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  #1  
Old 11-27-2007, 10:50 AM
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quietdad quietdad is offline
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Default Work vs.. Prison

Just in case you ever get these two environments mixed up, this should make
things a little bit clearer. @ PRISON @ WORK
You spend the majority of your time in a 10X10 cell You spend the
majority of your time in an 8X8 cubicle
You get three meals a day fully paid for You get a break for one meal
and you have to pay for it
You get time off for good behavior You get more work for good
behavior
The guard locks and unlocks all the doors for you You must often
carry a security card and open all the doors for yourself
You can watch TV and play games You could get fired for watching TV
and playing games
You get your own toilet You have to share the toilet with some people
who pee on the seat
They allow your family and friends to visit You aren't even supposed
to speak to your family
All expenses are paid by the taxpayers with no work required You get
to pay all your expenses to go to work, and they deduct taxes from your
salary to pay for prisoners
You spend most of your life inside bars wanting to get out You spend
most of your time wanting to get out and go inside bars
You must deal with sadistic wardens They are called managers
You can talk about Jesus, and even participate in Bible Studies You'd
better not talk about Jesus or bring a Bible if you want to keep your job!
THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE!!!!


Now get back to work. You're not getting paid to check e-mails.
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  #2  
Old 11-27-2007, 07:37 PM
Dave 572 Dave 572 is offline
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Originally Posted by quietdad View Post
Just in case you ever get these two environments mixed up, this should make
things a little bit clearer. @ PRISON @ WORK

You'd better not talk about Jesus or bring a Bible if you want to keep your job!
And that's how it should be.Keep proselytizing out of the workplace.
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  #3  
Old 11-28-2007, 06:42 AM
Frankie Frankie is offline
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Originally Posted by Dave 572 View Post
And that's how it should be.Keep proselytizing out of the workplace.
Why? Does it offend you?

There is a radio guy who refers to this country as "The United States of the Offended".

I'm not aware of any law making it illegal to be offended. Are you?
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  #4  
Old 11-28-2007, 10:10 AM
Nomomoney Nomomoney is offline
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What ever happened to the constitutional right to free speech? Shouldn't that include the right to talk about the Bible and Jesus if you want to? I talk to people about it whenever I feel like it. If they don't want to listen, all they have to do is say so, then I won't talk to them about it. It's really simple, if you don't want to hear someone talk about a subject, just tell them you're not interested. Personally, I'm fascinated by the Bible and Jesus. If not for Him, I'd have been dead a few years ago.
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Old 11-28-2007, 08:38 PM
Dave 572 Dave 572 is offline
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
Why? Does it offend you?

There is a radio guy who refers to this country as "The United States of the Offended".

I'm not aware of any law making it illegal to be offended. Are you?
If someone starts proselytizing in the workplace,then yes,I'm offended.If I was interested in Fairy tale bullshit I'd read Harry Potter.

And no,I'm not.

Let's flip it around.Suppose we're working in an office type environment.In your cubicle you have religious icons,etc.You often spout off about God this, Jesus that,and all this other crap that you seem to know as fact.

And in my cubicle I have plaques,posters,etc.with the things I believe such as:"Religion is for pathetic sheep that can't think for themselves".Or,"Support your local pedophile,go to church today".Or, "Religion:Invented by the smart and rich to control the stupid and poor".

Surely someone will be offended.Guess which one?
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:05 PM
memnoch451 memnoch451 is offline
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
I'm not aware of any law making it illegal to be offended. Are you?

Justice Oliver Wendall Holmes’s famous statement that free speech rights cannot be absolute because there is no right to falsely shout ‘Fire!” in a crowded theater. Who would be shouting “Fire”? Possibly the owner, or one of his agents, in which case the owner has defrauded his customers: he sold them tickets to a play or a movie and then disrupted the show, not to mention endangered their lives. If not the owner, then one of his customers, who is violating the terms of his contract; his ticket entitles him to enjoy the show, not to disrupt it.

-cut and paste brought to you by the let
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  #7  
Old 11-28-2007, 10:11 PM
Frankie Frankie is offline
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Originally Posted by memnoch451 View Post
Justice Oliver Wendall Holmes’s famous statement that free speech rights cannot be absolute because there is no right to falsely shout ‘Fire!” in a crowded theater. Who would be shouting “Fire”? Possibly the owner, or one of his agents, in which case the owner has defrauded his customers: he sold them tickets to a play or a movie and then disrupted the show, not to mention endangered their lives. If not the owner, then one of his customers, who is violating the terms of his contract; his ticket entitles him to enjoy the show, not to disrupt it.

-cut and paste brought to you by the letter J
Someone yelling fire in a crowded threater wouldn't offend me.
...Might frighten the shit out of me, though.
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  #8  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:40 AM
Jim 65B Jim 65B is offline
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Someone yelling fire in a crowded threater wouldn't offend me.
...Might frighten the shit out of me, though.

More likely it would get you injured or killed, I think that might offend you just a bit.
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  #9  
Old 11-29-2007, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave 572 View Post
If someone starts proselytizing in the workplace,then yes,I'm offended.If I was interested in Fairy tale bullshit I'd read Harry Potter.

And no,I'm not.

Let's flip it around.Suppose we're working in an office type environment.In your cubicle you have religious icons,etc.You often spout off about God this, Jesus that,and all this other crap that you seem to know as fact.

And in my cubicle I have plaques,posters,etc.with the things I believe such as:"Religion is for pathetic sheep that can't think for themselves".Or,"Support your local pedophile,go to church today".Or, "Religion:Invented by the smart and rich to control the stupid and poor".

Surely someone will be offended.Guess which one?
You're ability to be offended in no way relieves me of my freedom of speech OR ANY OTHER FREEDOM.
As for your cubicle, if you wish to surround yourself with that, go to it, it's YOUR cubicle, it's SUPPOSED to be a free country. The problem seems to be that because YOU are offended, that somehow gives you the right to CONTROL ME....WRONG!!
People have fought and died for their rights and freedoms in this country, and just cause you're so intolerant that you can't stand the idea that someone believes things that you don't, you still DO NOT have the right to take away my right of speech, association or any other of my rights as a citizen of this country. Maybe it's better if you just learn to be more tolerant.
Your justifications for your prejudice do not give you any additional rights or power over anyone else, so may as well toss them on the trash heap and learn to get along with everyone else.
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2007, 07:33 AM
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More likely it would get you injured or killed, I think that might offend you just a bit.
Getting injured might be a reason to be offended. I promise that in such a situation, if I were killed, I wouldn't be offended.

In any case, what does that have to do with talking about God? Is the concept so offensive that he can't be talked about in public?

Also, Daves senario with his anti religious posters wouldn't "offend" me. I might think his posters are in bad taste, but I wouldn't find them offensive. Further, seeing his posters would prompt a conversation about them. So essentially I would be more than willing to discuss his religious beliefs, or lack of them, with him, but he wouldn't be willing, to do the same about my beliefs. So I guess what he's saying is that it would be alright if he was ATTEMPTING to offend someone with his religious opinion, but just the presence of mine offends him.
Personally, I don't care what anyone's religious beliefs or opinions, are. I've never told anyone of any faith (or lack of it) that they need to change. I might not agree with them, but, imo, your faith (or lack of it) is your business.
I also have no problem discussing it. My faith is strong enough to talk with people who disagree with me about it, and not be offended, or shaken by their opinions.
Usually when there is a difference of opinion in a religious conversations, the conversation is pretty short, anyway. The less tolerant athiests will resort to insults like: "Religion is for pathetic sheep that can't think for themselves"....
and so on.

We've seen these comments posted before, by others. They make a bigger statement about the person making those comments, then the institution or people they are attempting to redicule.

Nomomoney hit the nail on the head, here: "I talk to people about it whenever I feel like it. If they don't want to listen, all they have to do is say so, then I won't talk to them about it. It's really simple, if you don't want to hear someone talk about a subject, just tell them you're not interested".

Stoga nailed here:
As for your cubicle, if you wish to surround yourself with that, go to it, it's YOUR cubicle, it's SUPPOSED to be a free country. The problem seems to be that because YOU are offended, that somehow gives you the right to CONTROL ME....WRONG!!
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  #11  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:47 AM
moparman92 moparman92 is offline
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This Convo In here reminds me of something my 6-8 grade principle said "Everyone morning we will say the Pledge of Allegiance and have a moment of prayer if you do not want to participate then keep you mouth shut and be quiet for the few moments it takes for the 80 percent of us that do."
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  #12  
Old 11-29-2007, 09:48 AM
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moparman92: The difference being when you were in the 6-8th grade, you were subject to that principle's discipline and supervision in his school and you were a minor.
Your rights were limited and in fact will be limited until you turn 18.
After you turn 18 and someone tries or DOES tell you what you can or can not say, who you can say it to and in what capacity, I'm fairly sure you'll see things differently.
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  #13  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:12 AM
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"The less tolerant athiests will resort to insults like: "Religion is for pathetic sheep that can't think for themselves"....
and so on."


Are you generalizing all free thinkers into your less tolerant category? I believe that makes you the intolerant one. "Atheists" are not burdened with Dogma making logic a viable tool. I would love to converse with any and all believers but it always turns out to be an act of frustration when faith is interjected into a topic requiring fact and logic. Maybe someone can answer one question for me. After spending 8 years in Catholic school I am still unclear on exactly who the devil is? Logic(here we go again) tells me that he either has to be a working partner of God or is actually his 4th incarnation. And, where did the bad souls go before Lucifer fell from grace? (If that's what actually happened as was taught in my Catholic school). Am I the only one who sees that God and the Devil HAVE TO BE ONE IN THE SAME if you are going to believe the Heaven/Hell thing? "Religion is the opiate of the masses".
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  #14  
Old 11-29-2007, 01:34 PM
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Thanks for the comment Frankie. And Dave, I'm not a person who is easily offended by much of anything. We all have the right to free will and free choice. I just think we can all agree to disagree about a variety of subjects. God or religion just happen to be a couple of the subjects. I'm a believer and a lot of people are not. That's our choices, plain and simple. I'm not trying to get anyone to believe in anything, I'm just stating my choices. I've always believed that actions speak louder than words, so I just let my actions represent who I am. I hope you all have a great day and upcoming week end.
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  #15  
Old 11-29-2007, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobr View Post
Are you generalizing all free thinkers into your less tolerant category?
No, I'm not. That would be an incorrect assumption on your part. As I have stated MANY times. There are no absolutes, and I don't speak in absolutes.


Quote:
I believe that makes you the intolerant one.
A belief based on your incorrect assumption.
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  #16  
Old 11-29-2007, 01:44 PM
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The only absolute I believe in is the fact that we all die. That's an absolute we can't get around. Agree or disagree??
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Old 11-29-2007, 01:47 PM
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Very good. Agreed.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:21 PM
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No, I'm not. That would be an incorrect assumption on your part. As I have stated MANY times. There are no absolutes, and I don't speak in absolutes.




A belief based on your incorrect assumption.



"The less tolerant athiests will resort to insults like: "Religion is for pathetic sheep that can't think for themselves"....
and so on."



My incorrect assumption was based on this quote which, if read literally, states that atheists are less tolerant. Maybe you should have written your idea as follows " The atheists who are less tolerant will..." -Bob
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:26 PM
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Im the type person that if I want to say somthing I will say it and I will let the other person do that and I'm fine with that everyone has their own beliefs. Now if somone wants to tell me I CANNOT believe in god because its wrong or not true and tries to take my bible away then I get angry. I hear people talk about not beliving in god and I dont mind nor do I run up to them saying their going to hell but i expect the same in return from them when I am praying at a football game, race,ect.
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:33 PM
Nomomoney Nomomoney is offline
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I'm in agreement with you moparman92. No place for double standards. I had a room mate from Greenville back when I was at UT in 76. Name was Phil Connell. He was a God fearing man too. Real cool guy.
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:53 PM
moparman92 moparman92 is offline
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yeah glad somone agrees with me i would rather somone walk up and punch me in the face than say somthing to my face and after I leave tell everyone somthing else
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  #22  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:40 PM
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Also, Daves senario with his anti religious posters wouldn't "offend" me. I might think his posters are in bad taste, but I wouldn't find them offensive. Further, seeing his posters would prompt a conversation about them. So essentially I would be more than willing to discuss his religious beliefs, or lack of them, with him, but he wouldn't be willing, to do the same about my beliefs.
Bingo! My cubicle scenario was just that-a scenario and my comments just an example.Believers would take the posters,plaques, etc. one of 2 ways.They would see them and guess that I'm not interested in hearing anything religious.Or,as Frankie would do use the opportunity to discuss each others beliefs,which is always my goal.I'm very interested in why people think the way they do when it comes to religion,as long as it's a logical conversation.But as Bobr said,it's just about impossible.Often times it turns confrontational and enemies are made.

Quote:
So I guess what he's saying is that it would be alright if he was ATTEMPTING to offend someone with his religious opinion, but just the presence of mine offends him.
That would not be my intent to offend unless they were asked to stop proselytizing and continued to do so.At that point I don't think they're entitled to free speech.Consider the situation if it were reversed and I kept making comments about their faith.

Quote:
Usually when there is a difference of opinion in a religious conversations, the conversation is pretty short, anyway.
I agree,but in my experience it's been the lack of acceptance of logic,facts,and scientific data by the believers.
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  #23  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:41 PM
Frankie Frankie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobr View Post
"The less tolerant athiests will resort to insults like: "Religion is for pathetic sheep that can't think for themselves"....
and so on."



My incorrect assumption was based on this quote which, if read literally, states that atheists are less tolerant. Maybe you should have written your idea as follows " The atheists who are less tolerant will..." -Bob
Doesn't matter what you based it on, your assumption is incorrect, plan and simple. I know what I wrote, how I wrote it, and what I meant by it. The fact that you misunderstood my comment, is not my error.
Maybe you should look at it in a different way. The phrase, "less tolerant" would indicate a comparison. Your error was that you decided that the comparison was between athiests, and others. Where as I was comparing atheists within their own group (ie; tolerant atheists vs. less tolerant atheists). Your prefered phrasing not withstanding.

I hope my pointing that out to you doesn't offend you.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:02 PM
Dave 572 Dave 572 is offline
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The problem seems to be that because YOU are offended, that somehow gives you the right to CONTROL ME....WRONG!!
And somehow your religious and moral superiority gives you and other evangelicals the right to try to "save" me?

I've got news for you since you seem to be implying you don't want to be controlled.You are being controlled.At some point in your life you were taught and told what to think and you still think that way.That's what religion does.Now I'm curious,how can you honestly say you are not under control and/or don't want to be controlled? It's a fair question,is it not?
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:14 PM
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Maybe someone can answer one question for me. After spending 8 years in Catholic school I am still unclear on exactly who the devil is? Logic(here we go again) tells me that he either has to be a working partner of God or is actually his 4th incarnation. And, where did the bad souls go before Lucifer fell from grace? (If that's what actually happened as was taught in my Catholic school). Am I the only one who sees that God and the Devil HAVE TO BE ONE IN THE SAME if you are going to believe the Heaven/Hell thing? "Religion is the opiate of the masses".
Bob,

I also attended a Catholic elementary school.I didn't get that God/Devil was one in the same,but rather 2 distinct entities.The story I received was that Lucifer was an angel in heaven alongside God.Lucifer did something offensive to God and was cast out of heaven.They are therefore intertwined-you can't believe in one without believing in the other.
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Old 11-30-2007, 01:21 AM
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I believe in God. No person or group controls me in any way. Thats why it's called faith. It is the simplest thing there is. Easier than getting a slurpee at 7/11.

Science cannot prove it did not happen. There is some faith in evolution too.
I have a hard time thinking all life on this planet came from rocks and water.

Oh BTW not a very good pension plan in prison. So go big if your going there!
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave 572 View Post
I agree,but in my experience it's been the lack of acceptance of logic,facts,and scientific data by the believers.
That's why it's called "faith".

Some find it after a trumatic experience, some find it when they need comfort that logic, facts, and scientific data, don't supply. Some never doubt it, and others never find it, while others need to be able to reconsile it on paper, while others feel it in their hearts.

You either have it, or you don't.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:40 AM
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Doesn't matter what you based it on, your assumption is incorrect, plan and simple. I know what I wrote, how I wrote it, and what I meant by it. The fact that you misunderstood my comment, is not my error.
Maybe you should look at it in a different way. The phrase, "less tolerant" would indicate a comparison. Your error was that you decided that the comparison was between athiests, and others. Where as I was comparing atheists within their own group (ie; tolerant atheists vs. less tolerant atheists). Your prefered phrasing not withstanding.

I hope my pointing that out to you doesn't offend you.

No offense taken but let me advise you that if you are going to put an idea into public print then you better understand that how it's phrased is critical. I can't read your mind so what you actually write is the only material I have to work with. When you stated "less tolerant atheists" you said literally that all atheists are less tolerant regardless of what you intended your meaning to be. I gave you one example of how it could have been correctly written. Now you can have the last word. -Bob
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:01 AM
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That's why it's called "faith".

Some find it after a trumatic experience, some find it when they need comfort that logic, facts, and scientific data, don't supply. Some never doubt it, and others never find it, while others need to be able to reconsile it on paper, while others feel it in their hearts.

You either have it, or you don't.



Count me in the latter. It's funny how blind faith is viewed positively in the religious aspect but negatively in just about everything else. If you decide to buy a car from E Bay are you going to just negotiate a price then just send the money to the seller or are you going to want assurances that you will get what you paid for. These assurances are also called facts. It's o.k. to assume that God had no beginning and he will have no end(the single greatest mystery of faith) but not to assume the car you purchased will be the one delivered. The human being progresses in life within certain developmental stages. Your five year old, for instance, believes in Santa and the Easter bunny. At five years old this thinking is normal and acceptable. At some point your 5 year old will enter another stage of development that will allow him to question the existance of the tooth fairy. This is called logic. Although all men and women are created equal they do not all develop equally. Some will never see that blind faith is illogical and others will begin to question things that are in opposition to their logical development. The fear of death for most people is a substantial one. Human beings have a hard time coming to grips with the fact that they are only going to be alive for a finite time. This, along with the developmental disparities of human beings have allowed the notion of eternal life through faith to thrive. Like it or not this is the un P.C. explanation of faith based religion.
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave 572 View Post
Bob,

I also attended a Catholic elementary school.I didn't get that God/Devil was one in the same,but rather 2 distinct entities.The story I received was that Lucifer was an angel in heaven alongside God.Lucifer did something offensive to God and was cast out of heaven.They are therefore intertwined-you can't believe in one without believing in the other.


That's right. The church teaches that God and the devil are two seperate entities. This, however has no logic(as if any of this does). Let's start from the beginning. I assume at one point God was all alone. Since he alone created all else he must have been at some point alone until his creative juices began flowing. Then God gets bored and decides to create some angels to share this idylic place called heaven. I guess at this point there must not be any hell because without Lucifer there would be no one to keep the gates. So God creates Lucifer but because God is omnipotent he must have known that Lucifer was going to fall from grace. However, since God is perfect how could he knowingly create an imperfect being?? So, two things here are illogical. One is that God creates an imperfect being and two that must have been his intent. But why? God is all caring and all loving so why would he create something that would be damned to eternal abyss? Answer. So he could have a place to send the souls that have displeased him. Why would he need such a place when all he has to do is create everything perfectly in his image and voila! no more problem. Oh ya. I forgot the old mainstay to answer this question. FREE WILL. God created everyone with free will. He also must have thrown in evil, malice, ect, ect because without these built in character flaws the link is severed and we are right back to everything and every one being perfect. That's not what we have, though, is it? The rest of the fabrication is a feeble and unbelievable attempt to explain the unexplainable. So, believers keep believing and I will keep questioning but the God/devil connection seems pretty obvious to me.
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