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  #1  
Old 06-01-2013, 10:49 AM
78RedExpress 78RedExpress is offline
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Default Best sticking lifter therapy ?

Orig. owner of 98 quad cab 4x4 V-10 gas truck with 103,000 miles , oil always been changed every 3 -5K miles.

Sudden appearance of fairly loud valve-train clacking upon startup this week. People across parking lot notice sound and look. Oil level is fine and sound goes completely away (sofar) as engine begins to warm up and is gone within 4 minutes.

Live in central Florida and for past 40K miles I have run straight 30 or even some straight 30 -40 mixed oil.

this weekend going to change oil as truck is about 3500 miles on this oil change and will get the correct multigrade oil back in it.

Is there any additive youall would recommend running before I drain that old oil out that may help that lifter?

This truck has had several to many instances in the past 7 years where it sat for 3 weeks to maybe 2 months at a time without being run. Other that that would say it has had excellent care.

Thinking about that contracted lifter and that roller cam lobe comming around and smacking that roller on the lifter and hopeing it hasn't damaged either of them, or doesn't pop the push rod outta whatever sockets are holding it in place when there is all the slack in the system.
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Old 06-01-2013, 03:16 PM
aarracer aarracer is offline
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As these engines have no cam bearings. A bad/worn block or cam journal could be your issue.
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  #3  
Old 06-01-2013, 03:46 PM
78RedExpress 78RedExpress is offline
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letting the cam move far enough that it was affecting a lifter ? only one lifter?

thanks for that information....didn't know that the cam journals just run against the block in a V-10
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  #4  
Old 06-01-2013, 07:55 PM
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I had a sticking lifter on one of my 318's. I replaced 1 qt of oil with diesel fuel. Let that go for the entire oil change. Hasn't made a noise since.
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Old 06-01-2013, 09:15 PM
78RedExpress 78RedExpress is offline
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can anyone else vouch for that therapy ???

put a container of this stuff for valves and lifters in crankcase from autoparts store today....its mineral spirits and mostly Xylene which is a component of paint thinner and xylene is also used in gasoline to raise octane since lead is no longer used.

in the mornin I'll know if that container of stuff helped and if it didn't then I'll change oil to the 10W - 30W. If that doesn't work I'm game for about any other solution cuz I'm not tearin that motor down.

If I try the diesel fuel I'll make sure that I do it at the gas station and I'll tell some onlooker to watch as I put the gasoline pump nozzle in my oil filler hole and start pumping

JVMOPAR: how long you leave that quart of diesel in there? as I know it can't be real good for bearings.
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  #6  
Old 06-02-2013, 04:02 AM
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I've used ATF, Marvel Mystery Oil, Diesel and SeaFoam both before (50 too 100 miles) and again right after changing oil. Diesel and SeaFoam seems to work best. Here is a link for how to use SeaFoam.

http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/how...right-way.html
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Old 06-02-2013, 09:57 AM
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Diesel fuel is a light oil, that amount won't hurt your bearings. If your using a flat tappet cam I'd use a quality oil like Brad Penn racing oil. If it's a roller cam use what ever you want.

In fact old caterpillar service manuals say to flush the crankcase by draining and filling with fuel then running the engine with no load for a while. Then drain again. Also used to flush transmissions and final drives.

The early Duramax engines had problems with injectors cracking and pouring fuel into the crankcase. Had ones come in with enough fuel in the crankcase to be pouring out the draft tube. They hold 2.5 gallons of oil and probably had 5 gallons of fuel in there too. Most likely was all fuel by the time I got it. Drove it in the shop and drove it out never had a problem. Did quite a few of them like that.

I leave it in for 3000 miles.
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Old 06-02-2013, 03:06 PM
78RedExpress 78RedExpress is offline
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Went out this mornin and cranked her after sittin overnight . Very light lifter sound for maybe one second and then completely normal....most wouldn't even notice over the sound of the engine starting. So, I imagine running that Valve-Kleen oil Treatment valve & Lifter cleaner for 45 min yesterday has made all this improvement.

Here's the question: Does this mean that the mechanism of the problem was that the liter wasn't pumping up at all yesterday and before because the little oil orifice in the side of the hydraulic lifter that lines up with the oil gallery in the lifter bores was almost completely shut with grime and this additive opened it up?????? the noise before was loud( way louder sounding than a normal lifter sound from traditional 1960s,70s,80s V-8s we've all heard over the years. From my experience it sounded to me like there was like 400 hundred thousands or so valve tappet clearance yesterday and the day before before the engine warmed up enough that the oil could get through the hole and pump the lifter up. Yesteray, on startup for first 20 seconds or so that affected cylinder was completely out and the engine was stumbling....if she'd been a V-8 (1/8 of the engine missing instead of only 1/10) I think it woulda died while cold on idle. If I run this stuff awhile longer and maybe drain out a quart of oil and replace with a quart of diesel and run somemore before changing to the 10w - 30W oil does that mean this engine would likely have a normal life and longevity(another 100K miles) without needing a teardown ....or youall think somethin is permanantly damaged ??? In other words is my fix temporary ?
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  #9  
Old 06-02-2013, 04:48 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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Varnish buildup is the most common cause of lifter noise, anything that has a solvent effect will clean away the varnish buildup and restore correct operation.
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  #10  
Old 06-02-2013, 04:52 PM
John Kunkel John Kunkel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aarracer View Post
As these engines have no cam bearings. A bad/worn block or cam journal could be your issue.
You're thinking of the aluminum block Viper V-10, the truck V-10 is iron block with traditional cam bearings.
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  #11  
Old 06-02-2013, 09:18 PM
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Who knows why the lifter wouldn't pump up. Could be that hole was plugged, or the plunger was stuck inside the lifter, can't really be certain on that one.

The 318 of mine that had a sticking lifter was really bad and but really intermittent. It would happen maybe once a month and it would clack for up to 30 minutes (my commute to work is that long and sometimes it would clack all the way home). After running that diesel in there it has never done it again. That was 2 or 3 years ago.

Not saying it's going to cure it 100 percent of the time with every engine out there, but a quart of diesel is what about a dollar. And one lifter is around $100 plus gaskets and labor. I think you get the picture.
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  #12  
Old 06-03-2013, 12:53 PM
78RedExpress 78RedExpress is offline
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JV mopar: What is your thesis of why diesel works to fix the lifter?? If it was varnish buildup in the hole that the oil goes through to pump up the lifter then does diesel act as a solvent and dissolve away the varnish. Or if its just the plunger stuck on the lifter does the diesel being a lighter oil get in to the plunger better than the motor oil does???

In my situation I can tell that the plunger was starting out all the way retracted with a huge clacking noise in the valvetrain of that cylinder and then as the engine gradually warms up the oil pressure pumps up the plunger very gradually and you hear the clacking noise gradually over minutes(starting to get better after about 3 minutes of operating time) get incrementally better and better to where its completely normal after about 7 minutes. Reveing motor above idle in attempt to raise oil pressure during that period does nothin to speed up the process.

Wonder why the instant e-mail notification subscription isn't workin for me on this thread.
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  #13  
Old 06-03-2013, 09:46 PM
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Diesel works pretty good as parts washer too, but it leaves everything oily when your done. Gas works real good for a parts washer and dries too, but it's dangerous.

Diesel pumps and injectors are pretty sensitive to dirt or buildups. So either the way the fuel is mixed with additives or just the nature of diesel itself.

You know piston pins can lock in the piston and make it slap causing a noise that sounds just like a lifter clacking. And it will go away after it warms up. I've got a 2.5L that does that gets quite loud too and last for a while. If I run it for a while like 5 minutes, shut it off for 10 minutes or so the noise is completely gone. So once the pistons heat up and expand a bit the piston is free to swing on the rod and the noise is gone. I've had no luck trying to get rid of that noise. When it gets bad I will tear it down and rebuild it, but till then I will live with the noise.

It's a tricky noise to isolate.
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  #14  
Old 06-13-2013, 07:53 PM
Shatto Shatto is offline
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Because they work:

First, find out if you have an internal problem;
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...ysis-services/
You'll survive a week for the results and you'll know if there are unusual amounts of metal, telling you where to look.

I replaced a camshaft, couldn't pass smog, and discovered the heat treated cam lobes last around 350k even using synthetic oil. You also could have something that simply wared out.

1. Use Amsoil Engine and Transmission Flush.
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...mission-flush/

2. The recommended Amsoil motor oil:
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...-oil/gasoline/


As was said, you could have a mechanical problem. There are tricks but if something is mechanically wrong it will only do one thing, and you know what it is.
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  #15  
Old 09-09-2013, 11:17 PM
78RedExpress 78RedExpress is offline
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had changed back to the recommended 10W-20W oil from the straight 30 I had in it when the problem began a couple months ago.....and didn't have the problem for about 300 miles.

This weekend drove it over to Port Orange, FL where I bought an old 2300 pound verticle mill and hauled it in the bed.....on the way home suddenly I head the bells in the dash ring like when somethin's wrong with your gauges and looked down and the OIL PRESSURE IS ZERO for 10 seconds and then it comes right back up to above 40 ......did that 5 or six times in the next day . And now I'm having the very loud clanging lifter/valvetrain sound again on each warmup. Happened tonight just 2 hours after it had been ran earlier.

Why does haines manual say I can't buy new lifters and drop them in on top of the ole cam with 105 K miles on it ???????? The new rollers won't break in? Also the manual says that the heads both have to come off to get the "four corner lifters" lifted up outta the block . I'm not taking the heads off. On start up tonight I quick ran around to front of truck to see if puttin my hands on valve covers could sense which side of the engine the sticking lifter is on (This is a loud clanging until it gets itself pumped up ) Couldn't tell which side it was on.

So I've tried valve lifter cleaner from auto parts store, Seafoam 1 bottle in the crankcase, and the poster aboves therapy of diesel fuel . Then switched to correct weight of oil after running the ole oil for awhile with those additives.

Manual wants a new cam if I'm puttin in new lifters which means radiator, condensor and the heads have to come off.

Swell truck otherwise, 105K miles, ordered it new in 98, put new ball joints on it, new steering motor, redid all brakes and adjusted all axle bearings recently, and put new dash cover on .

Any ideas????

I'd just run it this way except that it sounds like there's about 300 hundred thousands of clearance in the valvetrain on that lifter when it's not pumped up and you can just tell it's pounding the daylights outta that lifter seat and pushrod ....really can't belive that it doesn't dislocate itself.....this is WAY louder than the typical V-8 clicking lifter sound we've all been familiar with all our lives.

Robert
Central Florida
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  #16  
Old 09-09-2013, 11:25 PM
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The reason the cam has to be changed when lifters are replaced is that the mating faces of cam lobes and lifters develop a unique wear pattern. Putting a new lifter on a settled cam lobe will usually cause premature wear and failure. In fact, most manuals will tell you if you remove the lifters for any reason and intend to use them again on the existing cam, separate and identify them so they can go back in the same hole. If not, things will wear out pretty quick.
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:43 PM
Rich Kinsley Rich Kinsley is offline
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I had a '90 Dakota 318 that had a lifter noise on start up one morning. I put in a can of NAPA Valve tune additive and the noise stopped immediately and never returned.
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Old 09-10-2013, 02:00 PM
Rich Kinsley Rich Kinsley is offline
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For some reason i didn't see all the posts when I sent my last one. I doubt that the additive will help in this scenario.

I know lifters need to go back into the same place on a cam but I always heard the roller lifters didn't need any break in. I was of the impression you could replace them as needed without issues? I would probably go ahead and replace the bad lifter, if I could find it, and see how it goes. If it takes a dump you're just back where you were before.
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Old 09-10-2013, 02:34 PM
78RedExpress 78RedExpress is offline
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Rich, that is what I was thinking , yank the intake manifold and leave the heads, radiator, A/C condensor on it and then see if I can get lucky and be able to identify one of the 16 inside lifters as being the culprit. In the past I would have never thought of replacing only one of a set in a situation like this but sounds like I would just be increasing the odds of future trouble the more of them I replace . Manual says its unlikely to find any trouble on the side walls of the lifters(they must have alot of surface area rubbing the lifter bores) so maybe I might find somethin else with the one of the 16 lifters that's not one of the four "corner lifters" that you can't remove without taking the heads off . Maybe I would find one with the oil hole mostly varnished shut or something.

Those several 10 second episodes recently of suddenly NO oil pressure registering on the gauge, only to resolve completely a few seconds later is what's got me baffled. Isn't the signal to that gauge just a electrical dashpot or transducer somewhere on the side of the block???? maybe it's periodically malfunctioning .

Thanks for the input
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Old 09-10-2013, 08:34 PM
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I would suggest hooking up an analog oil pressure gauge, I think it's important to know what the true oil pressure is. Low oil pressure could cause lifter noise. And this might be a pressure problem. Was the straight 30wt oil you were using a detergent oil?
One way to locate a noisy lifter is to remove the valve covers and start it up. It will throw oil all over the place, but using a stethoscope and/or a drift you can find the bad guy. Generally impossible to tell a lifter is bad by looking at it.
Yes, you can change roller lifters without changing the cam. A roller cam doesn't develop a pattern. And you can change a roller cam without changing the lifters. You can, btw, change flat tappet lifters without changing the cam, but you can't change a flat tappet cam without new lifters.
Diesel fuel works as a cleaner because of its high kerosene content, great solvent. It doesn't blend all that well with motor oil, so it might not be wise to run it too long. Better to use stuff stated to do the job, safer.
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:23 AM
Rich Kinsley Rich Kinsley is offline
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You may be able to see a collapsed lifter visually. I just installed a cam and hyd lifters and one of the new ones would not compress out of the box. If one is stuck in the collapsed position you can probably see the difference from the others.
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Old 09-13-2013, 03:18 PM
chirorod chirorod is offline
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Maybe, but I replaced a zillion sets in the 60's and 70's and the bad ones all looked the same as the good ones.
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  #23  
Old 08-28-2018, 10:49 PM
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over 5 years later now and 15,000 more miles. Seems the further and further I get from that straight 30 weight oil and with each additional oil change that the lifter sticking problem happens less often. More common now for me to hear like a gentle connecting rod knock for a second and a half as the oil pressure builds up on start up.
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