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-   -   Torqueflight won't go into 3rd gear! (http://www.moparchat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24672)

goose 03-29-2001 02:01 PM

I just got a '74 Dart Swinger 318/auto yesterday and after putting in a new distributor the thing runs and drives great. The only problem I have is that it won't go into 3rd gear no matter what the speed. The transmission seems to work very smoothly otherwise although it was a little low on fluid when I got it, took care of that immediately of course. I thought that possibly the shifter linkage was misadjusted, so when driving I played with the shifter position but still it wouldn't shift. I even put it into neutral and then pulled the shifter down until it went into gear but still no 3rd. I took it out onto the highway at 60 mph then let completely off the gas, no 3rd. Has anybody out there had similar problems or have any advice? Other than this the car is great... 60K original miles and perfect except for sun damage to the front seat and paint, the paint is buffing out nicely. Green with black vinyl top in excellent condition. Oh yea, it was only $375!! I obviously want to keep this one.

Chargerdude 03-29-2001 04:27 PM

Been there, done that. I had the same problem awhile back in a 72 Charger 400 with a 727 Torqueflite and did exactly as suggested, drop the pan take the valve body out and checked the valves, put in a shiftkit and tried that but it still didn't work. Eventually a new valve body proved to be the remedy, it seems in the shift kit you don't totally disassemble the valvebody and that's where my problem was. New valve body from a local supplier - $24.99 getting rubber at gear changes - - - priceless!!

swinger340 03-29-2001 04:53 PM

I had/still have, the same problem with my 904, except it skips second all together. It goes straight from first to third. I bought a new 904, and after a month, it now does the same, except i get second, buts its sloppy? Whats going on?

Slant6Duster 03-29-2001 09:04 PM

I am very experienced in this situation, I will tell you what it is even though it might not be it still but this is what I did.. First off, you have a sloppy linkage between the shifter and the actually gear of the tranny, easy fix problem is a stock center console and shifter for it, direct linkage guarantees no missing gears or almost no slip. What I did is I mounted a whole crap load of washers to keep the linkage from wabbling on both ends of the shaft, I put in the cotter pin(or how ever you spell that) and adjusted the linkage with it in nuetral. If you dont fix this problem soon, your linkage will get sloppy, and then when you place it into park it will think its in nuetral, and it wont shift into park unless you pop opne the hood and adjust the linkage yourself... I had to do this for quite some time before i knew what was happening... I became an expert at it, now parking on hills was a pain, because I would have to hold my car in place while poping open the hood and hitting that linkage.... And I must say you need to run pretty fast to do this!

In the meantime, while you are driving and it still wont kick into third, get to the speed limit, pop it in nuetral, than slap it back into drive, slow down and then speed up and if you here it go into 3rd grats, if not you will have to try again until you do... But if you need a center console..... Reply back and i will hook ya up with a place where you can get the console with linkage and everything for like under 300, it comes with linkage, shifter, console, and hardware, might replace the hardware because its from a junkyard, but these are Arizona Rust free Parts. Any more questions on the car not going into third, just ask, I can come up with some more solutions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

74 Gold Duster 225(soon to be 318 magnum)
I would attach pictures, but it dont seem to work for me..

ben440brown 03-29-2001 09:20 PM

Well, goose -- the tv linkage could be your problem. The tower where the shift lever and Throttle lever are on the transmission is prone to sticking. The TV shaft passes through the shift tower, and has a seal, washer and E-clip on top. You can see these (maybe use a mirror) on top without removing any levers. Water seeps down inside and rust forms, causing the inner shaft to stick to the outer. You can tell by stroking the tv linkage -- if it is stiff and doesn't travel as far as it should, you have found the problem. Spray PB Blast on there and work it until it is freed up.
You see, the TV linkage sticks and the trans 'thinks' you have the throttle wide open, so you are in kickdown all the time.

Good luck

Ben

goose 03-29-2001 10:45 PM

reverse gives trouble too
 
I thought I had cured the problem with reverse which is why I didn't mention it in my earlier post. It still does the same thing; put it into reverse and it makes a small "bump" noise but doesn't actually go into gear. Rev it for a second and then it suddenly bangs into gear (no slipping), often chirping the tires because it's revved up. It seems to get better as the trans warms up; yesterday, after driving around the block a couple times and then putting it in and out of reverse a few times it started going directly into reverse. The book I have says that both problems could be due to a malfunctioning valve body but there is no other single problem which could cause both troubles. I really don't want to bother putting another valve body in! I had enough of that when I put in the shift kit for my RR last year, what a pain and takes hours to wash the tranny fluid off your hair and... :) so any thoughts? Maybe I should just try changing the filter/fluid first? And check the external linkages of course.

ben440brown 03-29-2001 11:13 PM

Actually, goose, the problem with reverse and high gear are directly related (pun intended). The front clutch (as the Mopar manuals call it), or direct clutch, does double duty in a Torqueflight (and other transmissions) -- It is the reverse input clutch and the high clutch. What you describe is a common condition -- the rubber clutch piston seals have hardened and shrunken. That explains the delayed engagement in reverse when cold that improves when the transmission warms up. But in reverse, line pressure is boosted to over 200 psi, which can overcome the leaky piston seals. However, in Drive, line pressure is only about 60 psi -- not enough to shift into high gear. Does the transmission neutral out (engine revs, but quits pulling) when it tries to shift to third, or does it stay in second? If it neutrals out, what I just said applies to your trans and it is overhaul time (sorry!).

Let me know here what you find.

Ben

goose 03-29-2001 11:49 PM

It just stays in second, no neutral out. I suppose part of the problem is that the thing only has 60K miles on it; it obviously had to have been unused for quite a while so the various rubber parts have probably dried up to some extent. Would putting some sealant conditioner in it help? The person I bought it from had been driving it fairly regularly and mentioned that reverse was being troublesome but didn't say anything about third. She didn't know much about cars though and the thing's fairly quiet so she probably didn't know it wasn't shifting; it took me a little while to realize as a matter of fact. I do have a spare tranny but am sick of doing tranny swaps...

bbaspense 03-30-2001 12:07 PM

I had that happen in my Big Block Aspen a few year ago. I was driving home and lost 3rd. I got home and lost reverse. I dropped the pan and it was full of Clutch shavings. Rebuild time...sorry.

Make sure you have a GOOD shop do your rebuild. While your in there anyways you should get yourself a lockup up 904 and have them swap the higher first gear into your old 904. I've seen this done many times and it really helps. Many Stock Eliminator guys have passed this trick on to me. I'm going to do this when I build my Crate Motor car.

Also you can put a performance converter in since the tranny will be out. I have seen many high 14 second 318 cars with little or no modifications run and still keep it's excellent durability and mileage.

Jason
indychamp@hotmail.com

Jkat 03-30-2001 11:59 PM

skips 2nd
 
Hi swinger 340 ,iv'e got the same problem with my 904, since my last rebuild ther tranny does not hold second at all and skips straight to 3rd, it was fine before the rebuild. Under power and manul shifting it holds all the gears fine. Also i've noticed that taking off from the lights when hot and under load, it jolts when it starts goin, as if it where in neutral at the lights. I checked and cleaned the vbody straight after the rebuild, everything seemed ok and made no diff. I also have no partial throttle kick down, ie it only kicksdown at wot. I've been driving it like this for 800km and until something brakes i'm goin to leave it until I can think of a solution.

Jims451 03-31-2001 07:47 PM

If the linkages is adjusted correctly....
Make sure the front band is adjusted correctly, if it is too tight it won't release.
It mat be the clutches are worn out or the valve body is messed up.

I list third gear once on a fairly fresh rebuild (with shift kit.)
The shift kits increased pressure blew out (cracked) a fluid passage wall in the valve body so the trans never would shift into third gear.

ben440brown 04-01-2001 12:40 AM

Jkat -- sounds like your throttle linkage (to trans) is not adjusted properly -- it needs more pressure!

Adjust it until the shift points are right and the part-throttle kickdown works.

Good Luck

ben

tsteiner61 04-01-2001 01:21 AM

I had the same problem about 8 months ago with same tranny. I went absolutely NUTS, pulled the tranny out (I swear to God -- 4 TIMES). Turned out to be a very simple fix, the tranny never had to come out at all. Rear servo is stuck. Solution: Remove valve body, pull servo out, lubricate generously with petroleum jelly or equivalent, reinstall.. Test, if you have an air compressor, put it at 40psi and stick in the hole that controls the rear servo and blast. If the servo doesn't move, that is definitely the problem.

goose 04-01-2001 04:08 AM

found the trouble
 
I pulled the pan off yesterday, there's lots of shavings inside... looks like tranny swap time. Ah well.

Jkat 04-01-2001 07:43 PM

rear servo
 
tseiner61, by rear servo do you mean the low and reverse servo. The throttle linkage is set as follows:
No throttle = 0% kickdown pulled back
1/4 throttle=25% kickdown
1/2 =50%
3/4 =75%
wot =98% (so that it changes gears at 5500 in drive)
It kicks down ok only at wot. Do you thin it's the rear servo as reverse works ok, but it does bang a bit when it goes in reverse.

ben440brown 04-01-2001 09:12 PM

Jkat, thanks for your detailed reply. The throttle pressure should be higher than your current adjustment. Unlike Ford adjustments, the 904 needs more than 0% at closed throttle. Give it some pressure! As for reverse, nothing is wrong there, according to what you reported.

Good Luck

Ben

goose 04-02-2001 12:34 PM

My RR does that; if it's been sitting for a few days I need to put it in neutral and bring up the RPM's to fill up the converter before shifting it into gear (after idling down again of course). The problem with the Dart going into reverse feels very different from what happens to my RR. After shifting into gear once with the RR, the transmission works just fine. It takes many bang-into-reverse before the thing starts working OK in the Dart. We're going to try replacing fluid/filter today just for the hell of it... lots cheaper than new tranny! The fluid came out bad looking (slightly burned and dirty) so new F+F may do the trick. <fingers crossed!>

WayneT 04-02-2001 09:44 PM

Hey goose
 
This past weekend I put in a shift kit and replaced the shifter shaft seal on my 904. I got 5 quarts of fluid out of it but only had 4 1/2 of fresh fluid to put in. I went for a test drive and had the exact symptoms you have. Put it in gear and it would rev up and slam into gear and no third gear. I thought I screwed up! Added another quart and everything is fine. I know you said you added fluid but did you check it properly? Just a thought.

ben440brown 04-02-2001 10:16 PM

Actually, a70duster, when the transmission shifts to second gear, the low sprag overruns. When the trans shifts to third, the sprag is still overrunning. If the 2-3 shift fails, as in the kickdown band releases, but the direct clutch does not apply, the trans 'neutrals out' because the low sprag is still overruning! Only when the vehicle slows enough for the sprag to 'catch up' under torque from the engine and lock again does the trans return to first gear. This happens with a manual valve body like the Cheetah that does not apply the low/reverse band in first gear, when you forget to shift -- then let off the gas. The torque applied back through the driveshaft forces the sprag to overrun, then it has to catch up again under torque from the engine, unless the vehicle speed is too great for the sprag to catch up and lock again. That is why the factory valve body applies the low/reverse band in maual low -- for engine braking. That's also why it says on the box and in the instructions for the Cheetah manual reverse valve body "Not for street use" --- safety reasons. Believe me, engine braking is a good thing in a panic stop situation, especially with manual 4-wheel drum brakes!

Just a clarification. Not trying to be picky, but I do transmissions every day, so I share the dark secrets of that black box called an automatic transmission to you all so that you avoid some of the mistakes others have made (including me).

Ben 440 Brown

Oh, yeah -- and as was explained previously, since no fluid flows to the converter in Park, the fluid level reads high--that's why we Moparites check the fluid in neutral.

WayneT 04-02-2001 10:39 PM

Hey Ben440Brown
 
I was just wondering...my 904 seems to shift very early. Even at WOT it shifts around 3500 - 4000 rpm. Normal driving it's in 3rd by 30mph. I've adjusted the throttle linkage 2 ways, WOT and linkage all the way back, and throttle closed linkage all the way forward (per the shift kit instructions). Doesn't seem to make a difference. The tranny has a fresh rebuild. Is there something else I need to adjust?

ben440brown 04-03-2001 10:33 PM

You leapt too soon, a70duster. The powerflow does not revert to first gear at speed. When the kickdown band is applied, the sun gear is held stationary, yes. The powerflow is from the input annulus gear (clockwise) to the input planetary, which walks around the sun gear, driving the output shaft in reduction. The rear annulus, by virtue of being splined to the output shaft, drives the reaction planet clockwise, overruning the sprag and also walking around its sun gear, which is also held stationary, being attached to the input sun gear. The reaction planet is ineffective, since it is not splined to anything else.

Now, if the sun gears are released, they also tend to spin clockwise, since every other element of the planetary set is also spinning clockwise at a rate equal to the output shaft. This is, in fact, what happens when the direct clutch applies to lock the sun gear to the input ring gear. If the direct clutch slips or fails to apply, all the elements are still spinning clockwise, but the torque of the engine is not transmitted to the output shaft. Instead, either the forward momentum of the vehicle tends to keep everything spinning clockwise, or the vehicle slows. As the output shaft slows, the sun gears and the reaction planet slow until applied torque allows the sun gears and the reaction planet to react, spin counterclockwise, lock the low sprag, and then we have first gear. But, over a certain output shaft speed, applied engine torque only serves to spin the input annulus and sun gears clockwise faster, thus spinning the reaction planet clockwise as well, the neutral condition.

The key here is that for the reaction planet to react and turn counterclockwise to lock the low sprag, there must be applied torque to push the reaction planet counterclockwise. At rest, when the trans is shifted into forward, the output shaft is stationary, thus holding the rear annulus and the input planet stationary. The input shaft turns at engine speed, causing first gear as previously explained by you. As long as the engine is applying torque, the sprag continues to hold. But if in first gear, no upshift occurs (and the low band is not applied), and applied torque falls off, there no longer is torque turning the reaction planet counterclockwise to lock the sprag, and all turns together, albeit without torque transmittal to the rear wheels. This is, in fact, the road test procedure to test the integrity of the low/reverse band (or clutch, depending on the trans). If the car neutrals out and won't engine brake in manual low, the band is not applying (and the vehicle probably won't back up, either).

Remember what I said before -- I've been a transmission man for 17 years now -- I've driven countless broken cars and trucks that did this.

Ben 'the last word' Brown

coach71 04-04-2001 03:02 PM

Damn, I'm lost on all this stuff....... If the tranny don't shift and I'm planning on rebuilding it later anyway I just put a little brake fluid (DOT 3) in it, it'll sometimes clear it up, maybe not forever but hey it was already broke you sure can't hurt it much.

ben440brown 04-04-2001 08:00 PM

a70duster:

(1) the time on this bulletin board is GMT -- I'm 6 hours back from that, since I live on the East Coast. So it was 9:30 PM my local time when I posted the last message.

(2) Obviously, you have never driven a car or truck with a burnt up direct clutch, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

(3) Book learning will only get you a basic grasp of what's going on; experience is the best teacher. When you experience at least a few hundred bad transmissions, then fix them, you will really understand how they work.

(4) What DO you do for a living, a70duster??

Ben 440 Brown

ben440brown 04-06-2001 11:30 PM

All right, a70duster, here is the overview of the whole debate:

Originally, I was trying to help goose decide whether his trans was failing to upshift and staying in second (it was) or whether it lost third gear. I said, "Does the transmission neutral out (engine revs, but quits pulling) when it tries to shift to third, or does it stay in second?" A few posts later, you said, "If the tranny was shifting into third, the direct clutch didn't engage, and the front band disengaged, the tranny would go to first gear. Rear clutches are engaged and the sprag on the low/reverse drum would be locked." And here is where the problems started.

I explained in my next post why the low sprag would not immediately engage, then re-explained why in my rebuttal post immediately following your picture. Both of us sort of agreed that without torque applied (like taking your foot off the throttle), the transmission would freewheel. But we disagree on what happens if you apply torque again. Of course, you come across as an arrogent know-it-all what with the tone of "Actually Ben, you are wrong" header for your post, in front of everyone on the 'board. You could have used a different tone, or even sent me a private message so we wouldn't take turns embarrassing one another or ourselves in front of everyone else. Just because you are a rocket engineer doesn't make you an expert on cars, women, gardening, or whatever hobby you have. So, here's my final words on the subject:

First of all, to check the condition of a faulty transmission, the road test would first be a normal acceleration from a stop, under light (20%) throttle. That is when the neutral condition of which I speak occurs -- when you try to cruise at, say, 40 MPH in Drive and the direct clutch fails to apply, then you have that freewheeling condition. Applying LIGHT throttle in an attempt to maintain speed doesn't apply enough torque nor provide enough RPM's to cause the reaction planet to rotate counterclockwise, lock the sprag, and revert to the first gear powerflow. If the road speed of the vehicle is slow enough, you will get first again with throttle, BUT not if the engine RPM's need to be excessively high. Why?

When you mash the gas to the floor, guess what? The trans kicks down hydraulically to SECOND gear! Since the 2-3 shift valve was stroked, the trans was hydraulically in third. Revving the engine to high RPM's as you stated in a subsequent post will stroke the throttle valve detent, routing fluid to the throttle valve in the 2-3 shift valve lineup, overcoming governor pressure and stroking the shift valve to the downshift position, which in turn dumps direct oil from the release side of the kickdown servo, allowing apply oil from the 1-2 shift valve (still stroked to the upshift position) which is still applying pressure to the apply side of the servo, to stroke the servo piston and apply the kickdown band again -- second gear.

So the transmission DOES care how fast the car is going. The hydraulics of automatic transmissions are much more difficult to understand than the mechanicals, but cannot be ignored.

So, you were partially right, but let me tell you, if you are trying to find out whether you have third or not, even flooring it and going as fast as you can in second (up to redline) still won't get you first again -- that's when you really are going too fast for first -- the engine won't turn any faster, so it can't apply torque to lock the low sprag. In fact, the maximum road speed that the scenario you espouse can happen is that speed at which the engine is at or near redline IN FIRST GEAR. Any faster, and the engine is incapable of applying torque at the RPM's required to relock the low sprag.

We both did agree that as long as torque can be applied, the engine won't freewheel in first, and if you let off in first, then get back on it, it will pull some more in first. Same is true in the case of a Turbo 350 wiith no third - it will freewheel, but if you get back on it, it will pick up second again.

As for my credentials...see the following post.

ben440brown 04-06-2001 11:49 PM

Credentials
 
You assume too much...

1984 - 1986 Solar Maximum Mission, Goddard Space Flight Center. I actually was employed by Lockheed Martin as an intern while in High School. I analyzed data from NOAA satellites, then used that data to select data from the Solar Max to process and generate 'pictures' representing soft X-Ray emissions from the sun.

I also started at Bowie Transmission Service as an apprentice in 1984. I learned how to build and diagnose first. I did not start out as an R & R tech. I built my first 20 transmissions while attending high school.

By the way, I completed a science/tech magnet high school program, major in Chemistry. Math through Calculus.

Graduated Magna Cum Laude, Phi Beta Kappa, St. Lawrence University, 1992, B.S. double major -- Math and Spanish. Took two years off in the middle to serve a Mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Barcelona, Spain. (Didn't know Spanish before that.) Still fluent.

Two years of Grad work towards a Masters in Math, Clarkson University, but regrettably, did not finish. Ran out of support, so I returned to work -- on cars again. Of course, I supported myself through college that way, too. Been doing this for some time now. I attend the ATSG seminars every year.

Most units I overhaul are late model, electronically controlled, and both foreign (Japanese) and domestic. I am also assigned the unenviable job of scanning and repairing electrical problems, etc. The old stuff is easier, but no longer profitable. Front wheel drive is definitly where it's at.

oh, yeah - the money is better than the teacher I thought I wanted to be when I started grad school would make.

So much for tooting my horn, but a70duster asked for it. Hopefully this post will quicky fade to page 5.

(I'm a musician, too...Drums, Bass guitar, piano, organ...)

Ben 440 forgettaboutit Brown

goose 04-08-2001 12:22 PM

Now that the pissing contest is over...
 
We changed fluid and filter and that didn't help it at all. Our last step will be to try and adjust the bands, since the fluid we pulled out was nasty brown and dirty looking we figure the bands are probably not adjusted correctly. Since the tranny doesn't neutral out in the 2-3 shift, the bands probably aren't the problem, but it can't hurt to try. Besides which I've never adjusted bands correctly before (never had a square socket and inch-pound wrench until just now) and am itching to try.

goose 04-09-2001 12:46 PM

Also we don't have the money for a rebuild... and she needs the car to run as of oh, 2 weeks ago! We have a spare tranny to put in it but people keep contacting us about buying the car that it's in, then backing out. We are just going to put our spare /6 and tranny into the Fury and keep the 318/904, that way the Fury stays driveable and we have a spare 318 and tranny. Also the /6 will finally get gone, yeeha!


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