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  #1  
Old 11-10-2003, 09:09 AM
eric414 eric414 is offline
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Default mopar w8 motor

i am thinking of building a w8 motor.can you guys give me your in and output on these motors.i do know these make GOOD HP.i do also know that i need a new block.i can get a set of the bare heads and intake for $825.the rockers are not cheap either.or with go W5 heads on my stroker 360?.give me as much info as you can.thanks
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  #2  
Old 11-11-2003, 01:07 AM
Randal8 Randal8 is offline
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Before you buy bare w8's, check to see if they fully machined. Partial machined heads will not have ports, chambers, guides, rocker pads. They also require special valve covers. Check with Rick at Domino1609@Aol.com. He has run these motors and has a lot of parts for sale.
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  #3  
Old 11-11-2003, 01:09 AM
mr_340 mr_340 is offline
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Default W8 Heads

Check out the guy W8416 or whatever on the Moparts site. He seems to know all the details of these and other SB heads.
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  #4  
Old 11-11-2003, 07:43 AM
eric414 eric414 is offline
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Default w8

Randal8.yeah thats where i got the price on the w8 from domino1609.i had email the guy a couple days ago to get more info on top of that to see if he sell W5 heads.havent heard from him yet.i have a stout stroker 360 now just think of going with W5 heads on top of the motor i have now.just trying to find out how much it would cost to build one.oh as i see in the picture i can see exhaust ports and the valve spring seat,so these heads are machined right?look like pretty just do the head work.let me know thanks
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  #5  
Old 11-11-2003, 10:57 PM
Randal8 Randal8 is offline
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The W5 option would be the cheapest and easiest way to go if your running the 59* block. Unmachined W8s will have ports in them but there only the size of a 50cent piece. W8s also fit and work best on short deck, 48* blocks with the 18 head bolts.
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  #6  
Old 11-13-2003, 10:59 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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W8 heads are excellent; but, they are not designed to be used "out of the box". They are designed to be used as the basis for CNC port work. The same is true for the intake manifold.

After port work is done, the heads can and will flow close to 370CFM @.700"@28". And, you can ADAPT them to a 59 degree block BUT they are designed to mount on a 48 degree block.

Since they are designed as a pure race head, they use pure race rockers(Jesel or T&D). And they oil through the pushrods(AMC solid lifters or special roller lifters).

If you are on a budget, use the W5s. Properly ported, they can flow close to 325CFM@.700" @28". They use standard type shaft rockers, etc. and fit a 59 degree block.

You give up over 100HP and 700RPM by using the W5s but it is a much less expensive setup.
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  #7  
Old 11-13-2003, 03:24 PM
eric414 eric414 is offline
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Default w8

Sanborn.,want will it take to mount these on the 59 degree block?and what do you think it will cost to get the head completely done and flow the 370 cfms?just trying to get in idea on what it will cost to do a w8 motor.thanks Eric
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  #8  
Old 11-13-2003, 06:54 PM
msdnga msdnga is offline
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The cost on the W-8 is way up there, I am building a R3block with W-9 heads, and the price is not as bad as one would expect. The killer is all the homework. Special lifters from Comp, UGL cam from Mopar, W-9 intake, fab a sheet metal valley pan, T&D rollers. You could build one fairly cheap. The motor I have going together chose the spendy route. It has $2200 parabolic Oliver customs Rods, Ross Custom coated pistons $2500 Billet Bryant racing crank, modified manifold for fuel injection with direct port nitrous, 2000+ cfm dominator throttle body. I have a brand new extra set of un-machined W-9 heads I will sell for $500 shipped. By the way, the R3 blocks are around $1900-2000 and are 10 times the block. Later!
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Old 11-13-2003, 07:12 PM
eric414 eric414 is offline
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Default w8 motor

MSDNGA,thanks for the infor.thats what i am looking for.now if it was an a head motor no prob.if you dont mind me asking how much do you have in the heads?also i like to check out the W9 heads so do you have a picture of them.bcracing2004@aol.com.right now i am looking at Mopar muscle with the w9 340 pushing 600hp.not impressed.shouldnt these heads for all out drag push over 800hp?
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  #10  
Old 11-13-2003, 07:53 PM
msdnga msdnga is offline
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Believe it or not Johns motor has no major port work, nor does mine. John could have upped the cubic inch and compression and ported the heads to a larger level. But he is very happy with the current output. I would believe he has no hair left after building his motor and fabricating parts. I have $671 in the heads, used them on a Mag motor to mock up the intake mods, and freak people out when they came in the shop and saw them on a tiny Magnum block. It was going to cost more to insert the seats and guides than to just order the partially machined casting. I do have new pictures coming up soon. I think I have spent $3200 on the new heads so far. I have 430 cubic inches with a blower on top/ direct port nitrous and expect a ridiculous rear wheel number if my tranny holds up. I am unsure if you could find a manifold to fit a 59 degree block with these heads though. Not impossible, but some homework is required. Later!
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  #11  
Old 11-13-2003, 09:17 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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eric, to adapt a set of W8 or W9 heads to a 59 degree block requires major machinework into the intake runner for pushrod clearance. The roller lifters should also be offset intake. The rest of the fabrication is no problem-valley cover, intake spacers, water manifolds, etc. My concern is the strength of the block itself. I wouldn't any standard block and would only trust an early "X" block to about 675HP. If you want more than that-by all means go to the "R" with 48 degree lifter bores.

What HP will the W8s produce? Depends on the $$$. Our 358", oval track engine produces 746HP, on gas, single four barrel, moderate compression-13.5 to 1. More carb, camshaft, will probably yield 770HP. Those heads flow 360CFM. Our 408" has better heads, slightly more cam, etc. Don't know what the HP is-probably 780. The heads on the larger engine flow 370CFM.

What does it cost? Don't know current pricing, Chapman probably gets $3200 for the heads(guides/seats, etc.), matching intake is about $800, valves(2.20"/1.650") are about $1200, econo Jesel rockers are about $1200-better rockers are about $1800. The sheet metal valley cover is easily made. I think Arrington still would do the work as well. There are probably others.

How far can you go? World of Outlaws engine(408") produce about 850HP, injected on methanol.
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  #12  
Old 11-14-2003, 10:24 AM
eric414 eric414 is offline
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Thanks everyone i think i am going to keep my 414 hughes heads engine or just put w5 on the short block.how many horses do you guys think i can get out of w5 heads.someone had said i will be giving up about 100hp true?thanks
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  #13  
Old 11-14-2003, 10:27 AM
eric414 eric414 is offline
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from the last reply.i would be losing about 100hp going to the w5 over the w8 true?
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  #14  
Old 11-14-2003, 11:16 AM
msdnga msdnga is offline
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I have ported J heads on a 340 that makes 515 horse and I know a roller and W-5s would hit 600 around 7800, Good choice. Later!
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  #15  
Old 11-14-2003, 11:58 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Eric, I am an oval track racer- And, they are a little different from drag engines.

It has been my experience that a good, serious oval track engine will produce approximately 2.1HP per CFM of intake flow at maximum valve lift. This assumes a 4 barrel carb, precision assembly, matched ports, good intake manifold, aggressive camshaft, etc. And, you measure valve lift with a dial indicator on the retainer(remember SB Mopar don't really have the advertised valve lift because of lifter bore angles). And, CFM flow is measured at max valve lift.

The case of our 358" engine; the heads flow about 360 CFM multiplied by 2.1 = 756HP. The actual dyno numbers were 746HP- pretty close. We had a "limited" engine we used last year; the stock W2s flowed 250 CFM at the actual max lift of .615" lift. 250CFM multiplied by 2.1= 525HP. Actual Dyno results were 527HP. I could go on about other engines, the results are about the same. So if you compare two sets of heads, one flowing 40-45CFM more than the other, the higher flowing set will produce about 85-95HP more than the lesser set. The difference in a drag engine would be more because you can use more lift/duration than we do on oval tracks.

I say again, the W5s may be your best choice because of cost. Going to the W7,8 or9 heads is sort of like jumping off into the deep water. You got to spend "real $$$" to complete the job because everything required to finish the changeover is expensive-special rockers(jesel or T&D), intake(needs porting), valves(2.180/1.625-5.56" long-titanium preferred),
different valve angle/valve reliefs(maybe pistons), different headers, different pushrods, lifters, and in the case of W8s-different valve covers. Then you have the water plumbing(custom), valley cover and plumbing the oil return to the pan. Then you need the "R" block to take advantage of the 18 head bolts so you can use serious compression.

I'm not trying to be rude, crude, etc. I've been through it--------several times.
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  #16  
Old 11-15-2003, 02:38 AM
W8Dart375 W8Dart375 is offline
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Sanborn seems to have his Stuff together when it coms to exotic smallblocks, I'm impressed. Rarely do I meet/see someone with as much knowledge on the subject as he seems to have.

I'm the aforementioned "W8416" from moparts.com Actually I'm W8Dart371 over there. (I switched bores recently, so now the motor is a 375" LOL)

I'm the chief cylinder head porter at Shady Dell Speed Shop www.shadydellspeedshop.com We are a small shop that does Small Block Mopars exclusively, and specializes in SB Mopar cylinder head porting.

As for W8 motors, sanborn has answered many of your questions. The bare W8's that Domino1609@aol.com (Rick Liuzzo) has for sale all the time on ebay etc, are BARE W8's, no seats/guides etc. (I've purchased parts from Rick before, he seems to be a good guy, and has alot of the "normal" exotic NASCAR W8 stuff laying around) Anyhow, They W8's he has are the only ones now sold by MP. They were designed for one purpose and one purpose only, NASCAR Craftsman Truck competition. Then when NHRA came out with the Pro Stock Truck category, the W8 was chosen as the cylinder head platform of choice for the initial Pro Stock Truck 358" motors. Later on, the P5 head was designed to be the W8 Pro Stock head successor. Anyhow, don't be fooled by a low price on a bare set of W8's. I have a source who has an entire ROOM full of them who will sell you as many as you want for $600 a pair. The problem lies in the $ you have to spend to get them into an operational state. W8 heads HAVE to be CNC ported. I'm about as crazy as they get for hard core SB Mopar head porting, and even I'm not crazy enough to try to hand port W8's. So, you only have a few options for CNC programs. If you have connections, Arrington Racing Engines has several NASCAR CNC programs and MIGHT do a special order set if you know the right people. M2 supposedly has a decent W8 CNC program, and last I heard it's ~$2200 to do a pair. And lastly you have Chapman. You can contact them directly for a price quote. They have several nice CNC programs for the W8, including some drag programs. They will be in the $2500+ neighborhood. Don't forget, that is just for the porting. You also have to have the seat steps cut and seats/guides installed, and the heads have to be milled yet. If you want berrylium seats, The exhaust are $17 each from Del West and the intakes $22 each. (Don't ask me how I know LOL) But, for drag racing, iron seats would be fine. The guides are no big deal to get, unless you want 7mm and then, you better kiss some butt at CV products to locate a set (again, don't ask how I know LOL) Anyhow, Basically expect to have at least $4K in a new BARE set of W8's ready to run. MOST guys just buy them used, as there are quite a few sets floating aorund. Alot of ex NASCAR heads, and some Pro Stock heads. Keep in mind that the majority of the Ex NASCAR stuff have slightly smaller ports than the Pro Stock W8's. As far as flow goes, I have a set of W8's, and I have two friends who also each have a set. I had one of my buddies sets on my flowbench and they went 396 cfm @.800". His were an older generation Arrington CNC port, 2.16" Del West 7MM valve. His exhaust went in the 265 range with no flow tube. 1.625" Del West 5/16" stem valve. His heads are used. Mine are brand new, last generation Arrington CNC program, right before the switch to the P7 head in Craftsman Truck. I hav'nt gotten to flow mine yet, as I just got the seats and guides installed. And have not done the valve job yet. We are using Del West 7 mm valves with a 50* seat, and that causes headaches when trying to locate a 50* seat cutter. The 50* seat is designed to increase peak flow #'s, while sacrificing some low lift flow. I am expecting my heads to be in the 400-410 cfm range with the newer Arrington CNC program. Keep in mind these are LARGE runners and bowls, ~265 cc's

Anyhow, my heads are going on the following combo:

R1 48* Race block. 9" deck, Lifter bores cut for keyway Jesels. 4 bolt billet main caps. Full lightening program. The block is a used Craftsman Truck block, all machine work done by Arrington Racing Engines. 50 mm roller cam bearings. This block was originally designed for dry sump oiling. I am going to run internal oiling (Don't ask how, LONG story)

Crank is 3.51" MP Forged, Rod journals cut to 2.100", Aerodynamically shaped and lightened.

Rods are GRP Billet Alum. 6" GM, 465 grams

Pistons are JE Flat tops, 15* valve reliefs (oh yes, all W7/8/9 are 15* except some VERY early W7 which was still 18* and some VERY late W8 Pro Stock Heads that were 13*)
Pistons are being lightened as we speak by DMI in Montana.
4.125" bore X 3.51" Stroke = 375"
JE Tool Steel Pins...

Oil Pan is Steffs Aluminum S/S pan

Webber 9" Deck Belt Drive (Try locating one of those sometime

)

ATI 3.75 lb Aluminum Damper, MSD Crank Trigger

Mallory Billet Dist.

Custom Ground 50 MM Bilelt Roller by Comp Cams, ~ .765" 290@ .050"

Keyway Jesel Roller Lifters

Jesel Pushrods

Heads, you know about. ISKY Tool Room Springs, Manley Super 7* ti. retainers and locks. The Rockers are Jesel 1.7:1 with every lightening option and upgrade available, dovetailed, shot peened, tool steel adjusters. rivited roller etc. The Rocker bars are custom Jesel, "Arrington Spec" Modified "W117" Jesel Bars.

Valve Covers are MP Magnesium, and the Dodge Magnum logo is being milled off and a custom logo CNC'd in by DMI.

Intake is a CFE Shetmetal Tunnel Ram off of the old Sox & Martin Pro Stock Truck. Also I got the twin 750 Pro Stock Dominators along with it.

That's the basic engine......... Hoping to have it together and on the dyno in February. Should make somewhere between 800-840 HP on gasoline. Compression is 14.3:1

As for my friends W8 motors, one is going to be a 3.33" stroke x 4.185" bore and the other 3.25" X 4.185" Both with used Arrington NASCAR CNC W8's. One will have sheetmetal T-ram and the other a single 4 on a cast intake. Similar builds to mine except they are running steel Carrillo rods, and NASCAR cams, also they are both using 60MM cam R3 blocks. Both 9" deck. All 3 are designed to be drag engines.

Another friend just finished up a 374" W7 motor, and I'm hoping to see it on the dyno by the end of the month. It is a pump gas Street./Strip engine that MAY hit 700 HP. Let's keep our fingers crossed
It has Chapman CNC W7's, Single 4 cast intake, 1050 Dominator, ~12:1, 50 MM roller cam, 9" deck, 6" Howard's Billet Rods, Custom JE's etc etc.

I'm currently porting a set of W9's for a guy in Michigan. His plans are a tall deck 9.56" large stroke (3.79") Drag Motor. I'm porting his single 4 cast intake as well. The W9's are a BEAUTIFUL head. $467 each bare, dealer cost. Last I saw there were 29 left in the warehouse in MI. That is the 11/32" guide version. These come with uncut blank iron seats and 11/32" guides. MP also makes a 3/8" guide version for some unGodly reason. Anyhow, This set I'm porting are getting 2.15"/1.625" Del Wests. I'm at ~365-370 cfm with them right now. The rest of the flow is in the bowl, and how large you want to go. His bowls now are substantially smaller than something like my W8 bowl. And basically I'm undecided if I want to push these heads to that type of level. But anyhow, 365-370 cfm is fairly easy to obtain by hand porting W9's, that last 20-30 cfm IS there, but you btter know what you are doing before going looking for it.

The W9 is the way to go for $ reasons. No CNC porting required, and already come with seats and Guides. Also the rockers can be had relatively cheaply if you know who to go through to get them. That Mopar Muscle 340" W9 buildup article had ALOT of inaccuracies in it. I wrote a dissertation over on moparts.com after it came out pointing out all the errors. It just kind of rubbed me the wrong way because to the uninitiated who read it, they would come away thinking W9 motors are highly exotic and a complete PITA to build. (Which is'nt entirely true) It just requires HOMEWORK as was mentioned before. If you know what you are doing, the problems for the most part don't exist. BTW: Valley trays DO EXIST How many do you want? LOL Also 9.56" deck W7/8/9 Single 4 cast intakes DO EXIST. I've had them in my hands. That intake they used in the article was a damn 9" deck intake, as indicated by the part # on the runners in the one pic they had, yet they claimed it was supposed to be a 9.20" deck unit. And they wondered why they had to make spacers for it...... Oh well. Before anyone goes and tries to build something like that, they should consult someone "in the know". All they would have had to do was pick up a phone and call Tim Davis, and he could have eliminated alot of their "headaches"

OH and can you put a W8/9 on a 59* block? YES. I have pics of a W9 on a 59* Magnum motor that is being designed by a MP engineer right now. Look for a Magnum block with W9's and a Hydraulic Roller to be released in the future as a MP crate engine. It's being marketed as a dirt track engine.


As for W5 heads.............................. My favorite subject LOL. I was just porting a set today for a drag racer in Mexico, this set id going on a 418" motor that currently has B1-BA's. W5's are a whole another world in themselves. There were at least 3 different foundries that cast them, and at least 4 different production runs. Some are JUNK, some are excellent heads. IMO they are the best 59* heads ever produced. When fully ported by the right shop, ( We do a pretty good job, Brandywine Cylinder Heads also is an excellent W5 head shop) They will outflow a full ported INDY 360-1R, a Batten Head, B1-BA, and whatever else you want to throw at them. But just like the W8/9 stuff, you need to familiarize yourself with their "quirks" before jumping off the deep end. W5's are no longer produced, so to buy a set you have to find them in private ownership. I know where there are a few stashed away right now. In todays market they are bringing $1K a pair bare. Just the basics: They use W2/5 race rocker arm setups, 5.28" long valves, can accept up to a 2.10" intake valve, use a special W5 intake manifold (although the INDY 360-3 intake can be made to work) and W5 headers. And again, depending on brand/chassis some W2 headers can be made to work. The W5 has the exhaust port raised .800" from Stock/W2 location. Other notes would be: the valve guides are all 3/8" from MP,and they have a very WEIRD OD on them, making finding replacement 11/32" etc guides a little tougher than normal. I have the CV products part #'s here if anyone needs them. Often times the middle rocker bolt hole is drilled right into the water jacket so watch out there. Also whatever you do make SURE you have them pressure tested before use. W5's are porous and often water will "weep" through the aluminum particularly on the short turn corners of the intake after porting. There is a SMALL water jacket that runs at a weird angle under the short turn that causes this problem. I have had a cutaway W5 in my hands and have seen the water passage. Just a stupid place and angle to run it. There is the main water passage under the short turn, and then this one little seperate one that angles off.... Also the seats will sometimes leak right out of the box. You just have to be vigilant with them, they are not for everyone. But if you want to go FAST with a 59* motor, particularly under 400 CID, they are THE head to run. OH also..... They flow TERRIBLE as cast. The exhaust ports are cast very small. The last set I tested peaked 158 cfm out of the box on the exhaust side. They were 240 when ported We usually see low 320's for a peak on the intake, but the low/Mid are so much stronger than anything else. I have had one go as high as 302 @ .500"!!!!! I "gauge" cylinder head flow by how good they flow at .500" of lift. The typical max port W2 will be 274-278 on my bench. So comapre that to the 302 above W5's are generally 294-298 @ .500" That 302 was just kind of an anomalie. Also we now offer a W5 conversion head, called the "W6", it is a custom labor intenive job, but it is providing huge flow #'s from the W5. (227 @ .300", 314 @ .500", 346 @ .700") The best part is, that the runner valume is only 5 cc's more than a full port standard W5. (223 vs 218)

ANYHOW..... If anyone has any questions pertaining to Small Block Chrysler cylinder heads or SB Mopar race engines in general or just want to "shoot the bull" Please feel free to email me anytime at rej111@psu.edu

Ryan J.
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  #17  
Old 11-15-2003, 10:37 AM
eric414 eric414 is offline
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Sanborn and w8dart375.man you guys have made it easy for me to go with the w5.thats what i was looking for someone that has mess with these w8 heads.i dont know much about the 8's.i just know that power awesome power and i really didnt know the cost.w8dart i will be emailing you soon on a set of w5 .thanks guys.Eric
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  #18  
Old 11-22-2003, 05:30 AM
KM KM is offline
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Ryan, that is something i would call AN ANSWER.....
Good reading for everyone wether your interested in SB´s or not..
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  #19  
Old 11-22-2003, 08:57 PM
J-BODY J-BODY is offline
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Great post guys and thanks for taking the xtra time to type all that out. Very informative.
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  #20  
Old 11-23-2003, 08:50 PM
skankweirdall skankweirdall is offline
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Wow Ryan, where you 5 years ago when I was building my W5?
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  #21  
Old 11-25-2003, 01:15 AM
W8Dart375 W8Dart375 is offline
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Idea

Quote:
Originally posted by skankweirdall
Wow Ryan, where you 5 years ago when I was building my W5?
5 years ago? Working on getting my Bachelors Degree LOL. I'll be doing another set of W5's next week for a guy from Georgia. Gotta love 'em.
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  #22  
Old 11-25-2003, 11:02 PM
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VernMotor VernMotor is offline
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Wow I am a big block guy and I think I just learn something from all that! good reading..like the others have said. thanks for taking the time to write all that..
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  #23  
Old 11-21-2021, 10:58 PM
Raysmopar Raysmopar is offline
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Default W8

Hi guys Im looking for a pair of Mopar performance W8 valve covers does anybody have any for sale thank you very much currently
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  #24  
Old 02-16-2022, 03:30 AM
spicynerd spicynerd is offline
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Performance parts can be found here at Genuine Mopar Parts & Accessories | Mopar Online Parts
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