The Earth would reverse it's direction

[pcrmike]

The same would go for our beloved A-bodies too, as well as Aspens and Volares, as some of these were Canadian, eh? What about Chebby? Their 3400 (3.4) V-6 is built in (ahem) CHINA! :-) PCRMike

[Stoga]

Originally Posted by RP Racing-#940

Funny thing is Toyota build more cars here putting wages in american workers pockets. How many GM, Ford and DC plants here have shut down and moved prduction to Mexico? BTW Japans been a staunch allie of the US also.

Yes, the United States is being sold down the tubes, meanwhile Canada has been a staunch ally all along with their economic fortunes and ours directly tied together. Japan, not near so much......
I consider their economical relationship with the US as much more parasitical than Canada.

The race cars all share the same damn chassis. Motor and bodywork are the only difference. People are just upset over having a Japanese nameplate in Napcar. 3 makes racing makes a boring race. How many car names were out there in 1980? Ford, Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, Olds, Dodge, Mercury.

You won't hear me defending Nascar's decisions, I consider them part of the problem. Besides, they have a history of crapping on Chrysler corporation and it's fans, or did you miss that whole no Mopars allowed to race thing that went on from late 70s until recently?

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by Stoga

You won't hear me defending Nascar's decisions, I consider them part of the problem. Besides, they have a history of crapping on Chrysler corporation and it's fans, or did you miss that whole no Mopars allowed to race thing that went on from late 70s until recently?

The way that is phrased makes it incorrect. NASCAR did not keep Mopar out after Petty left in '77 and I think the last Magnum ran in '79. Mopar was not building any cars that fit NASCAR specs at the time. THe Magnum was as areo as a brick and too big. I thought we had a chance when the Lebaron came out in the '80's but it was too small and was only run in Bush, and it was succesfull too. I'm glad they are back, and they are not doing too bad this year. 3 wins and 6 top tens by Kasey KAhne and Scott Riggs is looking good, and Mayfield has been better as well. After all it's Evernhams teams so you expect them to do good. Bobby L. seems to qualify decent and start off decent, but fades mid race for some reason. Petty Ent. just does not have there act together yet and they can't blame it on the engines now, since they use Evernham engines.

[loki993]

The race cars all share the same damn chassis. Motor and bodywork are the only difference. People are just upset over having a Japanese nameplate in Napcar. 3 makes racing makes a boring race. How many car names were out there in 1980? Ford, Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, Olds, Dodge, Mercury.

back then, they still looked like cars you could get in the showroom and they were all distinct. now they all lok the same pretty much. it wont matter if you have 20 different makes, them only visible diference in the cars basically how the grille looks and whant makes sticket is on the bumper. they need to bring back homogulation rules back and also get the cars back to a point to where they are distinctive, if not it will end up being indy cars with fenders, it already kinda is.

[Stoga]

Originally Posted by dwc43

The way that is phrased makes it incorrect. NASCAR did not keep Mopar out after Petty left in '77 and I think the last Magnum ran in '79. Mopar was not building any cars that fit NASCAR specs at thetime.THe Magnum was as areo as a brick and too big. I thought we had a chance when the Lebaron came out in the '80's but it was too small and was only run in Bush, and it was succesfull too.

6 of one, half a dozen of another. Nascar thought it was fine to allow 4 door and FWD body styles when they needed to do it for Ford and GM.
Chrysler Corp , however, had to wait, if not for that there'd have been 5th Avenues, New Yorkers, Diplomats and Furys on the race track, along with the very similar GM and Ford entries. Chrysler was allowed to languish a very long time, which allowed GM to catch up then brag about having the most Nascar victories with that oh so hot machine, the Lumina...

I'm glad they are back, and they are not doing too bad this year. 3 wins and 6 top tens by Kasey KAhne and Scott Riggs is looking good, and Mayfield has been better as well. After all it's Evernhams teams so you expect them to do good. Bobby L. seems to qualify decent and start off decent, but fades mid race for some reason. Petty Ent. just does not have there act together yet and they can't blame it on the engines now, since they use Evernham engines.

Agreed on that and I'm very proud of the effort put forth by the Mopar teams, well done fellas! I just hope Petty Enterprise can get their act together, it's like they never really recovered after being forced to race Pontiacs.

[slogger]

O.K. lets face it if NASCAR want imports then that what we have to put up with but, Don"t let a day go buy with out letting your favorite drives know that you don"t want them driveing a foreign brand name ON OUR AMERICAN RACE TRACKSunless your will to pluge some of your american hard earned money back in to theU.S.A.

[rfeiller]

so let's see if a vehicle is designed in japan, but built in the USA it is Japanese:
however, if the vehicle, say dodge rams are designed in the USA, but built in Mexico it is american? now if the engine is built by Izuzu it is called a chevy.
I understand the loyalty of being an american, but I know of no vehicle today that is not a composite of many different countries efforts. The only fear I have is that the american made japanese designed vehicles will wipe the american designed made in canada, mexico or where ever ass.

anyone know which country the new challenger will be made in?

Business is business, first there was Lee Petty,then Richard, then Kyle, and of course Adam. I wish them the best, don't want to loose them, but I do want them to survive as the great family they have always been.

[REDNECKMOBILE]

Originally Posted by dwc43

That is incorrect. Petty went to fords cause Dodge built the Daytona winged car and Plymouth thought it was hideous and refused to build one and did not want there name attached to one. They also refused to let Petty drive a Dodge since he was sponsored by Plymouth. After Petty jumped ship, Plymouth built the SuperBird. This car would never had been built if it were not for Petty. The SuperBird is not as areo as the Daytona either just for and added fact.

The Superbird was aero enough for Pete Hamilton to spank everybody at Daytona and Talledega including the King, pissed him enough to fire Pete, that's my quess. The Petty's are in it for the money today as they were back when they went to Ford, it is known that the Pettys wanted half of Mopar's racing budget since they won half the races but Mopar balked and told them to leave and with Ford holding a bag full of money of course they went. Mopar caved in the next year and gave Petty the racing parts deal for them to return which was good for both. Today the Petty's make more money selling their history; in order for them to be competitive they would be cutting into their profits and that ain't going to happen, money rules for the Petty's as well as Nascar.

[pcrmike]

Then Petty is a liar, because he said himself that it was because Plymouth would not build him a wing car and would not let him drive the Dodge. If that were true, why would he come back as soon as the Superbird came out? These guys ran without factory support on modded junkyard motors, and very skimpy factory support, and got to the point to where they were not competitive before Petty left. That is not from Petty alone, but also Maurice Petty and others. :-) PCRMike

[dwc43]

Thanks, Mike. Your 100% correct. Heck, it's been documented in many books,mag articles, and videos since it happened in the '70's and 30 seconds of research on the web would have offered up that info to anyone willing to look before they leaped.

[REDNECKMOBILE]

Originally Posted by pcrmike

Then Petty is a liar, because he said himself that it was because Plymouth would not build him a wing car and would not let him drive the Dodge. If that were true, why would he come back as soon as the Superbird came out? These guys ran without factory support on modded junkyard motors, and very skimpy factory support, and got to the point to where they were not competitive before Petty left. That is not from Petty alone, but also Maurice Petty and others. :-) PCRMike

He could have build a Dodge anytime he chose to, best I can remember America was a free country during that time. There are plenty of excuses for the actions of that time but I'll bet the money from Ford made the Petty's move just as a bag full of money will get the same results today for Toyota. No one can race for long unless their efforts are business first and loyalty second. Also the Petty's never ran underfunded back then, those that did were known as "independents".

[dwc43]

You need to go and do some research. I've been to his shop. Back when he ran the Magnum. I've got the books, the mags, and the videos. I grew up watching the Petty's and I can tell you, you aint got a clue. THey ran under funded for years. There was very little factory backing a lot of the times during the '60's and '70's. Big money never really hit the sport till the mid '80's and then it mushroomed all oout or proportion and look what we have now.

And Petty could not go and build a Dodge. Back then you had Dodge, Plymouth, and Chrysler. The 3 sections of the company were considered seperate, but under the same roof. THat's one reason Plymouth did not have to build the sister car to the Daytona. The reason Petty could not build a Dodge is because he was under contract to run a Plymouth and did so up until '72 when all factory backing was pulled. He then went to a Dodge Charger for the first time. In '71 and '72 Dodge contracted with Petty to build a Dodge and Baker drove it.

[REDNECKMOBILE]

Originally Posted by dwc43

You need to go and do some research. I've been to his shop. Back when he ran the Magnum. I've got the books, the mags, and the videos. I grew up watching the Petty's and I can tell you, you aint got a clue. THey ran under funded for years. There was very little factory backing a lot of the times during the '60's and '70's. Big money never really hit the sport till the mid '80's and then it mushroomed all oout or proportion and look what we have now.

And Petty could not go and build a Dodge. Back then you had Dodge, Plymouth, and Chrysler. The 3 sections of the company were considered seperate, but under the same roof. THat's one reason Plymouth did not have to build the sister car to the Daytona. The reason Petty could not build a Dodge is because he was under contract to run a Plymouth and did so up until '72 when all factory backing was pulled. He then went to a Dodge Charger for the first time. In '71 and '72 Dodge contracted with Petty to build a Dodge and Baker drove it.

Seems to me that a person would not sign a contract unless there was some incentive to go along with it and Ford in my opinion had plenty of it. The Ford was the king of superspeedways in 1969 and if memory serves me right the Pettys could have won just as many superspeedways that year with the Plymouth.

[pcrmike]

Wrong again, as the Daytonas owned the superspeedways in 69, and the Birds and Daytonas in 70. The contract went back before the Wing cars, and DeeDubya is right that the divisions were treated totally separate. Hence Sox & Martin dod Plymouth, no Demons or Challys, even the Plymouth Sapporo in 1978. Landy did Darts and Challys, no Dusters or Cudas during the era of factory support. Dodge and Plymouth were competitors as much as allies. The Fords ruled the superspeedways at first in 69 because the best Dodge had to compete was the Charger 500. The wing cars came out on the Dodge side and Patty wanted one after seeing how much faster they were, knowing that a "B" is a "B" and if the charger had one, the bird could too. Plymouth said no, Petty wanted to drive the Dodge. Plymouth said no, so he went to Ford. Even Goldsmith said that after Petty was told they would build wing cars for him, he left Ford and went back. If Ford was throwing so much money around and Petty was a money hound, why leave? :-) PCRMike

[REDNECKMOBILE]

Originally Posted by pcrmike

Wrong again, as the Daytonas owned the superspeedways in 69, and the Birds and Daytonas in 70. The contract went back before the Wing cars, and DeeDubya is right that the divisions were treated totally separate. Hence Sox & Martin dod Plymouth, no Demons or Challys, even the Plymouth Sapporo in 1978. Landy did Darts and Challys, no Dusters or Cudas during the era of factory support. Dodge and Plymouth were competitors as much as allies. The Fords ruled the superspeedways at first in 69 because the best Dodge had to compete was the Charger 500. The wing cars came out on the Dodge side and Patty wanted one after seeing how much faster they were, knowing that a "B" is a "B" and if the charger had one, the bird could too. Plymouth said no, Petty wanted to drive the Dodge. Plymouth said no, so he went to Ford. Even Goldsmith said that after Petty was told they would build wing cars for him, he left Ford and went back. If Ford was throwing so much money around and Petty was a money hound, why leave? :-) PCRMike

As in any business, Ford paid those that performed and in 1969 a racer named Lee Roy won more than his share of supers and if memory serves right the King won none, quess who got the money in 1970.

[pcrmike]

So the King was faster in Mopars than in Fords, big surprise! I have enjoyed this debate, guys, no insults or barbs, just a good ol fashioned debate! :-) PCRMike

[dwc43]

Originally Posted by REDNECKMOBILE

As in any business, Ford paid those that performed and in 1969 a racer named Lee Roy won more than his share of supers and if memory serves right the King won none, quess who got the money in 1970.

That's because Petty was stuck with the Plymouth RoadRunner thats was about as aero as a brick compared to the Torino and Mercury Cyclone at the time. Why the hell do you think that he wanted a wing car? The wing cars were ready for what was called the Firecracker 400 at Daytona for the July race. !st time out they not only won they race, but they stunk up the show with a 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 place in a row finsh. I don't think there has ever been a 1st through 7th place finish by a single make of car owned by several different teams, on it's maiden voyage that was untested in competion to this very day.

And Petty still won his fair share of races in a ferd that year, so go check your stat books. And by the way, Ford was not paying Petty a dime. He did not work, nor did he race for Ford. The Ford Torino in Petty bule was a body in white bought from non other than Homan and Moody along with an aray of engine parts and pieces, springs, shocks, suspension pieces etc. etc. The Fords were built soley in Petty Ent. shops by P.E. crews. The Ford engines were built soley by Maurice Petty and not Ford. He did it to prove a point to Plymouth.

Petty knew Dodge had a superior car to the Plymouth and Ford still had a good car for the short and intermediate tracks. Plymouth mocked Petty when he threatened them in person that he would go and build himself a Ford and win. Plymouth was so aragant about it that they thought there was no way for him to win with the Ford even over there Plymouth. THey found out wrong and went begging to get Petty back. THey gave Petty everything they could offer to get him back and keep him. The motto back then was What wins on Sunday sells on Monday and it was the plain truth back then. There was papaer work to prove it from all makers. Petty as first offered the Bird in order to get him to return and then they offered up the performance parts sales to the other teams. You run Dodge or Plymouth you bought your parts from Petty Ent. That's what got him back. He had every chance to leave after that as well, but did not.

In '71 he wanted to drive the Dodge again and Plymouth would not let him. He built Bakers Dodge due to the fact that Dodge,Plymouth, and Chrysler were merging the divisions now and they were limiting funds and only backing one Dodge and one Plymouth team. Wonder why he did not leave then for more money?? He ran the Plymouth and Baker ran the Dodge Charger. In mid ;72 factory sponsors got pisseds and NASCAR and all of them pulled out. The chevy division had not sponsored a car, ever at that point. Now with no Mopar factory backing, why did Petty not jump ship now?? He did, sot of. Not under any factory contract he wnet to Dodge since the Charger was a better car than the RoadRunner.

You'll also take notice that in '71 Petty set in motion a deal with STP. and at the first Riverside race at the start of the '72 season the car was Petty blue with a red STP decal on it. And it stayed blue for many races after that. The orignal deal was STP offered him $75,000 for the year and wanted the car STP red just like the indy car was painted. Petty refused and got up and walked out of the negotiations. Guess he really needed the money, huh ?? Granetelli came back with an off of $50,000 if it stayed blue and offered another $45,000 if he would paint it red. HE still refused to paint it red. THat's why you will see the car for several races with STP decals and Petty blue paint. Granetelli finaly struck the deal to go Petty Blue and STP red. for an additional $35,000. And the deal was set for years to come.

You don't think Petty was loyal, your foolish. Just alone look at the loyalty of the Petty STP sponsorship. It started in '72 and they stayed with Petty though thick and thin until he retired in '92. That's 20 years of loyalty right there and then STP stayed on board for several years after that. THey are still a secondary sponsor on that car only till this day. Kyle has even mentioned that they are trying dealery to regain the STP sponsorship to be there main sponsor again. Talk about loyalty. I hope they get that done.

Redneck, you better go back and do some major research, cause your making yourself look real bad on this one. If everything pans out just right, I hope to be in Petty's shop next weekend in Level Cross N.C. If it works out right and I get to go, I'll bring you back some pics of all that loyalty over the years. Would you like me to pick up some research materail, books, videos, etc. for you if I get to go? I'll be glad to help you out.

[Frank]

What the hell does any of that have to do with the condition of NASCAR today?

The Petty's WERE great, now they're just another race team. Their past glory is history now. That doesn't diminish it, it just has no bearing on NASCAR, today.

If they change to Toyota, that will have more effect on the fans, than NASCAR, or Mopar, for that matter.
Sorry if that sounds cold, but Jees... The whole Petty thing is a little blow out of proportion. It's like the Ernhardt fans still wearing their "3" hats. He was great at what he did, but he's now gone, and has no bearing on NASCAR, or Chevrolet.
Granted, Richard is still alive, but he's retired, and has little to do with racing. Though, he does lend his name and celiberity to NASCAR.

The issue here was what if Petty goes to Toyota? To which, I reply, So what?

While there is nothing made public that would hint that they are considering that change, if they did, it would be because of getting a better deal. Remember, Petty Enterprises is a BUSINESS, first and foreost. They have hundreds of employees, and a payroll to meet every week. They have loans, mortgages, insurances and otherexpenses to pay. If they get a better deal from Toyota, and don't take it, it would be a bad business decision.

The day of touchy/feely emotional loyalty in NASCAR, is gone. You talking about hundreds of millions of dollars a year. It is no longer about the racing. It's business, pure and simple.

A few of you have said that Petty Enterprises would lose your support if change. How exactly do you support them? You cheer for them from the stands, and buy a hat with 43 on it? Is that it? A deal with Toyota could mean a few million dollars more per year for the team. Can your support compete with, or offset that?

I'm not saying PE is or would change, but if they did, your "support" would be missed, but only until NASCAR new fans made up for the your absence. When the new, young, and financially secure Toyota fans started "supporting PE, and buying hats.

NASCAR is not about tradition any more, It's not about racing, and it's not about family, even though that is what they want you to believe. It's about money, entertainment, and hype.

It's the Professional Westling of Motor Sports, plain and simple. The should rename it Motor Racing Entertainment. At least then when NA$CAR throws the yellow flag for a 'debris caution", to allow the Chevies to catch up, it wont be looked at NASCAR affecting the competition, but rather, nascar just making sure that the fans stay interested and assuring a favorable finish for the favorites.

[REDNECKMOBILE]

Originally Posted by dwc43

That's because Petty was stuck with the Plymouth RoadRunner thats was about as aero as a brick compared to the Torino and Mercury Cyclone at the time. Why the hell do you think that he wanted a wing car? The wing cars were ready for what was called the Firecracker 400 at Daytona for the July race. !st time out they not only won they race, but they stunk up the show with a 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 place in a row finsh. I don't think there has ever been a 1st through 7th place finish by a single make of car owned by several different teams, on it's maiden voyage that was untested in competion to this very day.

And Petty still won his fair share of races in a ferd that year, so go check your stat books. And by the way, Ford was not paying Petty a dime. He did not work, nor did he race for Ford. The Ford Torino in Petty bule was a body in white bought from non other than Homan and Moody along with an aray of engine parts and pieces, springs, shocks, suspension pieces etc. etc. The Fords were built soley in Petty Ent. shops by P.E. crews. The Ford engines were built soley by Maurice Petty and not Ford. He did it to prove a point to Plymouth.

Petty knew Dodge had a superior car to the Plymouth and Ford still had a good car for the short and intermediate tracks. Plymouth mocked Petty when he threatened them in person that he would go and build himself a Ford and win. Plymouth was so aragant about it that they thought there was no way for him to win with the Ford even over there Plymouth. THey found out wrong and went begging to get Petty back. THey gave Petty everything they could offer to get him back and keep him. The motto back then was What wins on Sunday sells on Monday and it was the plain truth back then. There was papaer work to prove it from all makers. Petty as first offered the Bird in order to get him to return and then they offered up the performance parts sales to the other teams. You run Dodge or Plymouth you bought your parts from Petty Ent. That's what got him back. He had every chance to leave after that as well, but did not.

In '71 he wanted to drive the Dodge again and Plymouth would not let him. He built Bakers Dodge due to the fact that Dodge,Plymouth, and Chrysler were merging the divisions now and they were limiting funds and only backing one Dodge and one Plymouth team. Wonder why he did not leave then for more money?? He ran the Plymouth and Baker ran the Dodge Charger. In mid ;72 factory sponsors got pisseds and NASCAR and all of them pulled out. The chevy division had not sponsored a car, ever at that point. Now with no Mopar factory backing, why did Petty not jump ship now?? He did, sot of. Not under any factory contract he wnet to Dodge since the Charger was a better car than the RoadRunner.

You'll also take notice that in '71 Petty set in motion a deal with STP. and at the first Riverside race at the start of the '72 season the car was Petty blue with a red STP decal on it. And it stayed blue for many races after that. The orignal deal was STP offered him $75,000 for the year and wanted the car STP red just like the indy car was painted. Petty refused and got up and walked out of the negotiations. Guess he really needed the money, huh ?? Granetelli came back with an off of $50,000 if it stayed blue and offered another $45,000 if he would paint it red. HE still refused to paint it red. THat's why you will see the car for several races with STP decals and Petty blue paint. Granetelli finaly struck the deal to go Petty Blue and STP red. for an additional $35,000. And the deal was set for years to come.

You don't think Petty was loyal, your foolish. Just alone look at the loyalty of the Petty STP sponsorship. It started in '72 and they stayed with Petty though thick and thin until he retired in '92. That's 20 years of loyalty right there and then STP stayed on board for several years after that. THey are still a secondary sponsor on that car only till this day. Kyle has even mentioned that they are trying dealery to regain the STP sponsorship to be there main sponsor again. Talk about loyalty. I hope they get that done.

Redneck, you better go back and do some major research, cause your making yourself look real bad on this one. If everything pans out just right, I hope to be in Petty's shop next weekend in Level Cross N.C. If it works out right and I get to go, I'll bring you back some pics of all that loyalty over the years. Would you like me to pick up some research materail, books, videos, etc. for you if I get to go? I'll be glad to help you out.

This is from my memory but the 1969 Daytona Firecracker 400 was won by Lee Roy in a Ford that had the exhaust pipes run out the rear. Before the race everybody thought it was cute since it looked "street" like but during the race they weren't so happy; the hot exhaust kept the others from drafting him and those that did overheated their motors and lost the race. As for Petty getting money from Ford I don't know as I was not their accountant but you or Petty will not convince me he spent the whole year of 1969 driving a Ford for free. Personally I could care less what the Pettys do today and if they go with Toyota more power to them. When it comes to product loyality they could learn a thing or two from a family of Virginian mountaineers but then who knows maybe they will be the ones fielding a Toyota; I doubt it though.

[nhdriver]

Originally Posted by rfeiller

so let's see if a vehicle is designed in japan, but built in the USA it is Japanese:
however, if the vehicle, say dodge rams are designed in the USA, but built in Mexico it is american? now if the engine is built by Izuzu it is called a chevy.
I understand the loyalty of being an american, but I know of no vehicle today that is not a composite of many different countries efforts. The only fear I have is that the american made japanese designed vehicles will wipe the american designed made in canada, mexico or where ever ass.

anyone know which country the new challenger will be made in?

Business is business, first there was Lee Petty,then Richard, then Kyle, and of course Adam. I wish them the best, don't want to loose them, but I do want them to survive as the great family they have always been.

Well, yes they make Toyota's & Honda's here (as well as Japan) & they make some Dodges in Mexico But the money made by Toyota & Honda goes to Japan and if you buy a Nissan half of the money goes to France. (they own 50% of Nissan) The profit from D-C goes to the stockholders here & in Germany.

[72Challenger]

Originally Posted by nhdriver

Well, yes they make Toyota's & Honda's here (as well as Japan) & they make some Dodges in Mexico But the money made by Toyota & Honda goes to Japan and if you buy a Nissan half of the money goes to France. (they own 50% of Nissan) The profit from D-C goes to the stockholders here & in Germany.

The profit from Toyota, Honda and Nissan goes to the shareholders just like DCX profit goes to the shareholders. Actually, most of the profit gets reinvested, dividend payments are only a fraction of the profits in any company, but ALL of the automobile companies of the world are multi-national. Honda stock, for example, is traded on the exchanges of Japan, Switzerland, United Kingdom, France, Germany, Mexico, and a little place you may have heard of called the United States.

If you want to know where the money is going, look at where the factories are, and where equipment and materials are being purchased from. The Japanese auto companies are doing their share to keep the American economy healthy. Yes, the corporations are registered in Japan, but the owners are everywhere.

[Stoga]

Originally Posted by 72Challenger

The Japanese auto companies are doing their share to keep the American economy healthy. Yes, the corporations are registered in Japan, but the owners are everywhere.

Yeah yeah, keep telling yourself that, yet all the industries that used to support the US auto industry are hurting, and the economy isnt exactly doing great shakes either. Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back when you sign that import title.

[72Challenger]

The fix that the U.S. auto industry is in now is a self-inflicted one. Yes, it is hurting innocent people, and that really is a shame. That has nothing to do with the misinformation posted by nhdriver about the ownership of multinational corporations. Do I like it that the 20% of my retirement fund that is invested in international corporations is outperforming the 80% that is invested in domestic corporations? Of course not. Will I sell that 20% and invest it all in American companies? No, I'm not that stupid.

In the '80s American car companies got themselves into the same exact fix they are in now. They didn't see the writing on the wall, and continued to chase the short-term profit with poor-quality gas-guzzlers, compared to what Japan was offering. The solution lay in part with the companies becoming more competetive by offering the comsumer what they wanted, and in part by protectionist quotas levied against the Japanese companies. Either or both solutions could happen again. Personally I would love to see Americans become more competetive solely through the quality of the merchadise they offer for sale. I know we can do it. I think that the mindset of the corporate executive is going to be to run to the government for help again. Either way, we will bounce back. It's a cyclical thing, and history does repeat itself. Unfortunately, greedy, selfish and shortsighted corporate executives and union management continues to make the American worker suffer because they (management, both of the corporations and unions) fail to learn the lessons of history.

[72Challenger]

Originally Posted by Stoga

Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back when you sign that import title.

And for your information, the only time I've ever owned an imported vehicle was in the 1970s and early 80s when I had a Plymouth Arrow.

[custom880]

Originally Posted by 72Challenger

The fix that the U.S. auto industry is in now is a self-inflicted one. Yes, it is hurting innocent people, and that really is a shame. That has nothing to do with the misinformation posted by nhdriver about the ownership of multinational corporations. Do I like it that the 20% of my retirement fund that is invested in international corporations is outperforming the 80% that is invested in domestic corporations? Of course not. Will I sell that 20% and invest it all in American companies? No, I'm not that stupid.

In the '80s American car companies got themselves into the same exact fix they are in now. They didn't see the writing on the wall, and continued to chase the short-term profit with poor-quality gas-guzzlers, compared to what Japan was offering. The solution lay in part with the companies becoming more competetive by offering the comsumer what they wanted, and in part by protectionist quotas levied against the Japanese companies. Either or both solutions could happen again. Personally I would love to see Americans become more competetive solely through the quality of the merchadise they offer for sale. I know we can do it. I think that the mindset of the corporate executive is going to be to run to the government for help again. Either way, we will bounce back. It's a cyclical thing, and history does repeat itself. Unfortunately, greedy, selfish and shortsighted corporate executives and union management continues to make the American worker suffer because they (management, both of the corporations and unions) fail to learn the lessons of history.

I think that the perception of American cars is just that, a perception. First let me explain I have never personally bought an import car, or for that fact anything other than a Chrysler Corporation product. With that being said, 72 is right. In the 80' and very early 90's many of the American cars did have issues. The car companies especially Chrysler worked very hard to correct that. As well as reliability they became inovative. Remember Chrysler invented the Mini van that became the most important vehicle in the last 60 years. Chrysler went all front wheel drive and had various success with the K car platform. Some of the cars were less than exciting but they were dependable, they were well built and they sold a heck of a lot of them. They certainly were not behind the curve at all. Sometime in the mid 90's the American consumer started to want bigger and faster. Chrysler actually got caught flat footed by not having any V8 in their line up (passenger cars). The imports were still making the exact same thing with styling changes. Nissan at one point was such a piss poor brand they nearly went out of business. The imports started to "juice" their cars up with some performance but didn't really change anything. If you look at it you will see that it was packaging and not inovation. The American cars were going through many changes and restyling. Gone went the K cars, and up came the Stratus, Avenger, Neon, and so forth. New, different, updated. Somehow the American public decided that the Imports were cutting edge, the imports were ahead in the game. I don't think that it is really true. I think that a good portion of import buyers have concluded that American cars don't measure up without even checking into them. The reliability issues are a missleading stat. I think an owner of an American car is quicker to judge their car less reliable and take it for service than many import owners. I know my sister owns an Altima and the car has been terrible from day one. All kinds of trouble from electrical, to fuel delivery and yet she and her husband truely believe that it is a better car than any American brand.
My tatses run Mopar only so I am not objective at all. I feel that the domestic companies are putting out some pretty damned good cars. To me the imports all look the same. I couldn't tell an Infinity, from a Lexus, from a Honda whatever going down the road.

[Stoga]

Originally Posted by 72Challenger

And for your information, the only time I've ever owned an imported vehicle was in the 1970s and early 80s when I had a Plymouth Arrow.

Well, I wasn't speaking just for you, but for anyone who wants to pump money out of the North American economy. You do defend rice rather well though.....

[72Challenger]

Originally Posted by Stoga

Well, I wasn't speaking just for you, but for anyone who wants to pump money out of the North American economy. You do defend rice rather well though.....

Stoga, you crack me up! I simply point out that the owners of a multinational company are those people, anywhere in the world, who decide to buy the stock of that company, and somehow I'm defending rice? That's really a stretch...

[Stoga]

Originally Posted by 72Challenger

Stoga, you crack me up! I simply point out that the owners of a multinational company are those people, anywhere in the world, who decide to buy the stock of that company, and somehow I'm defending rice? That's really a stretch...

And you said this as well, "The Japanese auto companies are doing their share to keep the American economy healthy."

I think it sounds pretty cracked too...

[72Challenger]

Toyota will most likely pass GM this year as the world's largest automaker. Would you rather they don't have any plants in the U.S.? At least they are giving something back. I'm simply stating the facts. How you interpret that is up to you.

[Frank]

Brian, I agree with you, here. My portfolio is very diverse, but I have stock in all three domestic, and a couple of import manufactures. By far, the best performer in that group is Toyota. GM and Ford have tanked, and DCX, while not in Junk status, isn't far away. But at least they're holding on. I've had the Domestic stocks for ever, and the import stocks for a number of years, now.
I have 8 years to retirement. Of all my auto industry stocks, right now I wouldn't back ot of my Toyota stock on a bet. Is that anti-American, or just good business?



If owning/buying an import is the yardstick for Americanism, It's should be known that the only import I've ever owned was a 1969 VW micro-bus, that I bought used. The dollars I spent on it went directly into my neighbors pocket. He replaced the VW with a 71 Plymouth Furywagon, so I guess my purchase help America's economy in a microscopic way. BTW, the VW was an excellent vehicle, when used as intended, a hippy van.