Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide!



Go Back   Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide! > Technical Forums > Power Adders

Click here to search for Mopar cars and parts for sale.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-07-2006, 08:39 PM
michaelmopar michaelmopar is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: tyler,tx
Posts: 262
Default Twin Turbo changing the performance world!!!!

Anyone have any info on the twin turbo 5.2L magnum? I will post as i have it.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-16-2006, 11:19 AM
BRDMOPARMAN BRDMOPARMAN is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: clearfield/utah
Posts: 6
Default twin turbo

im building a 495 c.i.d. mopar with 9.5:1 compression. I was wondering what size twin turbos I should put on, I would like the turbos to start to spool around 2500 rpm and run anywhere between 8 to 12 psi boos?. Any help would be great. thx
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-20-2006, 02:58 PM
michaelmopar michaelmopar is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: tyler,tx
Posts: 262
Default

Your compression needs to be optimum at around 8:1
you can get a t-3/t-4 hybrid turbo new for around 250 from ebay
specs you will need are as follows you need a stage three fast spool
.63 a/r cold
.60 a/r compressor
.63 a/r turbine
3" inlet
2" outlet
25-35 max psi
JDM NEW TURBO
t3/t4 to4e
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-27-2006, 03:41 PM
'69SudoR/T'Net's Avatar
'69SudoR/T'Net '69SudoR/T'Net is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Albuquerquqe/NM
Age: 44
Posts: 4
Default

I am looking at doing about the same thing with a 440 stroked to 540 but I am toying with the idea of remote mounting the turbos at the back of the car like the Squires Turbo Systems...just can't figure out what kind of turbos I'm going to need so they spool fast enough ~3000rpm.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-07-2006, 11:38 AM
whirlyone whirlyone is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mendota, IL
Age: 42
Posts: 35
Default

I agree with michaelmopar. Look into the t3/t4 hybrid turbos. They spool quick and can make good boost levels.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-10-2006, 05:42 PM
Robertson_Tech's Avatar
Robertson_Tech Robertson_Tech is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Denver Co
Age: 68
Posts: 270
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by '69SudoR/T'Net
I am looking at doing about the same thing with a 440 stroked to 540 but I am toying with the idea of remote mounting the turbos at the back of the car like the Squires Turbo Systems...just can't figure out what kind of turbos I'm going to need so they spool fast enough ~3000rpm.
I have not seen this but turbo lag would have to be very high with a rear mounted system, if you have more info share it.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-20-2006, 06:53 AM
yokeracer yokeracer is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 1
Idea

there shouldn't be any lag at all, because the exhaust is always flowing, so turbo is constantly spooling. I saw a video clip of a new GTO with that type of system, Man was it impressive. No intercooler needed as well.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-09-2006, 08:42 PM
73scamp318 73scamp318 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: deltona, FL
Posts: 214
Default

Alot of people dis the rear mount..but it does work if the rest is setup for it, i saw a new transam with one, it deff didn't have any lag.

Theres a guy who has a fwd 89 cavy z24 and is running 12's!!

You just have to down size a tad.

Steve
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-09-2006, 10:31 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Minnesota,USA
Posts: 1,198
Default

Guys, you can't make changes to the rest of the system that can counteract the laws of physics.

If exhaust is always flowing so the turbo is spooled up were true, you would have boost all the time. What does happen is that the turbo is spinning at a reduced speed (that can be helped by using a blowoff valve) that is determined by the size of the unit. It is not spinning at a speed that will give you boost quickly without the help of increased exhaust flow. If it were, it would be so severely undersized you wouldn't want to use it. To get the turbo to spool enough to make boost, you need the exhaust flow and pressure AT THE TURBO. In a rear mount, you have to compress the exhaust gas in the pipe already (to about 2+ times boost pressure) and the more gas in the pipe you have, the longer it takes. You also have to accelerate the gas in the pipe to a higher velocity, which takes energy (heat) Add to this that you are losing heat in the long pipe (it is the heat that gives you pressure) and you delay getting the boost even further.

On the intake side, you have a similar issue, lots of air to compress and accellerate. The cooling you get in the pipe is not going to be as good as an intercooler and is a much larger volume than an intercooler.

Sure, you will see setups that run pretty well, definitely faster than stock. But, what you need to do is compare them to a well done short manifold, system. Side by side, you would see a huge difference in performance, especially in response.

I think these setup have a place, and am not dissing them and saying they shouldn't be used, but to put them on the same level as an engine mount setup is just not correct IMHO. On a low/moderate performance setup that runs at low rpm, it will be better than NA, especially at the track where spooling is not really much of an issue. Delay will be more of an issue on the street, especially with a manual transmission.

I think the best application for the rear mount is on a heavy or tow vehicle that needs improved power for long periods of time like going up hills. You aren't going to notice a little lag with tons of vehicle to move, and the packaging is much easier.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-08-2006, 12:50 AM
youstacood's Avatar
youstacood youstacood is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: honolulu, hi
Age: 41
Posts: 38
Default

hey guy, laws of physics WITH chemistry, is there not already an amount of space FILLED with air/exhaust? if so, when one part moves, wont the rest move in that direction? yes it would. also, the rear mount setup adds NO LAG at all, none...stop dissing it, you are just jealous cuz you spent extra money on that intercooler...with it out back, the long charge pipe acts as a 50% efficient cooler as is.about as good a cooler as that 550-650 dollar spearco you wasted your money on. plus, you dont need a muffler!!!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-08-2006, 03:14 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Minnesota,USA
Posts: 1,198
Default

Yes the pipe is full of exhaust, and gas in, gas out happens at the same rate WHEN IT IS STEADY STATE, as soon as you increase the load, the exhaust pressure goes up as it generates energy to spin the turbo. If you have a big long tube full of low pressure exhaust, you have to add a bunch of extra exhaust to it to allow for the compression of gas in the big tube. It takes a lot more to fill that void in a long tube (big volume) than in a short tube (low volume). Another part of it is that all that exhaust in the tube has mass, so that when you increase the flow as you increase load, you need to accellerate that mass. More mass takes more energy and more time to accellerate, and thus slower spooling.

If you read what I said the first time, I agree that the turbo output to the engine tube in rear mount does work like an intercooler. What I also said was that the turbo inlet (exhaust) tube also gets cooled the same way, and any heat you lose from the exhaust is heat you don't have to build pressure, and thus spool slower.

You can throw personal insults all you want, I built my system the way I wanted, based on sound physics and thermodynamics. But before you start trying to explain physics (chemistry??), to all of us, you better go back to school to learn how it really works.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-17-2006, 04:33 PM
sickhemi sickhemi is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: waltham mass
Posts: 12
Default twin turbo 340

hello i an building a twin turbo smallblock and i would like to know if i can use two 2.5 litre turbos from a dodge shadow? the motor will be 328 cid 8-1 compression r-block i,m looking for 10lbs to 14 lbs of boost. i want to run the chrysler turbo because they are water and oil cooled any help would be greatly appreciated
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-17-2006, 08:46 PM
Rockmonton Rockmonton is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada!
Posts: 91
Default

i'm planning on running some of the garret turbos from a 2.2/2.5 setup with the dual lines in them on a 318, they should work as they ran stock about 7 or 8 pounds IIRC, some upgraded parts and they could probably to 10-14
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-19-2006, 10:13 AM
flight704's Avatar
flight704 flight704 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: mansfield,oh
Age: 57
Posts: 392
Default

This is not meant to be disrespectful in any way but im sure before its over I will offend someone and it is not my intention. So i will apologize now.

HERE GOES

turbo dodge you are correct and i do not envy your situation trying to convince the others // I give you credit for trying. so i will attempt to help you.

If you read what turbo dodge is saying he is not dissing the rear mount sytem at all. they do work and give improvements over stock performance. this point has been conceded . how ever compared to an engine mount set up they are not as effective and depedning on what kind of performace you are looking for it could or could not suit your needs.

1)the exhaust gasses cool off as it goes through the pipe to get to the rear of the vehicle. this temp drop = a drop in pressure which = longer spool time.
2) im sure the charge air piping under the vehicle can act as in intercooler this point is also conceded!! but it will not be as effective as a front mount spearco getting fresh air shoved through it as you accelerate. these can reach 80 to 90 % efficiency. if you choose to argue with me that 50 % efficiency is as good as 90% efficiency then this arguement is over.
3) as stated earlier it depends on your individual performance goals. there is a place for them if you want moderate gains but if you are looking for maximum performance the engine mounted systems are lightyears ahead in efficiency which = more hp faster period

if the rear mount systems are equal to the engine systems // Why have I never seen them on any of the 7 second nopi cars?????????

the only sure proof is to take 2 of the same vehicle with identical internal engine modifications and mount both systems and do a same day dyno comparison under identical air conditions to prove this point. maybe we should ask hot rod or car craft to do an article on this since most uf us do not have the money too set out on an adventure like this just to prove a point.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-10-2006, 12:00 AM
MoPaul's Avatar
MoPaul MoPaul is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Appalachia, OH
Posts: 360
Default

if the constant flow theory were true, then you could ditch your headers, put on factory manifolds, and just split into eight exhaust pipes at the rear axle and see the same result.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-29-2006, 12:39 AM
Stevemc79 Stevemc79 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hemet, CA
Posts: 25
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRDMOPARMAN
im building a 495 c.i.d. mopar with 9.5:1 compression. I was wondering what size twin turbos I should put on, I would like the turbos to start to spool around 2500 rpm and run anywhere between 8 to 12 psi boos?. Any help would be great. thx
I would say something in the 72-80mm range would work very good for a motor that big. Take a look at www.nelsonracingengines.com. I know they are Chevy engine they build but they give you a basic rundown of what you will need. Also, you can see thier videos on either thier website or on streetfire.net. http://nelsonracingengines.com/press.html.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-03-2006, 12:57 PM
purpleplymouth's Avatar
purpleplymouth purpleplymouth is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: columbus, IN
Posts: 8
Default

hey guys why not go to any of the outlaw forums and ask the experts. don't bother with the ricer's sites. check out www.outlawracing.com or www.yellowbullet.com the lynch/petty team has run 6.90's at over 220mph on 10.5w tires with a twin turbo smallblock at 3000 pounds!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-08-2006, 01:29 PM
Dart 65 Dart 65 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Scenic Xanthe Terra, Mars
Age: 51
Posts: 1,864
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoPaul
if the constant flow theory were true, then you could ditch your headers, put on factory manifolds, and just split into eight exhaust pipes at the rear axle and see the same result.
My understanding on this point is that header(s) on a turbo engine give almost no benefit because the space between the engine and the turbo in the manifold is under pressure, so the airflow is almost inconsequential. This is oppostite of N/A engines, which need a smooth airflow to create (or rather keep from losing) power.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-08-2006, 05:12 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Minnesota,USA
Posts: 1,198
Default

Headers on a turbo car don't see the same exhaust pulses as an NA engine does. The whole idea of headers is to improve scavanging by tuning the length, diameter, collector to help fill the cylinder. On a turbo car the exhaust is running higher pressure than the intake by quite a bit, so you can't really do any scavanging. On high rpm engines that run high all the time, there probably are gains from the smoother flow paths, but on street engines, I don't think headers will do any good, and may cost power because of heat loss off of all the piping before the turbo.

The other thing to remember is that because of the pressures run in the exhaust, you will most likely have less exhaust volume, and thus velocity, in a turbo engine than an NA one, so you actually will need less flow capacity on the exhaust side.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-09-2006, 09:25 AM
Dr. Righteous Dr. Righteous is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: RURAL Tennesse
Age: 58
Posts: 1,839
Default

I will put it this way. Read any of the books written by turbo gurus and they will basically state that long exhaust piping and intake piping KILLS the efficiency of the system. When you turbocharge, you are actually bolting a gas turbine to your engine. You are recovering wasted heat energy. If you put together an inefficient system, you are recovering very little, thus your results will be POOR.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-09-2006, 09:39 AM
Dr. Righteous Dr. Righteous is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: RURAL Tennesse
Age: 58
Posts: 1,839
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbododge
Headers on a turbo car don't see the same exhaust pulses as an NA engine does. The whole idea of headers is to improve scavanging by tuning the length, diameter, collector to help fill the cylinder. On a turbo car the exhaust is running higher pressure than the intake by quite a bit, so you can't really do any scavanging. On high rpm engines that run high all the time, there probably are gains from the smoother flow paths, but on street engines, I don't think headers will do any good, and may cost power because of heat loss off of all the piping before the turbo.

The other thing to remember is that because of the pressures run in the exhaust, you will most likely have less exhaust volume, and thus velocity, in a turbo engine than an NA one, so you actually will need less flow capacity on the exhaust side.
You nailed it! I always saw headers in combo with turbos on Formula open wheel race cars. Otherwise it was a cast iron manifold with the turbo flange ON the manifold. Believe it or not that is the MOST efficient as far as heat transfer. And here is the real beauty to a turbo project with your 30 year old car as apposed to a newer vehicle. You have PLENTY of underhood room in old cars! Why are we seeing people tack turbo after 4 feet of exhaust pipe? Because it is difficult to find room under the hood if not impossible. Plus more people are apt to tackle a turbo project if it seems an easy one. Nobody wants a plumbing headache. But turbos are the BEST and most efficient when the systems is properly executed. They perform poorly when not.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-30-2006, 10:23 AM
Sigwelgub Sigwelgub is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1
Default

Great information
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-04-2006, 08:06 PM
BEEEEEP BEEEEEP is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sandusky, Ohio
Posts: 32
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelmopar
Your compression needs to be optimum at around 8:1
you can get a t-3/t-4 hybrid turbo new for around 250 from ebay
specs you will need are as follows you need a stage three fast spool
.63 a/r cold
.60 a/r compressor
.63 a/r turbine
3" inlet
2" outlet
25-35 max psi
JDM NEW TURBO
t3/t4 to4e
That is more of a small motor size turbo. For almost 500ci you need alot more turbo then that.

The best place to look would be turbonetics site. For the best results on the street I would use just 1 large turbo rather than 2 smaller ones. Less pluming and less exspense. I'm currently working pulling parts together for a stroker motor w/ aluminum heads. I also have alot of working know how when it comes to turbo set-ups and am really getting tempted to get a GT-40r turbo for that sucker and just go nuts.

Joe
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-14-2007, 04:48 PM
ShakerScoops ShakerScoops is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Tualatin, OR
Age: 60
Posts: 13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertson_Tech View Post
I have not seen this but turbo lag would have to be very high with a rear mounted system, if you have more info share it.
Actually the reviews on this system have been very good. Turbo lag is almost non-existent on this system. It does not need an intercooler as the air gets cooled in the tubes running back to the intake.
It's a pretty trick setup and it keeps your underhood temps down too!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-14-2007, 04:56 PM
ShakerScoops ShakerScoops is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Tualatin, OR
Age: 60
Posts: 13
Default

Here's the article:



Sorry, I can't post the link but here's the article. Chevyhiperformance is where it's located. Google rear mounted turbo systems and you'll find it.


Riders on the Storm
Rear Mounted Turbos from Squires Turbo Systems
all contributors: Bob Mehlhoff

When we first saw the STS turbocharger mounted near the rear axle of a fourth-gen F-body, we had some hesitation. After all, turbos have always been located in the engine compartment where they can build up enough heat to cook a pizza while consuming precious under-hood real estate. But then one of the freethinkers from the office said, "Why not mount it in the rear?" and we scrambled for answers.

Just about that time, Rick Squires of STS Turbo Systems threw us the keys to one of his pressurized Firebirds equipped with one of his new patented turbo kits and told us to take it for a rip. We couldn't find an open stretch of industrial L.A. road quick enough and we couldn't believe the rush. Nail the throttle of an LS1 that inhales through one of STS's turbos and you'll feel like you're traveling at fast-forward-video speed down the asphalt. After we got back to the building and pulled our faces back into place, we had to learn more about these butt-mounted hair driers.

Squires always loved the sensational power a turbo produced, but didn't like the high-underhood heat, packaging restraints, and additional front-end weight a traditional turbo location brings with it. He decided to mock up a system that mounted the turbo under the car away from the engine heat. The solution was to install the blower where the muffler once lived and from there, plumb the intake tubing up to the engine to provide the boost, while the 38mm wastegate bleeds unneeded exhaust to control the boost pressure. The turbo would serve double-duty to muffle the exhaust sound and to provide a deep and throaty note.

Since these systems are uniquely designed to function at the rear of the vehicle, it operates without any noticeable lag and will produce full boost below 3,000 rpm. This is because the intake-tubing volume is about the same size as most traditional turbos that are front-mounted with an intercooler. The system is a true bolt-on kit that can usually be installed in an afternoon.In an F-body, the intake tubing is routed under the car on the driver's side. The tubing's exposure to ambient air alongside the car also serves to cool the charge. Tests have shown that turbo outlet temps with 5-psi boost measured 175 degrees F (at the rear of the car) and dropped to 115 degrees F at the intake discharge up front. The pressure drop was 1/4 to 3/4 psi. The bottom line is that the intake tube acts as an intercooler, dropping the rear-mounted turbo temp (which is already lower than engine compartment installations) about 50 percent and with a very small drop in psi.



To lubricate the turbocharger, Squires designed a system that taps into the engine's pressurized oiling system (above the oil filter). The pressurized oil travels through 12 feet of tubing back to the turbocharger. From the turbocharger, an electric oil pump removes the oil and pushes the lube forward to the engine and into a fitting in the center of the oil cap, where it drops back into the crankcase. Each time the lube travels up and back through the tubing it is cooled by ambient air.

The result is that you can realize huge horsepower and torque gains after a single day's work. The STS Turbo kit keeps your car stock in appearance, while retaining its original drivability. And oh yes, in most cases your fuel economy will stay the same or improve (in most cases, fuel economy improves 2-3 mpg). That is, of course, if you can keep from mashing the fun pedal.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-14-2007, 05:52 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Minnesota,USA
Posts: 1,198
Default

Shaker, don't want to go over it all again, but please take a look at the comments made earlier in the thread. Take note that they only give any numbers on the temp drop of the output charge. The inlet charge is also going to drop, and it will drop a lot more because it is hotter to start with. This drop will cost you much more than the gain from the discharge cooling. As was said earlier, physics counts in this stuff, and if these guys want to say they are as good or better than a front mount system, they need to do some testing and show some real numbers.

Like I said earlier, there is a place for these systems, but I think it is a bit wrong for them to make a lot of the claims that they are making.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-14-2007, 06:02 PM
Dick's Avatar
Dick Dick is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Western NH
Age: 80
Posts: 8,880
Default

This thread started over a year ago. It died out on its own months ago.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-24-2007, 08:53 PM
Knight's Dart Knight's Dart is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 10
Default

it has a lot of good information though
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08-25-2007, 07:13 PM
Duster367 Duster367 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hollywood Fl.
Posts: 86
Default

That long oil line sounds like alot of coking to me. does that kit include a turbo timer?
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08-25-2007, 07:31 PM
Duster367 Duster367 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hollywood Fl.
Posts: 86
Default

O.k. I anwsered my own question looking at the website. I would never use that system it's not for the real world one deep puddle or heavy rain storm you are done. I'm sure it can work. But what if your project car is your daily driver and it's raining? For all you guys that want turbo go with engine mount.I have several turbo charged vehicles in my life and fully understand how they work. I don't care what squires website says how can there be no lag with 15 to 20 feet of pipe? Use the kiss method keep it simple stupid.Even with small diameter tubing to speed up exhaust velocity there stilll has to be lag. My turbo bike had a hedder with small tubing only 8 inches long before the turbo and about 12inches to the airbox and there was still some lag . I read it's without any noticeable lag, thats because it probably doesn't hit that hard with it's low boost levels.As for the intake side of the turbo there is two things I don't like. Two miles of ducting or a filter under the car. I know some one who tried this ducting and it did not last very long. It dry rotted or it go sucked in and flattend out.I sure it works good on an all out race car where it's in the throttle all the time but I don't see it being as good as a engine mounted turbo for a daily drvier.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Twin turbo 5.2L michaelmopar Performance Talk 25 03-10-2006 02:17 PM
Twin Screw Supercharger or Twin Turbo? GQMarinePilot Power Adders 3 09-07-2002 06:50 PM
Twin Turbo V-10 Dak DAKRACER Dakota Truck Forum 12 06-27-2002 10:50 AM
Twin Turbo a 440? TwiZtiD440 Performance Talk 9 01-30-2002 09:29 AM
Twin turbo 340/360 JoeD Performance Talk 9 04-25-2000 07:35 PM




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
. . . . .