cam deg issues

[73PWRWGN]

So Ive figured out my heating issues with all your guys help... Thanx.

Now I get the rig running well with my bro and he's looking at me funny while he times this thing. He has 20 deg advance @ Idle w/29 deg @2200 rpm 44 deg @2600 w/full vac. I cant get the 35 Initial or the 50 total . He asked again (1,000,000th time) Why a reman?
And I'm shaking my head also. The he askes what cam do you have? Well S&S installed a elgin E-937-P???

.421 INT-.444EXH

108 DEG INT-116EXH

SAE TIMING
26 BTC - 72 ABC - 75 BC - 33 ATC

.050 TIMING
-6 BTC - 30 ABC - 43 BBC - -9 ATC

DURATION IS
SAE 278 INT - 288 EXH
.050 204 INT - 214 EXH

Now I may have asked for this problem by asking for a 427 or 429 int -
and a 440's exh w/a 114 centerline for mildness and reliability.(I have a toy this is my runaround truck)

Now could they have just thrown the cam in with out deg it in if needed.

It idles O.K. but shutters a little on take off and dies out in high 3000 rpms bout 3700.

I'm not just posting every little thing. weve been trouble shooting this since wendsday. engine has 122 miles on it

carbs good, fuel pressure is awsome, ignition ruled out, new dist orange box accell coil w/wires vac pod on dist

I'm really kicking myself for not double checking the setup before install

I'm falling back on my old thought mentallity of you want it done right do it yourself.

Also does the mp4452782 require any cam timing?

Thanx guys

[passing you]

Mopar says about 2* advance on the cam timing so install 112*cl if you want.

[passing you]

oh, just disconect the vac advance while timing it, looking for 36*-38* advance @ 3000+rpm with a big block and 32*-35*@3000+rpm w/ small block

But thats a general it might run better with +/- timing.

Once you've timed it with the vac advance pluged/unhooked then plug it back in and see how much timing @3000+rpm it gives you and test drive it

you wanna see anywhere from 48*-52* total w/ vac advance hooked up, but check it the 1st way mentioned beforehand so you know how much the vac advance is giving you as to not be excessive and mask a too little mechanical timing situation.

[wilks3]

If you are only getting 9* mech advance somethings not right. If your figures are right, to get 35* total timing (no vacuum), your initial will be at 26* BTDC!
I think you need to look at the dist and see if somethings hanging up or indeed it does only have 9* mech advance.
To me it needs around 10* to 14* initial with about 20*(crank degrees) mech
to add up to about 35*. You get the other from vacuum pot.
The 35* needs to be in between 2000 and 2400 RPM.

[73PWRWGN]

Originally Posted by wilks3

If you are only getting 9* mech advance somethings not right. If your figures are right, to get 35* total timing (no vacuum), your initial will be at 26* BTDC!
I think you need to look at the dist and see if somethings hanging up or indeed it does only have 9* mech advance.
To me it needs around 10* to 14* initial with about 20*(crank degrees) mech
to add up to about 35*. You get the other from vacuum pot.
The 35* needs to be in between 2000 and 2400 RPM.

I cant get any more than 10* mech advance @ 2200 rpm or maybe my dist is advancing aready at idle and mech advance is just maxing out at 2200. And thats why Im falling short even with excessive timing at idle. But ya its a mopar performance advance curve dist but there might be a hang up in it.

And ypu think the cam degree is o.k.? They made the cam swap prior to shipping. and that kinda made me wonder.

[passing you]

Ok the mp distributor mechanical advance is adjustable.

So this is what you do.....
Advance the timing so the starter kicks back or can barley turn it over, note timing and back it off 2*. Then inside the distributor is an adjustment to limit the amount of mechanical advance, you wanna adjust it so that you only get around 36* @3000+rpm total timing.

You might find yourself with 25* initial so you might only need 10*-12* mech advance so limit the mech adv to only add 10-12* .
Then mess with the vac advance ,
making sure that will initial+mechaniacal+vac advance you end up around 50* total.

[aarracer]

73PWRWGN

Is the rotor/reluctor shaft freely moving on the ditributor shaft? They can seize.

[73PWRWGN]

Originally Posted by passing you

Ok the mp distributor mechanical advance is adjustable.

So this is what you do.....
Advance the timing so the starter kicks back or can barley turn it over, note timing and back it off 2*. Then inside the distributor is an adjustment to limit the amount of mechanical advance, you wanna adjust it so that you only get around 36* @3000+rpm total timing.

You might find yourself with 25* initial so you might only need 10*-12* mech advance so limit the mech adv to only add 10-12* .
Then mess with the vac advance ,
making sure that will initial+mechaniacal+vac advance you end up around 50* total.

I was not aware there was adjustments in the dist, just springs. or is that what you ment?

[73PWRWGN]

Originally Posted by aarracer

73PWRWGN

Is the rotor/reluctor shaft freely moving on the ditributor shaft? They can seize.

no, they are new and purtty

[DJM]

You are confusing cam timing and ignition timing. Two different things and really don't effect each other. Forget the cam and consentrate on the ignition. Unless you have recurved your distributor to be fully advanced at 22 or 2500 RPM's you cannot effectively adjsut the timing for total advance at those RPM's as the mechanical advance will still be advancing well past those RPM's. Either recurve your distributor or set teh timing to where you get your best performance and leave well enough alone. you can advance the timing till it pings under load and then back it off till it doesn't and it will be fine.

[73PWRWGN]

Originally Posted by DJM

You are confusing cam timing and ignition timing. Two different things and really don't effect each other. Forget the cam and consentrate on the ignition. Unless you have recurved your distributor to be fully advanced at 22 or 2500 RPM's you cannot effectively adjsut the timing for total advance at those RPM's as the mechanical advance will still be advancing well past those RPM's. Either recurve your distributor or set teh timing to where you get your best performance and leave well enough alone. you can advance the timing till it pings under load and then back it off till it doesn't and it will be fine.

My concern is who put the cam in. What if they didn't degree it correctly?
the dots on the gears were facing each other on a single keyway double roller. with that considered why do i have to set it at 15*-20* initial just to drive without hesitation and stumble then be limited on mech at 2200 rpm

Im starting to think my dist is stuck in advance a little, and no I didnt recurve the dist.

what is the symptoms of improperly degreeing a cam?

[DJM]

The cam will have nothing to do with the ignition timing.
If the cam is not degreed with the degree wheel (not many are)and just installed by the dot (which most are) the dots should be lined up with the crankshaft and 12 oclock and the camshaft gear at 6 oclock. If you take the cover off and the cam gear is at 6 oclock and the crank gear is at 6 oclock that is alright too as the crankshaft turns once for ever 2 times the camshaft does.
As for ignition timing the distributor on a Mopar will either be in the slot in the intermeediat gear right or out 180 degrees at which it will not run. The distributor is installed with the number one piston at TDC firing. For consistancy sake the slot in the intermediat shaft is parrallel with the crankshaft install the distributor and the rotor should be pointing forward and the number one wire installed in the cap at the terminal where the rotor is pointing adn the firing order followed around the cap.
In reallity the slot in the intermediat shaft can be in any position and the rotor can be pointed at any terminal as long as the number one wire is installed where the rotor is pointing and the piston is at TDC firing when you do it.

[73PWRWGN]

[QUOTE=DJM;776913]The cam will have nothing to do with the ignition timing.
If the cam is not degreed with the degree wheel (not many are)and just installed by the dot (which most are) the dots should be lined up with the crankshaft and 12 oclock and the camshaft gear at 6 oclock. If you take the cover off and the cam gear is at 6 oclock and the crank gear is at 6 oclock that is alright too as the crankshaft turns once for ever 2 times the camshaft does.
As for ignition timing the distributor on a Mopar will either be in the slot in the intermeediat gear right or out 180 degrees at which it will not run. The distributor is installed with the number one piston at TDC firing. For consistancy sake the slot in the intermediat shaft is parrallel with the crankshaft install the distributor and the rotor should be pointing forward and the number one wire installed in the cap at the terminal where the rotor is pointing adn the firing order followed around the cap.
In reallity the slot in the intermediat shaft can be in any position and the rotor can be pointed at any terminal as long as the number one wire is installed where the rotor is pointing and the piston is at TDC firing when you do it.

I have a fouled up dist.

Just yanked the other mopar performance dist out of the plymouth and set it into the powerwagon. First the location of the vac pod in relation to my coil mount is significantlly different on the old one. it fired and I re timed it, Acceleration is smoother and advanced to 32* @2200 rpm. With vac hooked up I'm 49* @ 2200 rpm.

The one out of my plymouth is 6 years old. the one giving me problems is bran spankin new. I have a feeling that Mancini is not going to help me out on this situation. regardless of I am very thankfull to you and all that posted to my problem.

I'm not done yet I still need to run it to be 100%.

[DJM]

Glad that you found it out. I am sure that it can be made to work.

[73PWRWGN]

yep the distributor was it and this engine gave me alot of problems for being remaned longblock with a joke warranty. I'm glad it was'nt block related or assembly flaw. After replacing head gaskets and the crap oil pump and timing chain it performs really nice.

Again thanx to all that posted tech tips and moral support