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  #1  
Old 04-09-2013, 04:20 AM
QCHemi QCHemi is offline
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Default Ford Funny Cars

Are the Ford teams actually using a Ford Hemi type engine? or are they just throwing on Ford Valve covers on the Chrysler type hemis? thanks
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  #2  
Old 04-09-2013, 10:34 AM
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They run Fords. http://www.nhraeventreg.com/ListEven...=LN1&cc=2&rn=4
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:14 PM
mopardude318 mopardude318 is offline
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yea, it tripped me out when i saw a ford hemi race car at a local car show...it tripped me out.
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:33 PM
QCHemi QCHemi is offline
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ok..so I will root against Force, Tasca and the rest even more than I had in the past....
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:31 PM
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If you see the so called Ford Funny Car/ Top Fuel engine it is a blatant rip off of the original Chrysler 426 Hemi.
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:36 AM
aarracer aarracer is offline
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If you care to search the history books. You will find that Ford redrilled a set of 426 Hemi head castings head bolt holes, to build the ford hemi boss 429 engines.

You must remember, there is absolutely nothing on any top fuel or fuel funny car engine from Ma Mopar or ford.
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:07 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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The Ford Boss 429 (Shotgun Motor) has nothing in common with any Mopar, not even remotely close.
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:14 PM
aarracer aarracer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kunkel View Post
The Ford Boss 429 (Shotgun Motor) has nothing in common with any Mopar, not even remotely close.
John

I would have to find it, but I have read where ford got a set of 426 head castings and drilled their own head bolt pattern to fit, in the original development of the boss 429.

Of course it could have been a mopar person writing it, lol.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:12 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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Absolutely not true, the Ford Boss head is as much different as a hemi head can be. There really isn't much need to copy the Chrysler Hemi head, it's not that good.
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:48 AM
aarracer aarracer is offline
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Got a little action here anyway heh, lol.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:07 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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The 429 Ford has huge round ports with canted individual mounted rocker arms, the 426 Mopar has rectangular ports and shaft-mounted rockers.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...EwBQ&dur=14110
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:47 PM
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The Ford "Boss 500" Engine used by John Force & others is not a development of the Boss 429, but is a new design that is a clone of the 426 Hemi Fuel engines used by most teams in Top Fuel & Funny Car. If I can find a picture of it I will post it.
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Old 04-12-2013, 07:33 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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NHRA has very strict limits as far as the TF /Fc engine design goes, there is not a huge possibility of being much different than the other. The design limits are pretty much based on the Chrysler 426 Hemi style.
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Old 04-12-2013, 05:15 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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There have been many discussions on whether or not a different engine would perform better in Top Fuel but the Hemi remains the choice partly because it's easier to maintain in the limited time between rounds.

A new "clean sheet of paper" design could perform better but it would be expensive to develop and only the "high buck" teams could afford them so NHRA tries to keep the playing field level by restricting the choices.
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Old 04-12-2013, 07:20 PM
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They ALL are based on the Chyrsler 426 but Ford and Toyota whined about marketing. http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php...-engine-credit
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  #16  
Old 04-14-2013, 07:59 AM
chirorod chirorod is offline
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Nice work, all. This has been very informative, and I have enjoyed reading everyone's input. I was inspired to google hemi, and found that the first hemi was a 1905 engine. The design has a lot of virtues.
As was said, NHRA rules mandate engine use, so anything new is probably not possible in at least the near future. But another reason would be that it would be a huge gamble to try to improve on the incredible horsepower out of the current design. Must be 7000 or 8000 horsepower. Incredible! Just think about having a quarter of that in our street machines!
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  #17  
Old 04-16-2013, 07:44 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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I don't have to think about that. Just jump in to the car and turn the ignition key! A 600 or 800 hp street machine is still a lot of fun. A 1600 hp one has not much use, you can't drive it at full throttle anywhere. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNdlffPF0Lk
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  #18  
Old 04-23-2013, 07:29 PM
Jamze Duncan Jamze Duncan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DartGT66 View Post
There really isn't much need to copy the Chrysler Hemi head, it's not that good.
Really Dart? Since when did you become an expert on Hemi's? Just because you can't make one run, doesn't mean no one else can.
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  #19  
Old 04-30-2013, 09:58 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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If I were to design a Hemi head, I surely wouldn't design it the way the 426 Hemi is designed. It's propably not that it's a bad piece, or that you can't make power with it (i can't, but that's another story...), it's just that it's a comromise and oldish philosophy. Compromise because it's basically just a "retrofit" head in the first place, a wedge to hemi conversion. It shows mainly in the valvetrain. And a compromise because it has to fit somewhere. That can be seen in the exhaust port and the port heights. And an old design that can be seen on the port size. It doesn't mena that it couldn't make power. Looking at the BB wedge design, ehads etc., it's a miracle that it even runs!
At this point I have one Hemi build up coming next winter, a street 572 with decent parts. I'll do the headwork myself and have been able to influence the other part choices too, we'll see how that one turns out.
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  #20  
Old 04-30-2013, 10:53 AM
Jamze Duncan Jamze Duncan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DartGT66 View Post
it's just that it's a comromise and oldish philosophy. Compromise because it's basically just a "retrofit" head in the first place, a wedge to hemi conversion. It shows mainly in the valvetrain. And a compromise because it has to fit somewhere. That can be seen in the exhaust port and the port heights. And an old design that can be seen on the port size. It doesn't mena that it couldn't make power. Looking at the BB wedge design, ehads etc., it's a miracle that it even runs!
Dart, you are just stating the obvious here. In '64 the '26 still had to fit in a standard production vehicle.

At this point I have one Hemi build up coming next winter, a street 572 with decent parts. I'll do the headwork myself and have been able to influence the other part choices too, we'll see how that one turns out.
Why even start on one, with the negative attitude you have?
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  #21  
Old 05-02-2013, 04:10 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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I don't know, people want me to build their engines and I'm happy to help?
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  #22  
Old 05-02-2013, 09:44 AM
Jamze Duncan Jamze Duncan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DartGT66 View Post
I don't know, people want me to build their engines and I'm happy to help?
Dart there's an old saying: "With help like you, who needs enemies?"
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  #23  
Old 05-02-2013, 01:23 PM
Cudadrag Cudadrag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamze Duncan View Post
Dart there's an old saying: "With help like you, who needs enemies?"
Wow. And I thought we had a long winter here in Minnesota? More snow tonight they are saying

I am pondering with the idea of putting a 540 hemi in my Road Runner build. Knowlton of Knowlton Thunderheads here in East Bethel MN (Who I believe is by far the best Mopar head guy in the State) has one for sale. A mild mechanical roller .550 lift 770 HP, pump gas, single 1050 dom carb that is streetable. The problem with hemis is that they are so damn touchy. With a Wedge you can up the cam swap springs and you will increase power. (Assuming heads are max ported to support the air increase.) With the wedge you get what you get. With a hemi you seem to upset the whole geometry of the setup and can/will most likely go backwards. I would love the idea of building one from scratch but just don’t know enough of the Do's and don'ts.

I just can't afford too much experimenting. Can easily go broke cleaning up after my fuc%ups.
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:53 PM
aarracer aarracer is offline
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Originally Posted by Cudadrag View Post
Wow. And I thought we had a long winter here in Minnesota? More snow tonight they are saying

I am pondering with the idea of putting a 540 hemi in my Road Runner build. Knowlton of Knowlton Thunderheads here in East Bethel MN (Who I believe is by far the best Mopar head guy in the State) has one for sale. A mild mechanical roller .550 lift 770 HP, pump gas, single 1050 dom carb that is streetable. The problem with hemis is that they are so damn touchy. With a Wedge you can up the cam swap springs and you will increase power. (Assuming heads are max ported to support the air increase.) With the wedge you get what you get. With a hemi you seem to upset the whole geometry of the setup and can/will most likely go backwards. I would love the idea of building one from scratch but just don’t know enough of the Do's and don'ts.

I just can't afford too much experimenting. Can easily go broke cleaning up after my fuc%ups.
What would you want to experiment with on a proven 770 hp pump gas engine.

Why would you want to experiment on a proven 770 hp pump gas engine.


I would think the only experiment needed would be behind the engine!
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:36 PM
Cudadrag Cudadrag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aarracer View Post
What would you want to experiment with on a proven 770 hp pump gas engine.

Why would you want to experiment on a proven 770 hp pump gas engine.


I would think the only experiment needed would be behind the engine!
I meant experimenting with a clean build. Your right. I wouldn't touch the 540. Which is a little out of my norm. I suppose I could copy Knowlton's build. I'm sure he would share. (Assuming I had him do the head work.) I would use different parts on the bottom end that had worked well for me with a B-block build. But the whole valvetrain? I would need to be the student.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:09 PM
moeflo moeflo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DartGT66 View Post
If I were to design a Hemi head, I surely wouldn't design it the way the 426 Hemi is designed. It's propably not that it's a bad piece, or that you can't make power with it (i can't, but that's another story...), it's just that it's a comromise and oldish philosophy. Compromise because it's basically just a "retrofit" head in the first place, a wedge to hemi conversion. It shows mainly in the valvetrain. And a compromise because it has to fit somewhere. That can be seen in the exhaust port and the port heights. And an old design that can be seen on the port size. It doesn't mena that it couldn't make power. Looking at the BB wedge design, ehads etc., it's a miracle that it even runs!
At this point I have one Hemi build up coming next winter, a street 572 with decent parts. I'll do the headwork myself and have been able to influence the other part choices too, we'll see how that one turns out.
All very true if limited to dated OEM hemis. Like 906 or 452 heads, nobody uses those heads on a serious effort engine unless the rules demand them. The compromised valvetrain geometry is all fixed in the pure race stuff.The cams are way-raised, and the lifters relocated. But, it is still high-dollar pure race stuff.
If you climb the horse power ladder high enough, a point is reached where anything else doesn't make economic sense. (Note how many are in boosted P/M cars now.) At that point, maybe 3K, or more HP (James, you'd have a better idea of the figure...) a BAE type hemi is the most cost effective engine you can buy and operate. Alky FC's are around 4K hp, turning well over 10K RPM, and hardly ever oil down a track. They're amazing.
But, below that level, I guess the rest of us can run what ever we want.
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:43 AM
Jamze Duncan Jamze Duncan is offline
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Moeflo, on the latest style all billet, screw blown Alky Hemis as used in Pro Mod, I have heard of 3-4 recently stating 4500+hp on a dyno. That's gettin' it for 526 cubes.

Unlike NHRA Top Fuel, where basically a Hemi is the spec engine, there is no "spec" engine in pro mod other than not allowing anything bigger than 5.3" borespace blocks. That means anyone could use a blown ford or a chev engine if they want. Of course there's a reason they "don't want to" because no one can get them to run with that little 4.800 borespace Hemi.
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Old 05-22-2013, 06:41 PM
moeflo moeflo is offline
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James, thats a bunch of power. Amazingly, some of those who run them are racing without a spare waiting back in the trailer too.
As the fields keep getting quicker, I'd be surprised if they don't start populating Top Dragster classes more.

If somebody has the patience and money, I think the AJPE 5.3" hemi is capable. But, the current 4.80" engines have a big head lead in development and a dump truck load of data to draw from.

I hadn't thought of that, but you're dead right. Anybody can run what they want over there. So.....
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:53 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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Guess that because about 90% if not more of all the race engines at the pits are either small or big block chevies, they are the best ones out there. What I'm trying to say, is that there are other factors too when choosing an engine, knowledge, parts avaialability etc. But I guess there is no denying that it's very hard to challenge mopar Hemi in the forced induction combos. One important factor is that they stay together pretty well, and I believe that has kept the development level low with the other brands?
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:49 AM
moeflo moeflo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DartGT66 View Post
Guess that because about 90% if not more of all the race engines at the pits are either small or big block chevies, they are the best ones out there. What I'm trying to say, is that there are other factors too when choosing an engine, knowledge, parts avaialability etc. But I guess there is no denying that it's very hard to challenge mopar Hemi in the forced induction combos. One important factor is that they stay together pretty well, and I believe that has kept the development level low with the other brands?
There's a case to be made on your chevy angle. If you're one of those whose interest is simply into racing and not the technical aspects, then a mail order BBC, 'glide, and XXX dragster is the easiest way to race and not embarrass yourself . If you're a hard headed motor head like most of us, that approach has less appeal.
But, a chevy is not the only way to race at 500-1000 HP. It's just arguably the cheapest and most convenient. At the 4K and above HP level, you'll spend a lot more money, break more parts, and go slower using the alternative to a Top Allky FC type motor. In the P/M cars, I "think" having winning-capable HP that doesn't burn itself down every pass or two allows those guys to concentrate on getting down the track. And, that's probably the bigger challenge with those things.
I don't blame anyone who takes a different approach. They just have to be prepared for the bumpier road.
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