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-   -   Car Crafts 383 to 443 stroker build up? (http://www.moparchat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88516)

rumblefish360 02-24-2005 05:21 PM

Thanks djswwg. .020 isn't a whole lot, but workable no doubt.

bigiron 02-27-2005 06:57 PM

This is an interesting thread...

If you run your "street" car anything like I do, it's more of a weekend warrior than a dayly driver... with that being said... how much abuse do you think you are going to visit on the engine?

There is no way in gods green earth that any of my engines in any of my "street" cars are ever going to see 30,000 miles without several teardowns to add new and improved goodies. That's the whole purpose of their existance.

If I can put a 451 together for a little of nothing using existing parts or a 499 for that matter, that's what I'm going to do. which one is more bullet proof??? Don't care.. It's not going to go 10,000 let alone 30,000 miles.

I know some of you guys aren't like that... but most of you are pulling wrenches on that thing all the time... if it's running flawlessly we have to dig in there and find out why... Otherwise we get bored with the car... Someone has the tag line "If it's not broke, fix it until it is" There is alot of truth to that statement for alot of us...

For the money I have in the HEMI and the Ferd project, I could have 5 or 6 projects completed.... BUT my next couple projects are going to be budget jobs... I have 2 400s and 2 440s and 1 383 to play with...

I'll be watching this thread to learn alittle more about just which way I'm going to go...

JL 02-27-2005 10:50 PM

A point and a question. Mighty fine small blocks out there with 2.5 inch main bearings. B blocks with 2.625 inch mains should work. And the low deck intakes are not as good? Not as available?

djswwg 02-27-2005 11:28 PM

The only reason stuff breaks is because it wasn't machined properly, balanced correctly, or put together right. This assumes you use decent parts. If you run stock rods with cheesy 3/8" bolts,a cast crank, and heavy old pistons it's gonna come unglued. Use quality H or I-beams with 7/16" bolts, a 4340 steel crank and light forged pistons and keep the rev limiter under 7200 or so and it'll go forever without much more than new crank bearings every 2-3 years. Change the rings and rod bolts every second tear down and that should about do it!.......djs. ps, I've never seen a forged crank break either! does someone actually have this on film???????? cause I'd really like to have a picture of one :drool:

pishta 02-28-2005 02:06 AM

BigIron, Ill hand it to you. When my 340 was running like a top, I got scared. sure as sh!t, I lost a rod about a week later! I bought my present project almost 10 years ago and I dont think I logged over 1000 miles on it. It is almost more fun to work on than drive. When I drive it, I dont even turn the radio on (original one, cant change the station anyway) Im too interested in listening to the drivetrain for any weird sound. Call me scared, call me cautious, call me poor (that makes more sense) because when something happens, it is a matter of weeks or more before I can budget the funds for a crank kit, or a diff, or whatever. Heck, I've been working on a trans cooler with hard lines for 2 weeks now, all but about an hour a weekend, got alot done tonight though. Gotta love them Oscars to keep the old lady off your back for a few hours!

George G. Leverette 02-28-2005 03:49 AM

I really have some problems with the self proclaimed experts who with some opinions and an unscientific method, state that Chrysler with hundreds of engineers working on engines that have to stay glued together are not knowledgeable of their products. A machine mechanic with the same (1) experience in 30 years is a tired argument. When people are in the business of selling parts or service are adamant about only their products it makes one wonder? 60 over 440s factually how many can be safely done? These articles appear to be self-serving and of very limited or no value to the Mopar person who is in need of or searching for factual information, reminescent of reading some magazine articles. Can any one answer the question, which is the best stroke for cost of construction, longevity, performance perimeters\parameters on different Mopar engines???

djswwg 02-28-2005 09:22 AM

George G, that's a tuff question which really needs to be answered first with what is the application for the engine and how big (or small) is your budget. I don't know that there is really one specific answer to your question but here's my opinion, for what it's worth. One a cost per power and longevity factor, I'd go with a 400 to 451 stroker. Why? Max cubes and strength, and you can use a crank and rods from a 440.
As too how many 60 over 440's last, I've never seen one fail because the overbore was too big. How many have you seen, or do you know of that failed because of a too big overbore?.........djs

Mopar4LIF 02-28-2005 05:54 PM

I would like to just put my personnal experience in on this. I am 21 years old and barely finished my project car (73 roadrunner) this last year. I spent three years on the car and did what I could in terms of parts and cost. My shortblock is nothing fancy (73 340) by any means but I worked with what I had. It consists of stock factory rods which I had checked, maged, shot peened, the ends resized, and put good ARP bolts in. I put some stock replacement keith black hypereutetic pistons in the holes on a .020 over job on the block, and have a factory cast crank ground 10/10 under. And for good measure put in a factory windage tray. Then had the rotating assembly balanced and put everything together using quality arp bolts. Nothing fancy or ultra high dollar. I have had NO problems with my motor what so ever. Sure I beat on it from time to time, but it is always maintenanced and checked constantly. Some people argue that one SHOULD put high dollar h beams and forged slugs in a motor. Generally if you don't RAIL i.e beat the hell out of the motor, always turning high rpms, etc.... You should be fine. but for the average "work a day" guy like myself this is not so easily accomplished due to limited funds. I would spend weeks saving for just one more part on my car, my car was paid all in cash no credit card touched anything on it. If anything I have learned from buddies blowing up there cars either they put too much stress on them (nitrous, too much boost) or they are not properly put together (mismatched parts, no balancing of the rotating assembly, very low grade parts, inproper installation of parts).
Sure my budget motor is not ultra impressive but my 340 serves me fine and brings the power on pretty healthy when called on to do so with no issues involved.
-Jon

rumblefish360 02-28-2005 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JL
A point and a question. Mighty fine small blocks out there with 2.5 inch main bearings. B blocks with 2.625 inch mains should work. And the low deck intakes are not as good? Not as available?

I have noted some of the low deck intakes have fuel distribution problems that are easlie cure via damns on the floor. MoPar out lines this very clearly on there intakes and how it's done and where. They should be a on the shelf product.

chris67gt 06-27-2005 08:03 PM

Some random musings on 400/451
 
Re the 400/451 combo: I am considering this eventually because the motor I have now is a bone stock, unmolested '73 400 with 74K miles on it. I plan to drop this into my '69 Sport Satellite, once I pull the 318/904. The 400 currently sits in a '73 Coronet. The 727 behind it is also still in great shape. I guess the 400/727 would probably keep running for years, so a required rebuild is a ways off - if time and $$$ permits, maybe a build-up will happen sooner.

Now if I had a '73 (or earlier) 440/727 sitting around I would probably install and later rebuild that - but I don't. Unfortunately, they are not real easy to find at a reasonable price. For example, I was at the Capital City Mopar Show & Swap Meet this weekend (Sacramento, CA) and someone had a complete '69 440 with a 727 attached resting in the back of a trailer. The 727 needed a longer tailshaft (was at some point in a van). Had been sitting around for "several years." Since my car is a '69, I asked the seller "how much?" His firm price was $1,000. So, given that I want to stay married (ha ha), I passed on the deal. Also troubling me was the fact that I couldn't hear the motor run, see how the 727 functioned etc. Like many hobbyists, my time is limited due to work/family and it could be some time before I was able determine what condition the motor was in.

Now in comparison, my '73 Coronet runs and drives better than most 31 year old cars. It runs cool and has a compete factory A/C set-up with *everything* pertinent still under the hood that should be there (my Sport Satellite is also a factory air car BUT is absent everything in front of the firewall that came from the factory!). The Coronet only cost me $600 complete, and with a few minor power-adders (intake/carb/headers etc.) I'm hoping the 400 will move the Satellite with some amount of enthusiasm - it hazes the tires real easy in the Coronet....Also, if I want to change the upper control arms, I should be able to use the front disc brake set-up from the Coronet (I know there's lots of discussion on this topic as well.)

So, that is why I am starting with a 400 - it runs well and it is what I have available to me now. Plus, it was much easier to justify buying a complete running car, than yet another one that will only languish in the side yard.

Re the reliability of a 400/451, given that I am building a street car (400-425 hp is the target w/lots of torque) I've spoken to Speed-o-Motive, Hughes Engines, Muscle Motors etc. and they have consistently told me the 451 I am considering would not have reliability issues. But then again, I am not building a high HP/high RPM motor.

One point that may be off-topic, but is worth considering: given the 400 is a larger bore (albeit much lower compression) 383...wouldn't it stand to reason that a 400 built to "383 specs" would perform quite well in a street car? I have seen a few 383 rebuilds, build-ups (mild to wild), but never a 400.

Dave 572 06-27-2005 10:21 PM

I hate to open a can of worms suggesting "cheap parts",but Brandon at 440 source has 2 rods for the 400 stroker combo.The 6.7"s and 6.535" for more piston CH(IIRC).I think both have the .990 pins and Mopar big end dimensions to cure the side clearance issue.$369/set. I also believe he is working on,or already has out, a 3.90 b main crank that takes the 2.2" Shivvy rod.

Say what you want about "cheap parts", but at least it's not 40 year old fatiqued metal.And until the stuff breaks, I'm going to give it a chance.

Personally, I'm waiting for his 4.25, 2.20 pin RB crank to come out.My only other option is a Callies crank,and I really don't need that much of a safety margin at this altitude.

No, I'm not Brandon nor do I work for him. :thumbsup:

Glen440 06-27-2005 10:28 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I'll put in my opinion.

I have seen several 440's snap cranks. The main webbing lets go first, crank snaps in a few places and everything in the bottom end is lost. I'll go diggin for pics. Block is the weak link and not the crank.

When I step up to around 500 cubes I will use a 400 block and put a girdle on it. The long rod thing is over rated. Look at what Kaase was doing in the engine masters competition. His 470 was basically a 383 with a 4.15 crank. 4.25 bore 4.15 crank. Rods were 6.15, he says rods 2" more than crank are good. Pistons came out of bore at BDC so he put in custom sleeves. The last part the Pro stock guys pick in the rotating assembly is the rods. They say it just connects the crank to the piston. They are in the 1.70 range, 3.6 stroke or so.

I personally would not build a 383 stroker. Too much valve shrouding when you drop a big valve head on it. If I had all the parts to do it sitting infront of me I would. If I had a 383 infront of me I would try it even.

I have a .060 440 that has lived 10 years so far in a drag car that ran 10's.

I'm one of the few running a stock stroke 400


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