Nitrous

[narfmasta]

Is nitrous pretty good? I don't know too much about it but would it be worth doing instead of a supercharger? What all would I have to change out to run nitrous without blowing up my engine? Would it be cheaper and would it make my car a whole lot faster? Thanks

[Flashpoint]

Nitrous is for sissy little girs that don't know how to make horespower! A real Mopar doen't need to cheat. Leave spraying to the jap crap.

[al_jam]

actually, nitrous is a great way to create power. if it weren't why would so many racers use it. Ill be getting a fogger plate system for free from a friend next week. Bang for the buck nitrous is great. As far as nitrous being for "sissy girl ricers", buying a nitrous, or blower kit for a mitsubishi eclipse would be the exact same kit for an "all american" dodge avenger. (not that i like either one of them.)

[cuda66273]

Yup it makes power all right...
Cheap....no way!
My buddy runs a 150 shot on his slug Firechicken to get it into the 12's....about $5.00 per pass plus race gas at $2.50 a pass.

On a good day he'll add $50.00 to his cost of racing..over 20 races...that's a grand and when the bottles empty and his wallet's empty, he still has a 14 second slug.

He spent $1400.00 on the equipment and installation..so far in 2 years he's eaten up a total of $3400.00...would that buy some nice head work and a cam? you bet, and he'd still have a 12 second car.

Not to mention the set of pistons it puked...second set starting to migrate to the plugs already.....he can't wait to get rid of it, hates it, inconsistant, unreliable and a motor eatin' monster.

This is your car $$$$$,
This is your car on drugs -$$$$$$
Got it?

But you go ahead...get on the drugs....you'll have fun watching us from the grandstand.

(of course the exception is building a motor and chassis designed to run the gas)

[MoparBilly G]

Cuda66273,
Your perspective is a little twisted...Nitrous is definitely cheap, when used properly. It can achieve a performance level far exceeding what can be reached for twice the money without it.

My car could run 10.80s without it...and ran 9.60's with it...a best of 9.23 @ 142 with a second stage added. This was a Hydraulic cammed 440 with 915 heads, TRW pistons and Stock rods.
And yes, after I blew it up in two years, I was upset that I lost a 1000$ dollar shortblock...But if you know how much motor it takes to reach that performance level WITHOUT the bottle, you know they spend that much on a roller cam and valvetrain!!

I see these guys constantly upgrading from Indy heads, to B-1's...constantly spending mega-bucks on stuff to gain a few more tenths...I just change a few jets. My valve train parts last 5 times as long since I don't have to have an aggressive pro-file to run fast.

[66Dart_GT]

Hay Flashpoint you the man!!

AL_jam you get nothing for nothing santa claus is dead!!! 2.50 a shot my ass!! BTW a Dodge avenger , well lets say it will fit in at the import races>

[cuda66273]

"Unless the car is built for it"

I believe Narfmasta was really talking about a basic street car... at least thats the impression I got.

Either it's a race car or a street car, 150 shot on a stock motor with no upgrades to rear end, tranny, distributor...etc. is a grenade.

This guy i'm talking about is using this on a bone stock 350/335HP crate motor with a 6 speed top loader, stock clutch, 10 bolt rear end and 3800 pounds of sled...and it's Chebby so need I say anymore.

Your 10.80 car was a REAL race car before you added the gas...and most important a Mopar. Don't try and impress me with that stock rod stuff ..... LOL...we all know how good that old Mopar stuff is.
If the bowtie boys only knew....hahahahhaha

Shhhh don't tell 'em they be buying up all the stock Mopar rods putting washers between them and trying to make they work in there 350's..LOL

I still gotta stick to my previous statement, it's gotta run hard and be tough before you add the spray....it's just a bonus if you want to go just a little faster.

And hey...twisted opinion??? ..maybe twist and shout, twisted up, wheat twisp or untwisted with a few frayed ends, a twist of lemon, but never a twisted opinion even on pinions, which are twisted by nature

[narfmasta]

Thanks for all of the advice. I guess I'll just stick to my blower idea. And Cuda, I was talking about a basic street car so you were right.

[cuda66273]

Thank you Your Honor...I pass the witness to the defense....

Blower hummm..now that sounds like fun...be sure and do your homework. I had a Fird Super Coupe with that little blower on it...it was bad a$$ for a Fird. I would still have except the electrical system was a wreck....too many problems to list here..and besides who here cares..it's a Fird...LOL

[66Dart_GT]

whatsa fird? real superchargera don't need electronics! Besides Who cares (FF).

[Fast One]

Stroke it........the engine that is !!

[John Tozer]

One thing that has'nt been mentioned is the cooling benefits nitrous can bring. My cousin was having problems with his Bitsashiti Starion turbo running heaps of boost, adding a shot of laughing gas to the equation helped cooling on intake temperature and improved combustion efficiency. I have also seen a twin turbo 265 Hemi six in a VH Valiant sedan in which nitrous was added for the same reason, not to mention the insane times you can pull on the strip.

[Mr.Mopar]

I don't know why I put the NOS on my Dart, maybe because it turned a 14.5 car into a 13.2 car for about $500.00 CDN. No other mods..mmmmmmmm I"d say its a very good bang for the buck. Hasn't hurt me with a 125 H.P. shot either. Runs all day at the track and then I drive it 100 miles back home. The NOS isn't always cheap to buy but the G force it creates is well worth the money. What the heck, if you don't like it you can always re-sell it whereas the blower might be harder to get rid of.

[Fast One]

Nitrous is injected into the intake at 127 degrees F. , which cools the overall intake charge by as much as 75 degrees, this lets a Nitrous engine create a lot higher combustion temperatures, exhaust temperatures can drop 40 - 60 degrees cooler.

[FuryusVIP]

The 'buy in' for nitrous is as cheap as 400 dollars for a kit. BUT if you add up the bottle fills during a year, plus plugs and the extra fuel kit, purge valve and other saftey stuff, it might be cheaper to get BLOWN instead of sprayed...IN THE LONG RUN... I guess it depends. Sometimes spending 50$ at a time is easier than 3,500 in one crack. My vote is for big cubic inches, low rpms and blown and injected.

But that is me.


Anthony

Big Chicago

"Fight the good fight, just make sure you're bottle is full".

[451Mopar]

Nitrous Oxide is just another way of getting more air into the engine. The oxygen in the N20 releases in the combustion chamber and allows you to, actually requires you to, burn more fuel which makes more power. Without the extra fuel the engine will go lean and try to burn the aluminum pistons. The nitrogen in the N20 helps buffer the combustion event, so the fuel burns rather than explodes, as if pure oxygen was sprayed in. The N20 does make the combustion process burn faster, so you need to reduce the ignition timming. The N20 also will cool the intake charge making it more dense and will help power also.

The Pro's are Nitrous kits are fairly inexpensive, easy to install, and add alot of power.
The Con's are that you have to continually re-fill the bottles at additional cost. The bottle can run out during that semi-final run loosing the race (you did bring extra bottles for when the first one gets low?) There are some saftey concerns when using compressed gassed too, which may add the the installation bill?
If you bracket race, the Nitrous may make the car less consistent unless you keep tabs on cylinder pressures, tank tempature, etc.

The biggest mistake is "T" ing into the stock fuel line. Unless you are sure the fuel pump has excess capacity, special attention to getting the proper fuel volume and pressure to the Nitrous plate is imortant to prevent the engine from going lean and frying the engine. Nitrous also "loads" the engine differently that Normally asperated, which can cause problems if the nitrous is used at low engine RPMs. For example, if you install a 150 HP kit, the nitrous will try to add 150 HP at all engine RPMs, not just peak power RPM, so low speed cylinder presures get extreamely high. It would be a good idea to use a high stall converter with the nitrous kit. Speaking of converters, because of the drastic increase in torque with nitrous, you should beef up the drivetrain and use a converter with an anti-balooning plate.

It has probbably been mentioned before, but the engines internals need to built for the HP level the engine will see with the Nitrous on. Unless the kit is small HP level, forged pistons should be used. If you are going with a killer Nitrous kit, you may need special nitrous pistons with repositioned ring lands.

[cuda66273]

From 451Mopar

"continually re-fill
additional cost
bottle can run out
extra bottles
Nitrous may make the car less consistent
tabs on cylinder pressure
tank tempature
"T" ing into the stock fuel line
fuel pump has excess capacity
going lean and frying the engine
problems if the nitrous is used at low engine RPMs
low speed cylinder presures get extreamely high
converter with an anti-balooning plate.
the engines internals need to built for the HP
forged pistons should be used
pistons with repositioned ring lands."

And then there was this...

"I lost a 1000$ dollar shortblock"

....I run a 67 318 block with about $2000 worth of machining and oil control, I sure wouldn't want to lose mine every 2 years.

This comment got me thinking...

"why would so many racers use it".....

I can only think of 1 car in the 3 sportsman classes at out track that runs nitrous, and he runs consistanly between 12.6 and 13.2

If I was going to run Nitrous I would approach it a little differant.....I would buy some time on a chassis dyno and set the car up with about a 50HP shot that comes in at 4500 (Min RPM on shift) and in 2nd and 3rd only. My motor and driveline are already plenty stout to handle the HP so my foundation is already built.

On the dyno I would want to know the exhaust temps to balance the jetting to the N02. This should knock off enough to get the car securely into the 11.90's and allow me to run SuperPro at the Division races and it is a strong consideration at this point as part of the upgrades for next year.

We would still run with no drugs at regular points races in the Pro class.

Nitrous can be a good thing but, sometimes too much of a good thing can be painful to your wallet.

Treat it like Miller Lite "Know when to say when"

[451Mopar]

I don't dislike Nitrous, it just seems that it is used more in heads-up racing and street racing, than in sportsman racing.

[al_jam]

I did not realize that he was talking about a stock engine. I would not run the gas on a stock engine unless it was just an engine i wasnt woried about, such as the one in my belvedere. Also, sportsman racing is very interesting to watch and would be fun to be a part of, but with my budget it aint going to happen. when saying it would be cheaper i meant for the poorboy heads up racing that building a blown motor would be alot less economical for. I even will not be doing either the n2o or the blower on the engine i will be building after this one, partialy due that all the local tracks are 1/8s.

[turbotim23]

451 You mentioned needing a piston with relocated ring lands. Could you tell me how well nos will work with the Forged Trw flattops? You know They are almost the same as stock but forged material.They have slot cut around piston to keep heat from going down into skirt.I would like to use nitrous but I want motor to last too. Thanks

[451Mopar]

I don't know anything about the TRW pistons, sorry.

From the Ross Piston web page, these pistons are OK with about 250HP shot, and I think the Keith Black cast pistons may be OK with 150 HP shot (with increased piston ring end gap.)

From my reading (not experiance) a Nitrous piston would have the top ring further down on the piston so the rings do not get as hot, and the ring lands may be thicker? so the additional cylinder pressure does not bend (or colapse) the piston lands which would pinch the rings.

[phoenix]

If you don't have forged pistons, don't do it! It's not an "if", but rather a "when" it will grenade! Even when forged pistons are used, a guy's 'gotta dot the "I's" and cross his "T's". No, hypereutectics are NOT forged pistons!, they are high silicon alloy "CAST" pistons that are HARD and STABLE thermally because of the alloy, but hence also brittle. Detonation is a high frequency vibration, something BB mopars are prone to with iron heads due to plug placement in the intake wash, compounded when using steroids by the added fuel intake with the NOS. Remember the opera singer who "shatters" the wine glass??
If you do use the juice, always 'err on the rich side with the fuel!!

[Mr.Mopar]

I used a 125 HP shot of nitrous on my 340 all last summer and it had factory cast pistons and I had no problems. I had no detonation either, but I agree with phoenix, don't ever use a hyperutectic piston with nitrous, it will shatter at the first sign of detonation. The guys at NOS say 125 shot is totally safe on cast pistons. Just don't get greedy and go any higher.

[Dart_440]

Nitrous is a very good thing! even if you lean it out.. just remember too lean is better then a little lean!!
Hyperutectics love nitrous I ran over 7 bottles through my hyperu piston'd 440 and it still runs strong to this day!
The bottle fills kill ya but its all in fun!

[FuryusVIP]

Nitrous is a very good thing! even if you lean it out.. just remember too lean is better then a little lean!!
Hyperutectics love nitrous I ran over 7 bottles through my hyperu piston'd 440 and it still runs strong to this day!


Thats a joke right? next you will be telling us that the lobe centers are tight 104cl and the exhaust duration is lower than the intake.

Like most engines, NOS engines can be plenty strong. IF built as a NOS engine. Yes, it can and will improve the performance of a stock engine, but the engines that are PLANNED to be sprayed are awesome, just look to Pro Mod cars for this. NOS USE TO rule the Street Racing classes, but the Turbo cars are kicking butt now, somerthing about weight breaks.

Like an earlier post said...Just know when to say when. Cast Pistons, mostly stock motor keep it around 100 hp hit or less. Build for the spray, or just go big cubes...

[Dart_440]

Hey MR. NOS! I bet you dont even know what NOS stands for and you drive a 1996 civic??
And your car wont run if it isnt factory correct timing right??
running a .509 cammed 440 with a 225 shot of nitrous and hyperutectic pistons it would for sure blow up?
I gave the pistons a little extra clearance on the skirt. I guess 440's are weak engines and would never stand up to spray?
But then again you've probly never ran nitrous so whats it matter that your full of it?

[Mr.Mopar]

Dart_440, what...leaner is better? Whatever you think, I guess its your motor and your wallet. Let us know how it turns out. You always go richer if in doubt, too much nitrous and kaboom!

[6pakman]

nitrous sucks! i dont belive in steriods for a engine. build it right from trial and error.

[Rob Voyles CA]

Whooa...you guys think about this.
Look at Moparbillys motor on the first page, thats a STREETABLE motor that ran 9.20's! Build an all motor car that is streetable that runs that number for less than big $$$$....it won't happen.
I agree...If you have a stock motor stay under a 150 shot. The bottom end (and the rest of the drivetrain) has to be built to handle the ultimate horsepower (with nitrous) to be reliable. But that would have to be done even if you did it with a blower or even all motor. The motor needs to be designed around the NOS if you plan to use large quantities of it.

If you have a stock 440 then spray a 150 shot max and just make sure your fuel system is up to the job...It will be fine if your motor is in good shape.

I have a friend with an almost stock 5.0 mustang that ran high 13's on motor....he sprayed at least 250 passes with a 2 stage 300 shot that he pieced together out of 2 seperate NOS setups and even used the stock fuel pump. He ran 11.0's all the time.

Would I do that? NO! But I'm just trying to show that it isn't instant death to a stock motor. My brother has a vette with a 383 chevy (carburated) that runs 10's at 130 mph (200 shot) with KB pistons....again, would I do that....NO! But Mopars have good bottom ends......and as long as you have a good fuel system you could run a lot more NOS than people think.

Now....if I had all the cash on hand I'd just build blower motor and have the power all the time.....but that really isn't a "regular street motor" either. My new 440 in my challenger should hopefully run mid-high 10's on the motor eventually.....and 9's on the spray. Thats with Damn good heads and bottom end and only a 10.3:1 compression pump gas motor. I couldn't do that with an all motor car and pump gas very easily.
Oh...one more thing about blowers...they are cool as heck...but they have to be rebuilt sometimes too and that adds to the cost of a blower motor as well. And nitrous "purge" setups are not safety items....they help with consistancy and help fill up the lines before a pass. And nitrous is NOT really meant for Sportsman type racing....heads up or for fun (maybe save you on a bad launch...but thats it).
I hope I didn't piss nobody off.....I didn't mean too. I just wanted to show that there's nothing wrong with it in the right applications.

[71383bee]

Ahhh music to my ears...Leave to the Brand X knuckleheads to have to use 200 and 300 hp shots of nitrous to do what a well built street MoPar can do with out the steroids!!!