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  #1  
Old 05-04-2000, 09:09 PM
ChristianCuda ChristianCuda is offline
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Guys and Gals I want to know what everyone has against the front wheel drives?

I have both and there a lot of times I would prefer the Front wheel drive because it handles a heck of a lot better than and rear wheel drive. Especially when pulling through a corner.

And dont ever tell me that they dont have power cause when the 318 in our 84 Dodge 250 3/4 ton van threw a rod I towed it home with my 91 Dodge Shadow 2.2 5 speed 50 miles at 50-60 miles an hour average.

Dont get me wrong I love my 68 cuda 383 it can out accelerate any of my front wheel drives but it wont take some of these corners around here at 45 like my Neon does.

Now granted I have only had stick cars in front wheel drives and if I had an auto it probably wouldnt have pulled that van like the 5 speed did. I love my front wheel drive besides donuts in the snow or a lot more controlable and fun in a front wheel drive.

well thats my rant for the day.

Christian

------------------
68 'Cuda 383 Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360
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  #2  
Old 05-05-2000, 12:44 AM
JMolloy JMolloy is offline
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FWD was initiated to make a car more easily manufactureable (cheaper to build). Also, due to the smaller drive train area, it's easy to make a gas sipper out of it. Fewer parasitic losses too. From a handling standpoint I would have to disagree. Every FWD car I driven (which unfortunately has been quite a few) suffers from chronic torque steer, and the dynamics of the handling in a corner is poor (ALL the weight up front).

What happens if you lose it in a corner, and you turn away from the corner to straighten the car out on a FWD car? It gets ugly fast.

Lastly, if FWD was the way to go, all the F1 cars in Europe would be FWD, as would the prototype IMSA racers, not to mention all the Euro superbuck cars (Ferrari, Lambo, and Porsche). Porsche to a lesser degree suffers from a similar weight bias issue (having ALL the drivetrain confined to one end of the car), but at least it DOESN"T STEER WITH THE DRIVEN WHEELS.

Well, time to get in the Geo Prizm and go get some beer...

Molloy
69 Charger 440
71 RRunner 440
95 RAM 360 4x4 SWB
90 Geo Prizm 2.0 (wife's)
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  #3  
Old 05-05-2000, 05:35 PM
Gary Gary is offline
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I've had several front wheel drive Mopars, and have no complaints about any of them. I now have a 300M with the performance handling package, and I'll put it up against any production car on a

That said, I much prefer to drive my '99 Dakota. It's more fun to drive, has equal power and I prefer the feel of the rear wheels driving the car. The 318 also sounds much better than the V6, and I'm surprised how comforting the rhythmic sound of a V8 is over a V6. The 300M gets about 7mpg more than the Dakota, so there is something to be said for FWD economy v. performance. If I still lived in snow country, the car of choice would be FWD, but for now, I won't buy another one. There are too many tradeoffs of the things I love about cars.
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  #4  
Old 05-05-2000, 08:42 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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The critical thing to look at is tire loading when comparing front and rear wheel drive cars. You have a fixed amount of force that a tire can generate. If you are trying to steer and put on power with the same tires, you have to sacrifice a bit of cornering force to get drive force. Rear drives split up the drive and cornering forces.

That said, I agree that most newer front drives will outcorner most older rear wheel drives, but it has more to do with improved technology than configuration, and also that it takes more driver skill to take a rear drive to the max without crashing. As was said earlier, nearly all ultra performance and race cars are rear drive because it gives them an edge (and they are more fun/scary). E.G. Viper, BMW, Porsch, Ferrari, Jaguar.
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  #5  
Old 05-10-2000, 03:38 AM
Fly-N-Box Fly-N-Box is offline
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Question

Originally posted by Gary:
I've had several front wheel drive Mopars, and have no complaints about any of them. I now have a 300M with the performance handling package, and I'll put it up against any production car on a
---------------------------------------

Hey Gary ... Please finish that last sentence! Am curious as to what you were going to say.
TIA


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  #6  
Old 05-10-2000, 04:42 AM
Gary Gary is offline
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For some reason the line was deleted. I had written "handling course". Now don't try and sneak your Omni into the "production" category! I used to live in Seattle and I've seen you run at SIR, and talked to you several times. Love your car, but stock it ain't!

Matter of fact, I have a photo of your license plate in my photo album.
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  #7  
Old 05-11-2000, 01:56 AM
Thunderstruck Thunderstruck is offline
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I have 5 cars, all Mopars too. Three RWD and two FWD. One of the RWD's is a project car I have never driven.

Of the remaining I suspect my 96 Neon and my 65 Cuda are closest in size, weight and abilities. My other two are an 87 Diplomat and an 89 Voyager.

Comparing the Neon to the Cuda is hard to do. One's bonestock (Neon) the other's modified considerably. As it stands the Cuda would probably win everything but economy against the Neon. But the Neon is probably smoother than the Cuda. The Cuda is funner when you feel the urge to hang it out. If I had to pick one I'd probably go with the Cuda due to rarity more than anything else.

As for handling, well, the Cuda isn't stock or even close to it any more and can hang with whatever I choose to hang with. It's a pretty well balanced car all around and nothing beats kicking the tail around with the throttle. The wife flips when I ebrake her Neon's ass around so I don't do that anymore, with her in the car. My only complaint in regards to Mopar FWD cars are thier lack of durability under my foot.

Steve
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  #8  
Old 06-21-2000, 04:18 PM
GUAM SS/T GUAM SS/T is offline
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I really don't feel that front wheel drives handle better. The biggest difference is in low speed cornering. Frontwheel drives are always tight in the turns (front end slides) This is especialy true when you are in a very tight turn and are trying to accelerate out. I owned a 91Eagle Talon TSi All wheel drive and it felt weak in a sharp turn. The front end would walk due to the weight distribution and all the force on the front tires. Granted, the car handled great but even in a car with its handling abilities the front wheel slip was very evident. My 4400lb SS/T actually handles better than the front wheelers I've driven and is very even in the turns, It usually tries to drift all 4 wheels on its own. I also have more control of the drift with rear wheel drive. But, in a foot of snow I'd ask for my Talon in a heartbeat, I'd rather have a 4x4 ram though.
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  #9  
Old 06-21-2000, 07:20 PM
Maxwedge Maxwedge is offline
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I disagree with you on the fact that trucks corner better than front drive cars. I dont know of any trucks that can do a cloverlief at 80-85..I can do it in my friends stock eagle talon without a worry...but maybe Im wrong I havent driven any trucks at that speed on a clovelief..
Maxwedge
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  #10  
Old 06-21-2000, 08:35 PM
GUAM SS/T GUAM SS/T is offline
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I said at low speed the Talon drifted. At higher speeds where less steering is required for the same G-force the drift starts to diminish. I'd have to see the cloverleaf to know if I could take it at 80-85 in my truck. The SS/T handles much better than your average truck in the first place though. The main point of what I am saying is that I am more comfortable with the handling of rear wheel drive instead of front wheel drive. And I am not saying that trucks outhandle front wheel drive cars, I am saying that rearwheel drive on a car handles better than a front wheel drive, atleast for my driving style.
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  #11  
Old 06-22-2000, 06:16 AM
brun064 brun064 is offline
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Of course most RWD cars will out handle most FWD cars because RWD cars are usually wider with wider wheels. If your comparing a truck to a neon or a cuda to K-car your not quite giving FWD its due. I have a '94 concorde and it will out handle a Mustang GT with nearly the same size tires and wheel base width. In my opinion FWD can power through corners better than RWD becuase power is being deliverd to the wheels pointing where you want to go. If you gas it through a tight corner on a RWD it tends to hop...atleast on stock applications.
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  #12  
Old 06-22-2000, 07:35 AM
GUAM SS/T GUAM SS/T is offline
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I'm sorry, but if front wheel drive was better for handling then most sports cars would be front wheel drive. Rear wheel drives distribute the weight of the car more evenly due to the fact that the tranny,driveshaft,and differential are behind the front wheels, not on them. The Ideal setup would be a mid engined allwheel drive like on some of the Indy cars of the 60s. As far as powering out of the turns, most front wheel drives don't make all that much power. If they are powerful, stomping the gas to power out of the turn makes the front end shoot out of the turn, not into it. That is from personal experience, not guesswork.
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  #13  
Old 06-22-2000, 04:48 PM
brun064 brun064 is offline
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Not all that much power? The Cadillac Seville STS has about 300 HP. The 300M has 250, the new maxima has about 240. Thats more power than 6 cyl. mustangs and camaros and almost more than most mustangs with V8s. FWD cars have more control around hard corners than RWD cars because most RWD cars will whip the tail around to make the corner.
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  #14  
Old 06-22-2000, 05:50 PM
ChristianCuda ChristianCuda is offline
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Thumbs up

All cars will whip the rear end around a corner no matter whether they are front, rear, or all wheel drive. I also would prefer an all-wheel drive. Where the front wheel drive has an advantage is that whent he rear slides around a corner the front DRIVE Wheels can pull the car through and straighten it out. A rear wheel drive with the rear sliding around a corner will not be able to because the rear wheels are sliding and when sliding cant pur power to the ground. On a rear wheel drive stepping on the gas through a corner provides less traction because they are sliding where on a front wheel drive the rears are sliding and the fronts pulling.

A front wheel drive when given gas will not go straight through a corner. They will in fact turn tight becasue the power will be applied in the direction in which the wheels are turn and in such the direction you want to go.

A Rear wheel drive has to push through a corner and the rear wheels (unless you have rear steer which no production trucks have) are pointed straight through a corner and slide around it.

During acceleration a rear wheel drive is better due to the weight is put over the drive wheels.

During cornering the front wheel drive is better due to the drive wheels not sliding in the corner.

All said and done a all-wheel drive vehicle has the best of both worlds and is the ultimate choice.

Christian


------------------
68 'Cuda 383 Formula S recreation
Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360
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  #15  
Old 06-22-2000, 08:57 PM
Molloy Molloy is offline
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Go get a FWD car and break the rear end loose in a corner. Then to correct it, you turn in the direction of the slide right? Wrong, not in a FWD car. You'll end up driving in the direction of the slide. Also consider the weight balance of a FWD vehicle. The whole drivetrain is up front. It's almost as bad as the 911 where everthing is behind the rear axle, except it's the polar opposite. BTW the 911 is totally outclassed these days. Lastly, you should never NEVER steer with the driven wheels. Look at prototype racers in IMSA, CART, and F1. All mid engine, RWD. Sorry, but FWD was born from a cost saving initiative. It's just cheaper to build 'em. If you look, you can find a few merits for FWD, but overall RWD is the way to go for performance.

Or like Christian said, AWD is the ultimate. I'm waiting on the AWD Hemi Cherokee.
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  #16  
Old 06-22-2000, 11:53 PM
Maxwedge Maxwedge is offline
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Everyone has good points on the front drive vs rear drive thing. The reason in my mind(read opinion) that sportscars dont use the front drive is the fact that in most front drive set ups they are only single track units. You are also a little more limited in tire size.
all things being even, aka on the street, I feel that the front wheel drive cars are much more "Nimble" or are able to move back and fourth quicker than the rear drive cars. this may be due to weight or drive trane..I dont know. But I have driven 1 new trans am and several 80s camareos and firebirds/mustangs. the Front Drive Daytonas and ford probs I have driven were much more responsive and agile. The eagle talon that I have drive was a awd turbo model and I NEVER felt it drift at any time. Maybe what I or Guam had experience with were things only that car does.. Havent driven bu one talon, can say they all drive the same. I do know that my friends rear wheels had some toe out. that tends to cause understeer so maybe that was the "cause" of the complete stability the car has...I dont know for sure so I cant say Guam is 100% or even 50% wrong...
From my experience the rear drive cars are easier to get back into control after they get out of control. They are a little more predictable if given time to correct the errors. I will hand that advantage to them on that point.
Maxwedge
main point in my mind
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  #17  
Old 06-23-2000, 06:54 AM
brun064 brun064 is offline
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FWD was not made as a cheaper alternative. The first FWD car was a cadillac- the epitome of value right? It was made for safety. And of course RWD is better for performance, but that doesn't mean any RWD car is better than all FWD cars. The only problem with all of this heresey and conjecture is that there isn't a major production car available in FWD and RWD with all the same performance options so its hard to get a real comparison.
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  #18  
Old 06-23-2000, 02:33 PM
ChristianCuda ChristianCuda is offline
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Brun is right no exact same car with same engine trans design and weight available in RWD and FWD. Anybody want to try this? Cliff Sebring at one time I thought was going to do a Rear engine RWD Neon. Cliff did you ever get that project rolling? If so there may be a slight comparison although a front engine rear wheel drive would be a better one. And you can compare a small block converted daytona versus the 2.2 FWD daytona either not the same engine/trans design. We would like to make the weight as close as possible to the same and not change any characteristics including ride height.


Everything I know is from my own learing about both rear wheel drive cars and Front wheel drive cars ine the last 12 years of working and driving them.
In a snow and iced road a FWD will tend to fair better than a RWD because it pulls instead of pushes.
If you are in a muddy area a RWD will have a harder time going foward through the mud. Where a FWD will pull through alot easier forward and will have a harder time backing up through the mud, when the rear wheel drive will pull out of the mud easier going backwards.
Think about this in a physics point of view. Try pushing a block through mud it tends to sink worse because the front edge is catching on the soft ground and digging in. Try pulling because you the back edge just slides along there is no real grip the rear of the block has in the mud.
A car is the same thing I know you are going to say that the car has round wheels but they still will sink and catch in the mud when pushed where when pulled will be the driving force using that friction to move teh vehicle.
Why do you think 4-Wheel Drives where made? Because Rear wheel drive was not good enough for traction in these situations. Why are all Monster Trucks 4 wheel drive? Becuase rear wheel drive wasnt good enough and those trucks are now rear steer and all wheel steer so steering with the main drive wheels. Steering with the drive wheels makes sense because then the wheels are pointed in the direction you want to go instead of the direction the are facing whatever direction that may be.
Steering with the drive wheels makes driving out of a spin easier.
Granted if you know what you are doing you can work a RWD any which way and not mess anything up but most of the people on the road today are not experienced drivers and do not know how to properly control a vehicle so the front wheel drive makes it easier for them to better handle those vehicles. If you are an experienced driver a FWD will still provide the same benefits. The rear wheel drive takes some knowledge, skill, and experience to come out of a major spin and still have control. The front wheel drive does not.
Now another point is this that most people these days cant even control the front wheel drives and/or think they are invincible because of their better handling so they can do all kinds of feats which makes things worse. The biggest reason most of us still prefer a RWD is because we know how to drive and handle it.

Oh and one more thing the FWD cars have better traction because more weight is over the drive wheels namely the engine and trans.

Christian

------------------
68 'Cuda 383 Formula S recreation
Working on adding EFI
69 'Cuda Race Parts Car
76 Duster 273 recent transplant
95 Neon 2.0 SOHC best of 16.96
84 Dodge Ram D50 transplanting 360
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  #19  
Old 06-23-2000, 05:48 PM
attsr attsr is offline
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There's nothing wrong with the front-drive cars, Christian. I've owned several of both rear and front drive cars and while the handling characteristics are different, the average driver will never know the difference. If anything, they will probably notice the increased traction capabilities of the front-drive in light snow. I think the very best configuration for handling and traction though, by far, is all (or four) wheel drive. As for "fun-to-drive" cars, I believe they can come in all styles; my favorites have come in front-drive ('85 Dodge Lancer ES Turbo), rear-drive ('69 Dodge Super Bee 383 Magnum), and four-wheel-drive (Jeep CJ5).
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  #20  
Old 06-23-2000, 10:01 PM
hemi-1 hemi-1 is offline
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Cadillac was not the first front wheel drive car. Cord was front wheel drive back in 1929, and I doubt it was the first.

Front wheel drive is better in snow and mud because all the weight is on the driving wheels. Doesn't mean it handles better. Front drive cars are too nose heavy for good dry road handling, and the front tires are overloaded (have to handle steering and power transmission forces) while the rears are underloaded. Front drive can work OK in a light car with a light motor and not a whole lot of power (like a Neon), but not on a true high performance car. That's why except for Cadillac (another one of GM's good ideas), big motor hi-po sedans are invariably rear wheel drive.

As for being "nimble," yeah a 2500 pound front driver is probably more nimble than a 3500 pound rear driver. At the same weight, though, a rear drive is more balanced, more nimble, and understeers less.
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  #21  
Old 06-28-2000, 10:05 PM
DonHoward DonHoward is offline
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FWD is more popular with the average person simply because their inherent instability cornering it to understeer. And to correct from understeer you lift off the throttle. Most people can handle that instinctively.

I have a quick little FWD, my Neon R/T. I have modded the suspension a little bit and added a custom limited slip diff. Makes it drive like no other FWD I have ever seen. I can throttle oversteer the car - which is rare for FWD. And contrary to what Molloy said it does not matter whether a car is FWD or RWD when it is oversteering - you respond to it and correct the same. I learned that at a Car Guys school at Summit Point, and I have seen it first hand in my Neon and also in my older RWD cars.

I prefer RWD, but I find nothing wrong with FWD. It is just a different way of moving the car, that is all.

Here, Mopar Muscle summed it up the best in this pic:





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My Home Page, Check It Out
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  #22  
Old 06-30-2000, 07:40 PM
Molloy Molloy is offline
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I stand corrected. My experience with FWD at the ragged edge of handling is with a few rentals -- not skilled with it. With a skilled driver (professional lessons), perhaps recovering in a slide is the same as with RWD. From what you say, and definately from the pict, your FWD kicks arse. I still prefer RWD however and whenever possible, and I still maintain that the the driven wheels shouldn't be the turning wheels, but if I had to have a FWD car, it would be just like yours!
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  #23  
Old 07-03-2000, 01:39 PM
roodypoo roodypoo is offline
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well i was told by some guys from mopar performance that chrysler lost most of its good enigineers in the early 80's because most of them fcelt that a wheel was meant to do one of two things and not both, either propell or turn, and i think that they are right you get on an ice covered road or even a gravel or dirt road for that matter and turn the wheels then floor it and what happens in front wheel drive? you go straight. nothing against them i just don't particularly like front wheel drive.
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  #24  
Old 07-09-2000, 03:31 AM
moparjack moparjack is offline
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When I think of FWD I think of a car that was cheaply made. For drag racing RWD will always have an advantage in traction. For any other kind of driving, particularly in a sports car, I would never trust a car that is designed in such a way that the front breaks loose before the rear. It is a recipe for disaster. None of the great sports cars are designed that way for a very good reason.

With regard to some of the uneducated public prefering it, it is more a question of them being brainwashed by the auto industry. FWD cars cost less to produce and have fewer parasitic losses. As a result the car companies can meet the gas mileage standards and they make more profit.
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