Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide!

Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide! (http://www.moparchat.com/forums/index.php)
-   Circle Track Chat (http://www.moparchat.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=40)
-   -   Typical Oiling Modifications (http://www.moparchat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43816)

sanborn 12-27-2001 02:44 AM

Typical Oiling Modifications
 
1 Attachment(s)
Early in November, I posted that we were building a SB for a friend to use in limited late model at the local track. To review, this is a 362" engine, W2 headed, non ported head, flat top piston, flat tappet camshaft. We think the engine will have to turn 8000 frequently(because of competition) so we have pretty much done everything we think necessary to live in that kind of environment. The oiling system is wet sump(because of cost). In this class, dry sump oiling systems are legal.

The modifications are fairly straight forward and can be accomplished with some extra long drill bits, rotary files and a lot of patience and care. I must admit, being an old geezer, and owning a Bridgeport, I did a lot of my work in the mill using the power feed to bore the holes. But, you can do the same thing using a hand drill.

Oiling Philosophy- My belief is all an oiling system must do is oil the rod bearings properly at max RPM. The trick is to get an adequate supply of oil to all the rod bearings. In order to do this you must start at the very beginning-the oil pickup.

For this engine we chose a Canton oil pan and pickup. The pan looked real good and at first look the pickup did too but closer inspection of the pickup reveiled some problems. The pickup tube is 3/4" OD and 5/8" ID. That's good but where they welded the pickup tube to the base, the weld flowed through the tube and closed the ID down to 1/2" in places. That's too small. We ground the excess weld away inside the tube to make the opening 5/8"

sanborn 12-27-2001 03:01 AM

1 Attachment(s)
To backtrack a little, when we got all our parts together and started measuring we found most of the oiling passages in the pump and block were .400" to .420" in diameter. This is OK for a lower RPM engine but for our application we felt the passages must be enlarged to insure oiling. After looking closely at everything we decided .500" minimum passages were possible. How much is that extra diameter worth, about 40% more flow. That's a bunch!.

We wanted the pickup tube to be larger, 5/8" because that's the suction side and that large a intake is necessary to feed a 1/2" line under pressure.

Next we looked at the pump, it is a Mellings High volume. The oiling passage is .420" out of the box. We enlarged this to .500". Be very careful when drilling by hand it's easy to get off and hang the drill bit(hard on the wrist). Try to do this in a drill press if possible. After the hole is enlarged, carefully blend the opening in the pump to the hole. Oil doesn't like to flow around sharp corners and a little blending eliminates any oil flow turbulence inside the pump.

When we bolted the pump to the rear main cap, we got a surprise-the two oil passages didn't meet at all! Look at the photo of the rear main cap to see how much we had to slot the cap to make the passages meet!

sanborn 12-27-2001 03:20 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I neglected to add, we also drilled the passage in the rear cap to 1/2" as well. The larger hole in the rear cap matched to the vertical oiling hole in the block very nicely. That vertical hole intersects with a hortizontal hole that carries the oil out to the oil filter area. We drilled this hole out as well to 1/2". We then tapped the hole 3/8" NPT for a fitting to be attached to carry the oil to a remote filter(I will explain why later). Where the vertical hole and hortizontal hole intersect, look very closely to see they meet properly, most don't. And, oil doesn't like to flow smoothly around sharp corners so we got a rotary file with a 1/2" round head and carefully rounded the intersection of the vertical and horizontal hole. That makes the oil flow more smoothly.

OK, we have enlarged the lower hortizontal hole in the block, tapped it 3/8" for a hose fitting. Now, we need to do the same for the upper hortizontal hole. Here we got a surprise! On this block, the hole wasn't drilled all the way through. It was less than 3/8" in diameter at the very end. We repeated the procedure, drill the passage to 1/2" and tap to 3/8" NPT. We couldn't round this intersection because it is so far inside the block. So we had to leave it alone.

sanborn 12-27-2001 03:36 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Excuse me, had to get a coffee refill!

Remember we said earlier that we fed the oil(#12 line) to a remote filter? At the filter we split the return to the block. One # 12 line goes back to the rear of the block AND a #8 feed line goes to the front of the block. "X" and "R" blocks have provisions to feed oil from both ends. And for high RPM applications we believe it is necessary.

Too many times we have seen front rod bearing failure at high RPMs. We believe it is due to oil starvation. The problem is partially solved with 48 degree "R" blocks but it is still a good idea. Here we drilled and tapped a 1/4" NPT hole for a #8 feed line. We could have made it larger but don't think it is necessary and the smaller line made it easier to get around the fuel pump.

sanborn 12-27-2001 03:45 AM

1 Attachment(s)
OK so you don't have an "X" or "R" block. What do you do? This next photo shows how you can accomplish the same thing with a standard block.

Drill a 7/16" hole and tap it for 1/4" NPT, run a steel line from that fitting to the back of the block. Drill a 3/4" hole in the back of the block right beside the oil pressure passage and directly below the intake surface. Install a #8 bulkhead fitting in the hole at the back of the block and connect it to the line coming from the front. Then connect to a remote filter and presto you feed the oil galley from both ends. Your bearings will thank you!

sanborn 12-27-2001 04:02 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Next let's go to the main bearings. The passage from the main oiling galley(that's now fed from both ends) goes to the main bearings via a 1/4" drilled hole(some blocks are drilled 17/64"). We want to enlarge these holes to 9/32". Use a 12" long electricians drill and carefully drill from the main bearing area up to the main galley. This will do two things; enlarge the passage and ensure the holes are fully drilled. We have found holes not fully drilled many times. Some builders drill the front hole to 9/32" and the center three main bearing are drilled to 5/16". This is OK too. The passage in the rear main is large enough from the factory(5/16").

The next photo is very important! It shows how we modify the main bearings. We machine a slot in the mains approximately 1/2" in length and 1/4" in width. Why? The slot in the bearing now fits the slot in the block. And an oiling slot(versus a hole) in the bearing gives the rod bearing feed hole in the crankshaft more time to fully fill up with each revolution. For very high RPM engines(such as this) we enlarge the slot in the block to 5/8" in length and make the slot in the bearing the same length.

sanborn 12-27-2001 04:10 AM

1 Attachment(s)
This engine is being built with Jesel rockers that feed oil to the rockers through the pushrods. So good , consistent oiling of rockers is essential. But we don't want to feed the left side oil passage from the front main bearing as a standard block does. So we block the passage that goes from the front main bearing up to the left side oil galley. We do this with a deep freeze plug in the left side oil galley to cover the hole.

sanborn 12-27-2001 04:16 AM

1 Attachment(s)
We then feed the left side oil galley by drilling and tapping a 1/8" NPT hole in the front of the right side galley and drill and tap a 1/8" NPT hole in the center of the left side galley. We connect the two with a 3/16" steel line. This insures constant feed of oil to the left side without possible starvation of the front main.

You will note the aluminum block off plate over the cam opening. This is done to keep oil from being thrown up into the valley by the crank/camshaft.

sanborn 12-27-2001 04:22 AM

That pretty well covers the subject. I'm sure I probably forgot something.

A lot of what we did is maybe overkill. But I would rather have too much oil at the rod bearings any time than not enough.

If you see something there you don't understand or don't agree with, let's talk about it.

Right now though, I think I have already turned into a pumpkin. I will be back in the morning, er, later in the morning.

sanborn 12-27-2001 11:00 AM

1 Attachment(s)
It's wonderful how a cup of coffee helps to charge ones batteries in the morning!

I know a lot of you get tired of some of us talking about "X" and "R" blocks at times. Most of you work with stock blocks only. I understand, did the same thing for many years. So for those of you that haven't even seen a "R" block, here is a photo of one of the first "R" blocks. There are several later versions but at least you can see what the 48 degree lifter bores look like.

sanborn 12-27-2001 11:09 AM

The oiling system modifications described earlier are for typical limited engine oval track racing. If you get into really high RPM oval track racing,IE, Nascar Supertrucks, Super Late Model, etc. there are additional modifications to be done to the block, bearings and other components. Or if you use high vacuum dry sump systems there are other things to do.

We have also found several things to do to the cooling system to produce more consistent cooling throughout the RPM range.

Now that I have discovered a new toy(publishing photos on the net), I will probably bore you with all this stuff.

Got to get to work!

jimm II 12-27-2001 08:11 PM

Thought all the mods were GREAT....we used some of these for our late model,few years back. Just a couple of thoughts , we made a stamped tin valley baffle to keep the oil from being flung by the camshaft.Was a lot of fun going around the oil lines that deverted the lifter oil :D . Now on your valley photo ,the valley drain back holes did you inlarge them or cover them to return the oil to the rear of the engine,by cam gear.. Also very good idea of painting the inside of block ,helps seal poris block (cast) and aids in drain back to oil pan where oil is needed....Thanks for the pics they are a great help to all of use here. JimmII:cool:

sanborn 12-28-2001 12:22 PM

I appreciate the kind comments guys. I am from the old school. When I started racing(late 50s-early 60s) you couldn't buy hardly anything, you had to make it. So when I got back in(with my son) we did it the old fashion way and made practically everything. It was a whole lot cheaper and also a good teaching vehicle for Jeff. That's the way I did it with Josh Donnell, the young man that owns the SB in the photos, he did it all, I just provided the shop and showed him how and what to do. And tried to explain why at the same time. I consider it my duty(as an old geezer) to help bring up the next generation of racers.

I don't mind showing our engines to our friendly competitors either. First off, none of them build their own, they buy them, and it I can convince one of them to change to Mopar power then maybe I have done my job. I guess if we ever get to the point where we beat them enough they may look a whole lot closer.

I'm sure some of you have suspected this from my comments in the past but I am not a "dyed in the wool" Mopar guy. I have raced them all but have gradually got to the point where I like to race Mopars best. In that same shop where the photos were taken was one 289" Ford (two four equipped), one 283" GM (blower equipped) and one Flathead Ford(Fenton equipped). Those are my toys in various stages of getting ready for the street again.

Now, back to the questions asked. We did not block off the return oil holes above the camshaft. There were two reasons-most of the oil is thrown up in the valley by the cam/crankshaft and we felt covering the cam would take care of most oil slinging and the oil must have someway to get back to the pan. Without the suction value of a dry sump, oil can accumulate up top and never get back down.

I have painted blocks/ heads for years. Don't remember when I started. I use Rustoleum Primer only! And make sure the block is very clean and free of oil before you paint! And I have never had a problem with the paint coming off. I believe(and I may be crazy) that paint helps seal in those little grains of sand that occasionally are released by an iron casting under heat/racing conditions. I think my bearings look better because of the painted interior.

jelsr 01-06-2002 02:33 PM

Hi again,
Good stuff, have a friend who builds I-Mod engines
and has experienced problems as of late. This may be of help. I've painted the interior of engines for years also. Raced a Harley for 20yrs. They were done with Rustoleum Damp Proof Red Primer and I've also heard of using a laquer base primer. For those not in the know about diameter vs flow, if you double the dia, you increase the volume by 4.

sanborn 01-07-2002 10:38 AM

Glad you liked the photos, hope they are of some help to your friend. There are some other really crazy things we have done over the years as well that were more trouble than they were worth(I didn't include them).

RacerX 02-19-2002 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sanborn
OK, we have enlarged the lower hortizontal hole in the block, tapped it 3/8" for a hose fitting. Now, we need to do the same for the upper hortizontal hole. Here we got a surprise! On this block, the hole wasn't drilled all the way through. It was less than 3/8" in diameter at the very end. We repeated the procedure, drill the passage to 1/2" and tap to 3/8" NPT. We couldn't round this intersection because it is so far inside the block. So we had to leave it alone.

On the advice of the Mopar engine book I am getting ready to perform this mod to my 1976 360 block. I have a couple questions though.

I installed a remote oil filter and a oil cooler but the hoses that came with the kit mount to hose barbs with clamps and they've blown off twice. Had the local hydraulic shop make me up some 3000psi hoses with the proper fittings to eliminate the blowing problem.

My question arises from checking a dead '71 318 I have laying in the junkpile to test-fit my components. I find that one hole (the upper one) is already tapped and ready to go-- just remove the plug that is in it. However, the lower hole is not tapped. The engine book seems to imply that it is already drilled to the appropriate size and all you have to do is tap it. Not the case. The hole is too small. My question is are all of the engines the same? That is, if I pop the filter adapter off the 360 will I find the same size hole? If so that is huge bummer because the motor is in the vehicle (a van) and even if I have the room in there to drill it I don't think I want to be drilling holes in an active engine. ALTHOUGH--- this is the oil "out" hole, so I suppose a hose pointed into a bucket and a few turns of the engine with the starter could clean it out.

Anyone have any insight? I don't have another 360 to check and don't want to take apart the running motor until I know I can complete the job.

Also, my research shows the drill size for a 3/8 pipe thread hole should be 37/64 not 1/2 inch? Are you really able to run a 3/8 pipe tap down a 1/2 inch hole?


Thanks!
Jim

sanborn 02-20-2002 01:14 AM

Racer X, sorry I didn't explain myself very well on that one. The lower hole is not tapped(not in any production engines to my knowledge) and it must be counter drilled to 37/64" before tapping. Frankly, I don't what you can do about drilling in the car other than what you said. Remember, you only need to counter drill about 1" deep.

You can purchase what is called an oil filter block off plate. They bolt on the original oil filter boss on the block with a short 3/4" bolt and have two tapped holes for 3/8"NPT lines. this would eliminate the need for drilling the block.

Be careful using hydraulic lines for engine oiling. 3/8" NPT fittings usually neck down significantly inside the fitting thereby creating a possible restriction. Yours may not but check them anyway.

sanborn 07-07-2002 12:20 PM

Harry, sorry about your misfortune! Ouch!

If you have any questions or problems, just ring me at sanborn@cafes.net.

Charles

dusterbd 07-13-2002 03:10 PM

ok, ive been looking forward to learning more about oiling systems, and afetr reading this i have a few questions.
1. are these mods safe for street/strip/autocross bound engines? itll get plenty of miles on it, so....
2. are different year model stock block castings different? such as, will all this work ok on a 78 360 block without compromising the integrity or strngth of the block?
3. wich is better: volume or pressure? if its volume, then these mods are great. if its pressure, how do i go about getting it? i put a melling high volume pump in, but still only get 35-40 psi hot (with 20-50).
4. who makes a good baffeled pan for a 360? itll ha to fit in a stock duster chassis, so thats a limtation. or am i going to have to get creative with one of the stock pieces of tin that i have floating around?
5. are there any other sources where i can learn more about this? itll really be benificial to me to know the most i can know about small blocks before i start the new engine. after all, i can only spend the money once.
thanks for all the help.
mike

sanborn 07-14-2002 01:39 PM

Good Morning; er, Good Afternoon. Saw you post late last night, didn't respond(tired, not thinking well, etc.-It comes with age I guess).

About the oiling modifications, yes they will work just as well for street/strip applications. Those modifications are just a part of what I consider proper engine preparation.

As far as I know, all the LA engine blocks are basically the same EXCEPT for the front oiling, only "X" and "R" blocks have bosses cast in place for front oiling. But, I describe how to front oil a standard block. It's a little more work but very achievable in the typical home shop.

The modifications described are intended to get the proper volume to the bearings at all times (using a wet sump pump). If you are only able to get 35-45 PSI(hot) at racing engine speed then you have a problem somewhere. And, you have an engine that is not going to last very long. Start at the pump, look for any excessive clearances, mismatched oil flow passages, if you use a remote filter-check to insure the lines are at least 1/2" inside diameter. Check you lifter to block clearance-I've seen lifter bores worn out and allows way too much oil to flow past the lifter. Check main and rod bearing clearances-should be around .0025" and .0023" respectively. Make sure the oiling of the left side lifter galley is properly plugged-I've seen some "professional" engine builders leave the plugs out because they didn't understand what they are there for. A Melling high volume pump should put out 65 PSI at 6000RPM. If you need more pressure than that, Mopar has high pressure relief springs available to raise that to about 75 PSI at 6000 RPM. To get above that you will have to shim the spring to increase pressure.

I can't help you on the oil pan-we don't race standard chassis cars. Maybe some of the other guys can help.

dusterbd 07-14-2002 11:20 PM

one more question i forgot to ask of you sanborn:
will i have to use a relocated oil filter, or can i use the stock 90 degree filter adapter after enlarging the passages?
thanks
mike
also, for the current setup, can i replace the bearings with the motor in the chassis, and if so, how do i get the top half of the mains out without dropping the crank the whole way?
thanks again
mike

sanborn 07-14-2002 11:54 PM

No, you do not have to use a remote filter; BUT, be sure and clean up the passages in the 90 degree mount. AND, try to get as long a filter as possible. Stock type filters just flow enough oil for high RPM use(of course high RPM is in the eye of the beholder).

I hate changing bearings is the car! But, my son can do it in about one hour-pan off to pan on.

He loosens all main caps, removes the front first, carefully uses a thin screwdriver on the upper half of the bearing and GENTLY taps with a hammer to get the bearing started. Once it breaks the seat with the block the bearing rotates on around and out. Repeat for each main bearing. Remove only one cap at a time to change.

sanborn 02-23-2003 08:41 PM

Groundpounder, here you are! I forgot to tell you, if you want the dry sump pan I have, I will take $200 plus whatever the UPS cost is. e-mail me at sanborn@cafes.net.

DIRT DODGE 02-27-2003 11:35 PM

sanborn: Is the front oiling nessasary if you tube the right side galley.and do all the other modifications recommended.

sanborn 02-28-2003 03:37 AM

Feeding oil from the front and rear is probably the last modification necessary. Does it need to be done? Good Question. If you are running in the 7600-8000 RPM range (while hooked up-not spinning) then I believe it's good insurance. And, it's not really that hard nor expensive to do.

If it's my money in the engine-I would do it!

DIRT DODGE 02-28-2003 11:53 AM

Sanborn: I'm running a remote filter on my car and was wondering if what your doing is teeing off the line from the remote line and running it to the front.Also when you tap into the galley for the front oiling are you drilling the hole as far forward possible? and on any particular angle. Also with the tube installed through the right side galley, does this eliminate the need of the cross over tube? Have you ever tried running a remote oil pressure bypass on a wet sump?I installed one last year and really like the ability to adjust my oil pressure externally.Got this idea from Bill Richardson at Ram Racing.

DIRT DODGE 02-28-2003 12:08 PM

1 Attachment(s)
This is a picture of the external oil bypass .

dusterbd 02-28-2003 03:44 PM

sanborn:
what part of tenessee you in? im over in boone nc, and was wondering if it would be at all possible for us to get together so i can see exactly what all these mods your talking about are. id like to get all the knowledge on them that i can before i strip it down to the block for the rebuild, in the process of which i will be performing all these that you recommend.

wow. i just reread that. its confusing. lemme try simplyfing:wanna touch and see in person these mods befpre performing them. can we get together and do that?
thanks.
mike

sanborn 02-28-2003 10:51 PM

Dirt Dodge, gee, you ask a lot of questions:D . Hopefully I can answer them without forgetting(My memory is shorter than my hair)

The easiest way to get two pressure lines to the engine is teeing form a remote filter. Most race remote filters have more than one outlet. I prefer Oberg- System is second best.

When I drill/tap the right side oil galley in the front, I try to find where the cast iron is the thickest(gives you the best threads). But I also try to get as far forward as possible so the fitting can be installed in the block and be ground down flush inside the oil galley from the front end of the block. The easiest angle is straight down from the lifter valley. I just use a hand drill, starting with a small size(1/4") and gradually working up in size.

When you tube the right side lifter galley, it doesn't eliminate the need for the crossover tube. What I'm trying to do with the crossover tube is to eliminate the left side lifter galley from being fed by the front main bearing oil passage. A case can be made for not using the crossover tube IF you are using standard oiling of pushrods and decide to run the left side lifters dry! A lot of people run the left side lifters dry; but, I believe that also can lead to the lifters galling-not rotating properly- and can lead to lifter failure. On our engine, we are oiling through the pushrods (Jessel rockers) so we had to use the crossover tube.

I have not personally used the remote oil pressure bypass. We have used dry sump systems on most of our engine for years. The limited engine we put together last year is being converted to dry sump this year. A friend has used the remote oil pressure bypass with good success. If we had to use wet sumps, we would use one.

Hope this answered your questions-if not, just ring!

dusterbd, I live in Shelbyville, about 50 miles south of Nashville. You are more than welcome to come visit anytime. Shelbyville is about 3 hours from Knoxville and you can come either through Chattanooga or on I-40 to Lebanon, Murfreesboro to Shelbyville. We have the limited engine in short block form right now so you can get a pretty good look. We aren't racing this weekend but we will be racing(the Superlate) next Sunday 3/9. We will probably have the limited engine "buttoned" up by 3/16-3/18. If you want, bring your block down with you.

You can e-mail me at sanborn@cafes.net

Groundpounder18 03-01-2003 06:20 PM

Thanks alot for your help Sanborn. I like the used W8 idea best. Working on the funds for that right now - hopefully, he still has one by the time I get the $$ together. (I was planning on doing the cast iron motor Johnny Cash style - "One Piece at a Time" - as I got the $$)


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:34 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.