch limits. I truly believe the 400 451 build is the best Mopar build. (When considering dollar value.) You can do this build all with stock parts that you can find in a salvage yard. (But I would recommend upgrading some of the parts.) Most stroker's need an aftermarket stroker crank. (About $1500) This uses an existing 440 Mopar crank. (The forged steel crank is highly recommended.)

Another note is this same build can be done with a 383 (You end up with a 432) A little less cubes but same faster RPM response if you wish to keep your 1969 theme. (The 400 did not come out until 1972.)

Even my Chevy friends say this is a clever Mopar build. And for a Chevy lover that is huge. I'm not sure why Chevy lovers hate Mopars so much. And don't even get them started with Fords.

69clone · #7 09-17-2010, 12:23 AM

Thanks, That makes sense.
So dollar to dollar it seems like b block is the way to go. At least to get the motor looking online I'm seeing most 400's are cheaper then 383's and alot cheaper then most 440's in my area. I found a local mopar guy with a complete 400 for $250. compared to a $2000 440... not sure on the year yet, Does the year really matter much? thinner walls? lower comp ratio? Also for the best bang for my buck would i be better off spending the money on the stroker or using it somewhere else? I guess what I'm asking is what would be more hp/tq effected top end or bottom? Sorry i'm new to all this stuff, trying to learn.

~Nick

DartGT66 · #8 09-21-2010, 02:27 AM

The 400 hasnät got the "performance heritage" of the muscle year engines. Basically itäs just like the 383, only with bigger cylinder diameter. Its biggest performance disadvantage is the low compression ratio from the factory. The year doesn't matter, they are practically all the same. To fix the low CR, you need new pistons, and at that point it's easy to build a stroker for only a little more money. Several sources offer decent stroker kits, for example 440 source and muscle motors. I have used both, and think that the Muscle Motors kit may be of better value.

Your car isn't the smallest or lightest one around, so what you want with a daily driver is an engine that makes very good torque and power at realtively low rpm. That way you don't need extremely steep gears or high stall torque converters for good performance; it saves money to justify the price of the stroker kit. you can build a 512 out of a 400 with a 4.25" stroke crank. That's a good combo that will help you reach your goal. Still has a decent piston stability with 1.3"+ compression height, and yet very light internals = little power loss. For the factory size port, the 512 is a lot of cubes, and will make a lot of torque even with a relatively hot cam. Heads are very important, and if the heads need rebuilding it's a very good idea to switch to some "bolt on" aluminum heads. Edelbrock RPM or 440 source Stealths easily support the power level you are aiming at.

About a year ago we built a 383 4.25" stroker from 440 source parts that was externally stock (Stealth heads), it had a hydraulic flat tappet cam with 230 degrees at .050" lift and about 9.5:1 CR. It made 464 hp at 4900 rpm. That was through full exhaust with factory exhaust manifolds.

Cudadrag · #9 10-05-2010, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DartGT66

it saves money to justify the price of the stroker kit. you can build a 512 out of a 400 with a 4.25" stroke crank. That's a good combo that will help you reach your goal. Still has a decent piston stability with 1.3"+ compression height, and yet very light internals = little power loss.

I use 1.3" C.H. piston with 6.756" rods for my 451 build. (3.75" stroke crank) This is very close to zero deck. What rod is used for the 512? I'm guessing with the 4.25" stroke crank one would use 6.25" rod? Chevy Rod?

Cudadrag · #10 10-05-2010, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 69clone

Does the year really matter much? thinner walls? lower comp ratio? Also for the best bang for my buck would i be better off spending the money on the stroker or using it somewhere else? I guess what I'm asking is what would be more hp/tq effected top end or bottom?

The idea with increasing low end torque by using a stroker motor is to get that heavy car going fast on the lowend without having to run a lower gear in the rear which will drastically effect top-end speed. (As well as making it less streetable) A 500-550 horse 451 with a 3.73 rear gear (28" rear tire) will give decent launch capabilites with a more than enough top speed. (about 130 MPH at 6000 rpm.) A 500-550 horse 451 should max at 7000 rpm (with a solid lift cam.) That is 150 mph. If you wish to be faster in the 1/4 run a 4.10 rear gear. This will bleed off about 10-12 MPH on the top-end but you will feel it on the starting launch with most likely better 1/4 mile time.

DartGT66 · #11 10-05-2010, 03:24 AM

The 4.25" stroke uses 6.535" chevy rods and the same compression height piston as the 451.

69clone · #12 10-06-2010, 11:18 PM

Thanks Dart!
Sorry the engine has been held off for alittle bit something came up, so trying to save up more before i jump in. I really enjoy torque, rather reach the speed limit quicker then being able to go 150mph and never actually going that fast. I saw the 512ci but is there any difference between the 451 or 512 as far as reliability goes? If i remember right they're both the same price, Would i have to do more machine work? I don't think the 512 crank fits a stock block?

DartGT66 · #13 10-07-2010, 01:12 AM

There si no difference in about anything. They use the same pistons, but the heads and cam pretty much dictates the rpm level, and the piston speed shouls remain about the same with same parts in both combos. Since the chevy rod journals and rods are physically smaller, you donät have to do at least a lot of extra machining. You may have to clearance the bores a little for the rods, but you can do that with a die grinder and it's no big deal. With the longer stroke you don't need high stall converters or steep rear gears for good performance. It's just the same as with the 400 to 451, just that itäs taken further now that the parts are readily available.

steveramone · #14 10-07-2010, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DartGT66

The 400 hasnät got the "performance heritage" of the muscle year engines. Basically itäs just like the 383, only with bigger cylinder diameter. Its biggest performance disadvantage is the low compression ratio from the factory. The year doesn't matter, they are practically all the same. To fix the low CR, you need new pistons, and at that point it's easy to build a stroker for only a little more money. Several sources offer decent stroker kits, for example 440 source and muscle motors. I have used both, and think that the Muscle Motors kit may be of better value.

Your car isn't the smallest or lightest one around, so what you want with a daily driver is an engine that makes very good torque and power at realtively low rpm. That way you don't need extremely steep gears or high stall torque converters for good performance; it saves money to justify the price of the stroker kit. you can build a 512 out of a 400 with a 4.25" stroke crank. That's a good combo that will help you reach your goal. Still has a decent piston stability with 1.3"+ compression height, and yet very light internals = little power loss. For the factory size port, the 512 is a lot of cubes, and will make a lot of torque even with a relatively hot cam. Heads are very important, and if the heads need rebuilding it's a very good idea to switch to some "bolt on" aluminum heads. Edelbrock RPM or 440 source Stealths easily support the power level you are aiming at.

About a year ago we built a 383 4.25" stroker from 440 source parts that was externally stock (Stealth heads), it had a hydraulic flat tappet cam with 230 degrees at .050" lift and about 9.5:1 CR. It made 464 hp at 4900 rpm. That was through full exhaust with factory exhaust manifolds.

Hey guys loving this thread.
hello dart, was wondering how did that stroked 383 perform
And is it expensive to do?

DartGT66 · #15 10-08-2010, 01:21 AM

The car has just recently been completed, but the owner seems very happy with it. He's got some racing background, so he appreciates performance.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1utFs2uOvM...600/ppsm01.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1utFs2uOvM...600/ppsm02.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1utFs2uOvM...h/DSC08824.JPG

The cost wasn't calculated, but it used a 440 source stroke kit that was around 1500$, balancing and machine work of the block was done locally, 440 source heads were 900$, the rest was similar parts to any build up; you can do it for basic parts, or spend some money for "unneeded" luxory items like was done in this engine; billet timingchain set, stainless roller rockers, MSD distributor, Demon vacuum secondary carb etc. The head and block prep were done at home, so that didn't cost much, dyno session was 400$.

steveramone · #16 10-08-2010, 01:54 AM

You guys did a great job with the car.

Looks killer.

Thanks for the info on that 383 stroker.

Ill have to get it priced out and see what it costs.

How streetable is the engine? Idles good I'm assuming?

DartGT66 · #17 10-08-2010, 07:52 AM

It idles excellent, The cam is pretty tame for the cubic inches and the peak power was at 4900 rpm. The usable epm range is pretty much the same as in a stock 440 magnum, there is just over 100 hp more. It made 455 ft-lb already at 2000 rpm. Here is the dyno paper, although this one was with 1 3/4" headers, but through the same exhaust etc. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1utFs2uOvM...eltisarjat.jpg

Cudadrag · #18 10-08-2010, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DartGT66

The 4.25" stroke uses 6.535" chevy rods and the same compression height piston as the 451.

I wonder why my 451 is near zero deck. ( I mean .020 of zero deck) which is a problem with aluminum rods. BME recommends .060 to zero but that is for a blown alcohol motor. My hopes is 650-700 horse motor just won't flex the rods enough to become a problem.

It is obvoius to me my 400/451 block has been milled down a bit. (Which would explain why I had to do some mods with the intake) So the question I have is. How does one measure deck height? Cylinder height can be done assuming nothing was done on the bottom. The motor is pretty much put together so this is just for future reference.

steveramone · #19 10-17-2010, 10:03 PM

Thanks for all the info dart gt.
That stroker 383 looks like its going to
Be a killer motor.

Ill keep everybody informed of how the build
Goes, ill have to get some prices quoted to me.

DartGT66 · #20 10-18-2010, 03:08 AM

.020" shouldn't be a problem with current aluminum rods. Last summer we built a 588 wedge (4.625" stroke and 4.5" bore) with aluminum rods, and asked about the head to piston clearance. Were told that with an iron block .050" would be enough, and since we had an aluminum block could go zero deck with a .040" thick gasket. That's what we did, and that seems to be more than enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhu41AlNt0k