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#1
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440/Bent rods/broken rockers
Hi guys;
I just purchased a 72 w/a built 440. Last week the motor died on me just cruising down the street. When I turned it over it was banging in one cylinder Thunk, ker Thunk, Thunk an so forth. Thinking the piston was hitting a valve, I towed it into the shop & pulled the valve covers. Two rockers were in pieces and two rods were bent like pretzels. The other rods were all nicked or had a groove and were damaged. Compression was: Left 155/165/170/170 Right170/160/190/175 190 was the bent rods. My mechanic tells me the cam is too hot (too much lift) and is mismatched with the pistons and torque converter. He wants to rebuild. Can you give me some advice? Here are the specs on the 440 bored 30 over: Crane Cam #644561 Intake @ Cam 336 @ Valve504 Exhaust @ Cam 352 Valve528 Rocker Arm Ratio 1.5 Spring Requierments: Closed 120# @ 1.875 Open 318# @ 1.372 Arias Pistons Compression 11:1 0 dome/flat top 2 pocket 40/32 Aluminum 4 1/2 stroke 4.350 bore 6.768 rod length 8.175 compression displacement Isky valve springs Height 1.60" 400# per inch 135 closed/395 open. Torque converter stall speed 1400-1500. Intake valves Manley #11890/ Exaust #11891 In talking to Isky today they feel that the springs are within the correct range. If they were not stiff enough the piston would hit the valves. The cause of failure was probably over reving/red lineing by the prior owner or someone test driving the car before my purchase. I haven't had it running long enough to enjoy it. I'm most concerned with mismatched components. Other than changing the cam & pistons (total rebuild) or an engine exchange what are my options? Higher stall speed on the torque converter? 2000+? How do I make it streetable? Thanks for your help! Barry B. |
#2
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Thats a very long stroke. Sounds like the pistons hit the valves. Yank the head with the bent pushrods to see. Clearance check ALL valves to pistons. Also, if you spun a rod bearing, it will allow the piston to rise further in the cylinder. KASHMUCK!!!!!! Good luck..........djs
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#3
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Owch!
I'd have to aggree about the clearance problems, but I don't think it's due to too much lift. Arias pistons usually have lots of valve pocket clearance built into them. And your lift is nowhere approching problems if everything is right. To me, it sounds like the cam timing is out of phase. I'd check the cam setting. You'll want to take off the heads to look inside, and a little plastersine will go a long way in finding out your clearance problems. Good luck!
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#4
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P.S.
You may want to check that the right pistons are in the proper bores, ie., the intake pocket for the intake valve........
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#5
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Sounds like someone put alot of money in the engine! I would be good to tear it down, or at least pull the pan and check the bearings! Check the piston relation ship also. Most aftermarket pistons are speicific on left and right hand pistons! Also degree the cam after inspection of the cam and lifters! It would be bad to destroy a fresh 440 like that them pistons alone may go for $500 at least!
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#6
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Check your piston to valve clearance,you can do it with the engine still together,bring the piston to tdc,then remove the valve springs,be careful NOT to drop them in the cylinder this could happen if it has deep valve reliefs,for safety put a zip tie on the last keeper groove,then with a dial indicator you can measure the clearance,you could approximate it with a micrometer.I tend to doubt you have a clearance prob with that cams lift spec,its possible the lifter preload was too great,shoot for .010 there.But you do have alot of compression for Iron heads,if so you had better be using high octane fuel,prob 100 or so.Also do a leakdown to be sure you didnt bend a valve, If your mechanic thinks thats too much lift Id find someone who is more familair with Mopars.......PRO....
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#7
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I am surprised at the 4 1/2 inch stroke claim. First I'd do what the other guys suggested - but it's possible that you got hosed by the guy you bought it from.
What I'm trying to say is, if it REALLY has a 4 1/2 inch stroke, it is a VERY expensive engine, 'cause those cranks don't grow in the wrecking yards. If it is what the seller claims, then that's cool. But... if it is... the seller should have all kinds of receipts from the parts supplier and machine shop. He should give them to you with no excuses like - "my ex-(wife/girlfriend) threw them out" - "the dog ate them", etc. If he doesn't have the paperwork, he should be able to adequately verify for you where he bought what, and who did the machine work. I once bought a boat from someone that I liked and trusted, and the same thing happened to me that happened to you. When the scattered engine was analyzed, it was nothing like what he had presented it as. "cavaet emptor" I sure hope it works out for you. |
#8
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Like the guys said, a 4.5 stroke is .750 and would be very expensive. I have never seen anything above .625 (5/8),in a stock RB block, but that's not to say it couldn't be done. There would be significant rod clearance issues at the bottom of the cylinder bores. In a RB block and a stock length rod, clearance at the top would also be minimal.
I may not have read this correctly. Were the valves damaged? When you say rods, do you mean connecting rods, or possibly pushrods? Should the pistons have hit the heads, the valves will be damaged, or if valve reliefs are mismatched....the same result. If the engine had run for a time, pistons striking the head or valves would have been noticed immediately. If there was milling of heads or decking of the block, pushrod length is certainly a big issue, and a very common source of problems. What type of rocker? Stamped steel or nodular iron adjustable? Aftermarket? We can all figure this one out with a little more info. |
#9
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I think Doug's right. That's a whole lot of engine. How much did you pay for it?
The combo is too much for the street. If the heads are iron, what sort of port work have they had? They will need a bunch , to go with that cam and compression. The converter is an obvious mismatch. You'll want at least 3000 of stall for that. It seems like someones bought a bunch of speed parts and just thrown them together. That said, the suggestion of taking to a knowledgable shop for a teardown is a good one. Not just a normal repair shop, somplace that works on speed engines often. |
#10
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All true stuff. I was thinking about the heads, myself, but I figured I had already opened a bigganuf canaworms.
I the stroke is correct - it needs (and should already have) MAMMOUTH ports and valves. |
#11
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Hummm sounds like a Rubic's Engine to me.....I'd take a Saturday and drive North to Creswell Or. and have Bob look at it..he'll tell you what you got and what's wrong in about 20 minutes or less.....sorry I just don't know anyone in your area I could recommend.
Creswell is about 250 miles north of Medford, a good days drive, if you have an RV load it up early sat. morning get to Bob's have it checked out and head back South 8 Miles to Cottage Grove and take in the Dirt Track races and watch his work kick ass. We have 5 acres right next door to the track so your welcome to camp there for the night, lemme know and I'll set it up with Bob, meet you there and take you back to the camp ground. I called Bob and he was amazed at the numbers you spec'd, he'd be happy to check it out for free, and teach you how to do it. ...or.... You may want to visit your local 1/4 mile bad ass dirt track and go into the pit's, talk to some of the Guy's about their machinists.....make a few calls and see if you can develope a relationship with someone that knows Mopar race motors. Most Guy's who are willing to work with you will offer to check it out and give you a report usually for nothing if they really want your business. Sorry that's all I can offer.... Did I mention that we won a WoO trophy dash at your track a few years back....Took out both Kinser's and "The Dude" for the checkers :-)) put's Petaluma high on my list. |
#12
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finding good machine shop
I built a 451 in 1995 installed it in a Challenger and left Calif, and the machine shop I had trused for 20 years. I cut corners with the valve train, just to get by all the machine work to install the 440 crank in the 400 cost me over 4,000 with parts. But it was done on time, after the pushrods bent I pulled the heads and checked it all out and took the 906's to a local shop here in Chandler Az that was recomended. took 5 weeks to get a new valve and they f*ed up my heads, took 2 years until I could get the cash to try again. I used isky pushrods and and isky rockers, it took forever to set up the side to side clearance and I got one very far off, I drove for a while and pulled it back down for inspect and saw the ring ( grove ) that the poster refered to, this was from flex at higher RPM I did not leave enough clearence from the casting flack to the pushrod, I cleaned this all out redid the side clearence and lived happly ever after.... Just got text page from 77413 he has sold the stock to buy the car with so this is the end of my story with my 451....
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#13
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EEEEW!
Man this sounds like one serious can of worms. I didn't read into the big arm. Correct me please if I'm wrong, but shouldn't you be able to determine if there's a 3/4in. stroke just by looking at the oil pan. I think it should have the external oil line since, with this kind of stroke there's no room for the stock pipe-pickup. The counter weights are into the threads at more than 3/8in.?
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#14
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You are absolutely correct - it would have to be externally oiled, no clearance for a pickup. The block would have to have some major clearancing work to it also. With factory heads, etc. I would be AMAZED if it was that big of a stroker. I'm sure he was just misinformed and its a stock crank.
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#15
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Yep.
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#16
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440/Bent rods/broken rockers
The crank was ground 10/10. The general consenses seems to be that the valves & pistons were not damaged and the 190 cylinder was the broken lifter & bent rod. If I replace all the pushrods & the 4 lifters will bringing the stall speed up to 3000+ prevent this from happening again? What modifications can be done with these components?
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#17
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It is unlikely that the stall speed will have any effect on the engine destruct point.
What makes you think it might?? |
#18
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your installed spring height is 1.600?!!! I would go and double check this, and most importantly check coil bind height.
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#19
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Fat Bastard...your absolutely correct |
#20
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Until you pull the head off, all you're going to get is educated guesses.
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#21
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!
I agree completely. All of your problems center around the head. Remove it and see what's happened. It will also give you an idication of what the engine has been built up with, and how, ie. piston type, comp. ra. deck height, stroke.
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#22
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pcb1 - have you pulled the head yet?
If you have, what's the deal on your stroke? Is it a 4 1/2 inch stroker? Answers to your questions are based on the degree of modification in your engine, so we need to know in order to be accurate. I'm going to be down in your area next week, and I'd be happy to drop by and help out. Let me know if you'd like me to. |
#23
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Hey Cuda, I resemble that remark!
FB |
#24
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Yes it's a 4 1/2. I am awaiting parts from crain that shipped last week. We haven't pulled the head, but we will replace the OEM pushrods & rockers with the reccomended crain parts, adjust the valves and hope when we start it there are no thunking noises. Thanks to everyone and if you guys have any other advice, please email.
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#25
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I'm knocking on wood, crossing my toes, avoiding black cats, putting all jobs requiring green vinyl on hold, throwing salt over my left shoulder, walking around my ladder and not eating peanuts until you get it fired......I'll email Skuza and have him rub the Monkey's belly for you......
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#26
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You can uncross your toes now. The pushhrods the experts at Crain sent were 1/2" too short and for rollers, so I returned them and they will have to custom make them. I have adjustable OEM rockers. The motor is for real. The previous owner put 7K into it & I have the build sheet and all the reciepts.
The pushrods were Isky 1633B & valve springs Isky 8005-A. Intake valves are Manly 11890 & exhaust 11891. Anyone have an engineering degree out there? The engine builder probably cleaned up his inventory on this one. I just want to make it work so I don't have to worry about blowing it up. Any of you experts have any ideas? |
#27
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Nope. I am unsubscribing from this thread.
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#28
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Sorry to see you go, Doug. Maybe I'll have an easier problem later on.
Thanks, Barry B. |
#29
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Twisted Sister
PCB1. I'm pretty sure Doug is just funnin' us. Steer clear of experts. They're usually self-proclaimed. I'm pretty sure the guys here can walk you through most anything. Just be explicit in what you have and where you want to go.
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#30
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Thanks to all you guys for your support. We buttoned it up a week ago & it runs like a bear. The timing was at 0 & is now at 15/30. I seem to be getting a ticking, not quite a knock from one cylinder. You can hear it thru the exhaust and it is more pronounced on a cold start. I think it might be this 91 octane not agreeing with 11:1 compression. If I use a octane booster & it doesn't go away, any suggestions?
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