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#1
02-16-2003, 07:53 PM
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grey oil + sludge stuffs??
ok, i'm kinda ticked... drained my oil, and it's GREY?! WTF? on the bottom of the bucket, it's like sludge, BUT, it is very slick! yet, the oil is GREY! not only that, the 20w-50 is as thin as WATER! (just shut it down, it's hot!)
now i'm going to drop my oil pan, check the screen in my pickup tube, put CLEAN solvent in the pan, bolt it up (not tight), and use my primer shaft to circulate the oil through the motor to get all the sludge out. then i'll do the same thing with 10w-40, or maybe some thinner stuffs, and get the solvent out. after thats done, i'll put 20w-50 back in it. any ideas of what would make the oil grey and sludgy? any help is ALWAYS appreciated! THANX! 
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#3
02-16-2003, 09:41 PM
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checked the water level before i dropped the pan, and it's still full. plus, my anitfreeze is orange (Havoline Extended Life). the oil actually turns green and nasty smelling when mixed with anti-freeze (unfortunately i know from experience...)
it COULD be from blow-by, but it would probably take a lot of it! i have my rings gapped as following top: .008" 2nd: .0045" gapless rail on 2nd: at least .015" all oil rails: at least .015" this is what the instructions said, so i gapped accordingly... so far it does actually seem like my compression risen (compared to .023" gap with reg chrome moly rings), so wouldn't there be little blow-by? thanx though... |
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#4
02-16-2003, 10:02 PM
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If there is water in the oil it's usually a milky brown color or the color you said with the orange coolant. I wonder if the grey color is from metal material as you say there is sludge in the bottom??? Have you cut open the oil filter yet? Doesn't sound good though.......
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#5
02-16-2003, 10:52 PM
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Is this the new engine you have built? If it is, it could be the moly lube used on the cam and/or other parts.
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#6
02-17-2003, 09:18 AM
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yes, this is my new engine, which was only run for a week after about 4 hours of shop tuning + running...
heres an update  it's gonna get ANOTHER overhaul... we found metal in the pan, and it's only gonna get worse as we run it, so we're gonna save money and do the bearings yet again  i kept EVERYTHING superclean, and kept it under 3,000 RPM the whole time i drove it. BUT, the oil pressure kept going down (10psi at idle) as i drove it. my best bet, was the 3 1/2 hours of running while that damned plug was out. besides the lifters in that oil galley, where all does the oil go from that particular galley? (plug where dist goes in) does it go to cam bearings? if so, i can understand that....course, that sux cause it would have started to come apart as soon as the break-in lube wore off... this pisses me off  .... well, i guess i know where them ****ing galley plugs go now....don't see why that lazy a$$ machinest couldn't have put them in the block in the first place...hell, he took em out!oh, we're only going to have the crank looked at, cam bearings installed, hot tank, and NO HONE at the machine shop. we're gonna do that ourselves, which i'll tell him AGAIN... we're usin the same rings (save money and time). then we'll put new bearings in. hopefully, this next overhaul won't take as freakin long...i don't have to wait for backordered rings... usually P.A.W is good at having bearings in stock... well, gotta head off to skool... appreciate it guys 
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#7
02-17-2003, 10:03 AM
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I would suggest quarter turn Dzuz fasteners on your oil pan. Sounds like it's off every week. Seriously man, I think you are learning the hard way to pay close attention to detail and not accept the work of others as perfect until you inspect it yourself. Good luck on rebuild #?
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#8
02-17-2003, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
and add plasigauge is cheaper then bearg:s |
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#9
02-17-2003, 10:42 AM
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Hey RR72 (Rebuild and Rebuild 72)
Your signature line needs updating..isn't this the 5th rebuild? Not that I'm insinuating that your insane because that would be wrong and against the policy's of this board, but in case you don't know the definition of insanity.... Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. "that lazy a$$ machinest"...you forgot to add "that lazy a$$ Chevy machinest". "NO HONE at the machine shop"....ya use one of those $10.00 ball hones from Walmart, they're real easy to get a 30 degree angle hone with 500 grit in your High Nickel Mopar block and get out all the scoring from the metal between the cylinder wall and the piston skirt. Oh ya....and don't worry about the scoring on the piston skirts. If you have to hone out .005 or so to remove the gauling in the bore don't worry about it ...the piston's scored anyhow so the extra room will help it not gaul the block again as it rattles around in there....oh, and rings...what hell, a few thousands here and there ....close enough, and besides the block seats to rings and previous seat pattern on rings will self adjust. "3 1/2 hours of running while that damned plug was out. ".....sounds like a warrantee deal to me. At least at my shop it would be...wait a mimute what am I saying...we'd never do anything like that...jeeeze I'm going crazy thinking like that... Oh ya...that oil pump will be fine...Mopar pumps can digest ball bearings there so tough and that gear tolerance in the pump gears is only a rumour. You might want to try a Ford machine shop this time or I hear that some farm implement dealers have machine shops. Or load that SOB up and take to Roadway, have it shipped here and get the f**king thing done right. Jeeezzzzus Keyrighst man you've got the Mopar now Get the Real part right.. |
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#10
02-17-2003, 12:06 PM
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Hey cuda66273, being a little harsh on the boy, hope you are not serious. Live and learn and learn from your's and other peoples mistakes, pay extra close attention to detail, double check other peoples work and consult with the many smart people on this board for info and proper techniques on doing the job correctly.
We all have had something stupid go wrong one time or another. Just dont do it twice or else cuda66273 may be right. 
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#11
02-17-2003, 01:23 PM
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Your handle...hit me with one...I wasn't trying to be mean to the lad....just trying to get a point across to him.....see the first sentence...at least 5 times...I hate seeing him pour his hard earned money into a project that others seem to be screwing up for him.
I feel sorry for him....I'd do his engine at raw cost just to get him going and so he would know what a real 340 should run like. Poor Kid
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#12
02-17-2003, 01:48 PM
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Look at things
1972roadrunner - you must be frustrated by now, but the game is not over. Don't just take it apart and put it back together without determining what is wrong. If the sludge is metal, where did it come from? Is it steel, iron, or aluminum? While the oilpan is off, use a flash light and look up at the cam. Compare the lobes to each other for visual differences. You may have simply wiped a lobe or lobes. You may not need to hot tank and re-hone the block.
Good luck. Billy |
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#13
02-17-2003, 01:53 PM
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[[ conceals his face and voice to look/sound like 72roadrunner ]]
"Well Don, at raw cost, I may even step it up to a 408 stroker. Can I still get raw cost on that?" Just playing. That sucks ALOT about the engine. Unfortunately though I haven't been following your buildup and would love to know what caused the previous 4/5 rebuilds just so I can be certain to watch out for these things. Thus far, from what I hear, some of your problems are probably the results of the machine shop. While at the same time, how far can these people be blamed? I mean, I understand that you send the thing to a machine shop BECUASE you don't have the machines to do it yourself and therefor probably do not have the proper equipment to check and see if it was done right in the first place. But 5 times? I live in NJ and am currently checking prices on getting my block sent out to Oregon. (wink wink Don). If you are going to send it out, get it done right. I'm really starting to feel bad bashing on you but I don't mean this in a mean way at all. I know how it feels, trust me, to hear the whole "I told you so..." thing. If I were you, to take my mind off the current problem, jack up your road runner high enough to fit a sleeping bag under. Take a nap down there just so you don't feel like giving up. Also, do some quick math. If the cost of the most recent 4/5 rebuilds is still cheaper than it would have been to have it shipped to Don in the first place, you still have a reason to keep living. When the first part is greater than the second part, start thinking about a way to wrap that 340 block around your skull. Just playing, brother. Keep up the good work and everything will turn out alright. If you eliminate all negative possibilities, positives are the only things that can survive. -Fox Deacon |
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#14
02-17-2003, 02:00 PM
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Hey Fox
Building a 408 right now..email me at the new address and I'll give you the Dollar deal on it and what were using. bigdaddy@4secondsflat.com |
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#15
02-17-2003, 02:32 PM
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Do not re-use your old rings or you will be pulling it apart again. There is no possible way that you can get them put back in exactly the way they came out. They did wear themselves a pattern already. Just my .25.
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#16
02-17-2003, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
 Quote:
and for your information, my Dad and my Uncle were VERY successful in building race engines on a dirt track (yes, it was a chevy, but motors ARE motors...regardless...they all have cranks, cams, pistons etc! Dad DOES have a hone for a block to put a light cross hatch on it to reset the rings. i don't want the machine shop to do it because it costs about $65!! i'm TRYING to save money with this next rebuild! who are you to criticize me anyway? you don't know me....so what if your very successful with your 318, i'm happy for you, it doesn't mean you can treat me, or anyone, like that regardless of 4 rebuilds on an engine for the same problems everytime... Quote:
we had NO idea where that plug went, and thought it might have been mixed from another engine. we finally figured out where it went after we built a priming shaft, and watched a shitload of oil being pumped into the area where the cam gear goes. that was about 2 minutes after i got on the board and asked... thanks to all that answered and informed me. Quote:
[/B][/QUOTE] for those of you that havent followed my rebuild, heres what happened... 1: rebuilt the engine because it was tired and wore out, and there was a loud clacking noise which turned out to be the flex plate bolts hitting the block (it vibrated so bad there was only 1 bellhousing bolt to be found) in the process, we got a new torque converter (weighted correctly), bored it, new pistons, rings, had the heads looked at etc... the timing chain cover gasket didn't seal by one of the water jackets on the block (between cover and block). because of that, antifreeze got into the oil, mixed, and voila, nasty rotten cottage cheese type stuffs appeard where the oil was supposed to be. this clumpy stuff clogged a lifter real bad while driving, and i ended up wiping out my cam. put a new cam and lifters in it. the engine later locked up after an oil pump change. (antifreeze + bearings = oops!) 2: rebuilt the motor a second time, then again swapped from hyd to solid cam + lifters. the lifters were MP Race solid lifters, which were .005" undersized, and the contact point (where the lifter touches pushrod) was about 1/4" deeper into the lifter than a normal lifter. this caused my pushrods to hit the heads. dad decided to drill on the heads, and we thought we could catch all the metal so we left them on the engine. we didn't catch it all... bearings were shot... 3: rebuilt it, put total seal piston rings in it, bearings, and went back to hyd cam. (.509"/292*). this time we had all the oil galley plugs taken out for hot tank, and they came home in a plastic baggy... 4: current.... |
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#17
02-17-2003, 03:56 PM
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Sounds like a stream of bad luck, 72roadrunner, I too have had to re-do a few things on my 340. I call it "live and learn". Hell, I'm still learnin' and don't think I will ever stop. So you take things apart a few times and shit happens, if you haven't learned anything from the experience, then its a mistake. I'll bet you know that 340 block inside and out and soon you will be giving answers to questions on them from guys like me! Rock on buddy, why does anyone else care how much time and money you spend on your own stuff, it isn't costing them a dime. Don't be afraid to keep askin' the questions, I do all the time. Still waiting for an answer to my "master brake cylinder swap". No one seems to know the answer to that one.....mmmmmm finally got em stumped!
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#18
02-17-2003, 04:37 PM
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I don't want to sound like a smart ass... oh what the hell, sure I do. From the tone of many of the previous posts by roadrunner, I find one of his MAIN concerns is money. Mr. Mopar, you're right, Live and learn. But if hes dying on funds, there is really NO need to go pouring more money into it when someone can help him. Being educated by someone is another form of learning. Right now he is basically paying for an education that he isn't sure hes getting yet. I CARE about how much money he is putting into this because A) he is putting money into something that doesn't need to be payed for. That sounds confusing but here, he is paying for another rebuild. Whatever this cost is, he isn't going to be getting any more performance out of the engine than he would have gotten had he jsut took the money and spent it on something else. Example. He will need new rings. 65 bucks. But when its all bolted up. Hes still got rings, just like he did the first, second, and third time. Hes just 65 dollars por-er. Thats not learning. Paying for knowledge and paying to get kicked in the nuts are two different things.
-Deacon |
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#19
02-17-2003, 04:41 PM
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Whatever RR...you ask, dozens here respond and your do exactly want you were going to do anyhow so what does it matter.
ie: grinding on heads while on the car..go re-read that post... ..and your right what the f**k do I know? You just head off into the world knowing everything and I'll sit here building heads and engines, overhauling Race Carbs and rebuilding and dialing in ignition systems all day every day. Work stacked to the ceiling and a 0 return rate..see I've been there also....the rebuild, rebuild and rebuild again and again and again..... I've even been around that dirt in a circle thing once or twice and some of that black hard stuff, now if you want to talk historical events, in 1995 & 96, my personal cars won 5 track championships at 2 different tracks and in 1996 alone my cars took 55 checkered flags in 3 classes. In 95 and 96 we also won the Alaska Bearing $$$$ for the best 360 at the Gold Cup in Chico Ca. with the WoO's. So if you wanna talk what we USED TO DO don't try and impress me, I've crewed on NASCAR Cup Teams, Craftsman Truck, I was with Ray Alley when he tuned Shelly Anderson's car to set a new National Record. I've been around the block, the track and the circuit, built engines in the mud at midnight F**ked up more good machinery in one season than you could dream of paying for in a lifetime. You posted the problem and it's obvious that, as I stated it's NOT YOUR fault, your being talked into things that you know dam well won't work and dozens of us old geezers told you won't work. But hey, your on your 4th f**k up and still heading down the road to failure....go for it kid you show me how it's done. We can all use lot's of I's, Me, Used To and back when's, but your here now in real time and it ain't workin'. I'm out of here. Good luck |
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#20
02-17-2003, 04:47 PM
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I second and third.....
Off to go sit in the corner and think about what I've done... Oh wait, for ONCE I'm not the one being yelled at... w00t... -Deacon |
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#21
02-17-2003, 05:32 PM
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92whitedak, you're too funny......ha ha ha ha, I laughed for quite a while. That was good, paying to get kicked in the nuts! Very,very good!
Cuda, let him go, he's got to learn. ( I'm still laughing!! ). |
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#22
02-17-2003, 05:36 PM
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Cut him loose?
I did ...but they were more like little strings attached to some sort of parachute...cut 'em just before I pushed him outta the plane...... Deac's got me belly rolling too....I gotta get out to the shop....see ya'll later |
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#24
02-17-2003, 07:28 PM
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RR
I did the same thing on my first SB mopar. I left out the oil galley plug that sits under the rear main cap. I had all the books and everything looking for where they all went and searched the block to find every whole that could possibly need a core plug. Well I missed one. I had a simular ticking. So we checked the oil pressure and had plenty of it. So besides the ticking it ran great. Well bout 3,000 miles on it and my friend was seeing how fast he could go down the on ramp to the interstate, and left 2 rods in the pavement. Everything was junk besides the cam and intake. I definately learned from it so it was a good thing. I'll post some pics of the rod and piston. |
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#26
02-17-2003, 08:08 PM
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3,000 miles without that plug? dang! my pressure was low just from breakin it in inside the garage! kept it under 3,000 RPM the whole time i had it out too. everything was very clean when it went back together. well, i suppose i'll get another chance at it. i COULD still drive it, but it would just cause more damage... that musta sucked, that rod and piston is gone...
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#27
02-17-2003, 08:12 PM
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That rod and piston aren't shot. Walk down your main drag at 12 PM and step into the loud obnoxious croud of asians. Within five minutes, I'm sure you can convince them that it is a high performance part. Hell, tell them the piston is a rear wing mounting bracket. Atleast get 49.95 out of the deal...
-Deacon |
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#29
02-17-2003, 09:00 PM
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Let me ask you a few things before you burn that car!
I have read your articals as always, when the first startup of the engine what oil pressure did it have? At Idle? Judging from what you said it had good oil pressure and began to drop off correct? In my experiance this is usally due to excess bearing clearances. Now if you had some water seepage from many place namely the intake or whatever, and you did not catch it that was what wiped your bearings out. It should have read more than over full on the dipstick, just wondering if you noticed how much water entered? How many miles did you run between the time you checked the oil and the time your oil prssure drop/milky oil? I would not.........NOT pull and rebuild the engine. At this point you have nothing to loose and everythinh to gain!!!! I dont care who rebuilds the engine........IF Tom Hoover comes over and rebuild the engine using all new parts........there will be substantial metal in the pan....... THATS FACT. With all the metal to metal contact there will be tiny bits of metal floating around in your engine all its life....If that were not true engine would run forever. They would not were out. Of coarse this is a matter of size and quanity also. I bet anything that when you pull the pan and inspect the bearings, not just the cap bearings (The may look fine while the top halves look like crap) There will be shinny copper. All the babbit has been worn off. If the crank looks OK, no grooves scoaring etc. Replace the bearings and let it rip! If the crank does look bad.........well time for the $$$$$$$$$ and skinned knuckles. A over haul will be needed. If you gone this route run the engine only a few minutes untill warm and change the oil and filter, then do it again, Then put some miles on it I Mean maybe a few hundred and change it agian. If it holds good oil pressure at this point hot and idleing. If this fails what have you lost? Nothing but a 1 C-note (bearings gaskets and oil) and 1 days work.
__________________
68 Coronet 69 Super Bee......new 500 cid comin soon! 73 Duster witha missing 440/727 |
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#30
02-17-2003, 09:05 PM
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Now RR dont get your panties in a wad I'm just going to put in my $0.02 worth. You ask questions and the people responed with their knowledge and experience to your ? and you went off an "Did It Your Way", came back with ? and again " Your Way", etc etc. Everyone here is glad to help and no one wants to see anyone spend more than necessary, but when someone has their had in a fire and all they do is holler "damn that's hot" it gets a little bit old.
Example: Back in my sprint car days I thought I knew it all in the second season and I told the "old timers" I had a new set-up and would lap them, one of the old timer's said "it wont work be there tried that" I did it any way. I showed them though turned a $25,000 sprint car into a $200.00 heap of scrap metal. After the dust settled the old timer ask one question and made one statement, Are you all right, Told you in wouldnt work Lookink back I can LOL now |
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