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  #1  
Old 12-27-2001, 02:44 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Default Typical Oiling Modifications

Early in November, I posted that we were building a SB for a friend to use in limited late model at the local track. To review, this is a 362" engine, W2 headed, non ported head, flat top piston, flat tappet camshaft. We think the engine will have to turn 8000 frequently(because of competition) so we have pretty much done everything we think necessary to live in that kind of environment. The oiling system is wet sump(because of cost). In this class, dry sump oiling systems are legal.

The modifications are fairly straight forward and can be accomplished with some extra long drill bits, rotary files and a lot of patience and care. I must admit, being an old geezer, and owning a Bridgeport, I did a lot of my work in the mill using the power feed to bore the holes. But, you can do the same thing using a hand drill.

Oiling Philosophy- My belief is all an oiling system must do is oil the rod bearings properly at max RPM. The trick is to get an adequate supply of oil to all the rod bearings. In order to do this you must start at the very beginning-the oil pickup.

For this engine we chose a Canton oil pan and pickup. The pan looked real good and at first look the pickup did too but closer inspection of the pickup reveiled some problems. The pickup tube is 3/4" OD and 5/8" ID. That's good but where they welded the pickup tube to the base, the weld flowed through the tube and closed the ID down to 1/2" in places. That's too small. We ground the excess weld away inside the tube to make the opening 5/8"
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Old 12-27-2001, 03:01 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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To backtrack a little, when we got all our parts together and started measuring we found most of the oiling passages in the pump and block were .400" to .420" in diameter. This is OK for a lower RPM engine but for our application we felt the passages must be enlarged to insure oiling. After looking closely at everything we decided .500" minimum passages were possible. How much is that extra diameter worth, about 40% more flow. That's a bunch!.

We wanted the pickup tube to be larger, 5/8" because that's the suction side and that large a intake is necessary to feed a 1/2" line under pressure.

Next we looked at the pump, it is a Mellings High volume. The oiling passage is .420" out of the box. We enlarged this to .500". Be very careful when drilling by hand it's easy to get off and hang the drill bit(hard on the wrist). Try to do this in a drill press if possible. After the hole is enlarged, carefully blend the opening in the pump to the hole. Oil doesn't like to flow around sharp corners and a little blending eliminates any oil flow turbulence inside the pump.

When we bolted the pump to the rear main cap, we got a surprise-the two oil passages didn't meet at all! Look at the photo of the rear main cap to see how much we had to slot the cap to make the passages meet!
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  #3  
Old 11-04-2012, 03:31 PM
dirtmopar44 dirtmopar44 is offline
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Originally Posted by sanborn View Post
To backtrack a little, when we got all our parts together and started measuring we found most of the oiling passages in the pump and block were .400" to .420" in diameter. This is OK for a lower RPM engine but for our application we felt the passages must be enlarged to insure oiling. After looking closely at everything we decided .500" minimum passages were possible. How much is that extra diameter worth, about 40% more flow. That's a bunch!.

We wanted the pickup tube to be larger, 5/8" because that's the suction side and that large a intake is necessary to feed a 1/2" line under pressure.

Next we looked at the pump, it is a Mellings High volume. The oiling passage is .420" out of the box. We enlarged this to .500". Be very careful when drilling by hand it's easy to get off and hang the drill bit(hard on the wrist). Try to do this in a drill press if possible. After the hole is enlarged, carefully blend the opening in the pump to the hole. Oil doesn't like to flow around sharp corners and a little blending eliminates any oil flow turbulence inside the pump. Make sure the main cap is drilled to 1/2in and it matches the hole in the block

When we bolted the pump to the rear main cap, we got a surprise-the two oil passages didn't meet at all! Look at the photo of the rear main cap to see how much we had to slot the cap to make the passages meet!
For Kevco stock location pan I tap the oil pump to 1/2npt and make a new tube and pick up from 1/2 pipe (.840ID) I also make new screen from 1x2rectangular tube 4in long. Best way to bend the 1/2 pipe if you dont have a bender is pack it with sand.cap off both ends,heat and bend to match old 3/8 pipe pick-up.
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File Type: jpg OIL MODS 001.jpg (34.7 KB, 123 views)
File Type: jpg OIL MODS 002.jpg (20.3 KB, 114 views)
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  #4  
Old 12-27-2001, 03:20 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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I neglected to add, we also drilled the passage in the rear cap to 1/2" as well. The larger hole in the rear cap matched to the vertical oiling hole in the block very nicely. That vertical hole intersects with a hortizontal hole that carries the oil out to the oil filter area. We drilled this hole out as well to 1/2". We then tapped the hole 3/8" NPT for a fitting to be attached to carry the oil to a remote filter(I will explain why later). Where the vertical hole and hortizontal hole intersect, look very closely to see they meet properly, most don't. And, oil doesn't like to flow smoothly around sharp corners so we got a rotary file with a 1/2" round head and carefully rounded the intersection of the vertical and horizontal hole. That makes the oil flow more smoothly.

OK, we have enlarged the lower hortizontal hole in the block, tapped it 3/8" for a hose fitting. Now, we need to do the same for the upper hortizontal hole. Here we got a surprise! On this block, the hole wasn't drilled all the way through. It was less than 3/8" in diameter at the very end. We repeated the procedure, drill the passage to 1/2" and tap to 3/8" NPT. We couldn't round this intersection because it is so far inside the block. So we had to leave it alone.
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  #5  
Old 11-04-2012, 03:45 PM
dirtmopar44 dirtmopar44 is offline
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I neglected to add, we also drilled the passage in the rear cap to 1/2" as well. The larger hole in the rear cap matched to the vertical oiling hole in the block very nicely. That vertical hole intersects with a hortizontal hole that carries the oil out to the oil filter area. We drilled this hole out as well to 1/2". We then tapped the hole 3/8" NPT for a fitting to be attached to carry the oil to a remote filter(I will explain why later). Where the vertical hole and hortizontal hole intersect, look very closely to see they meet properly, most don't. And, oil doesn't like to flow smoothly around sharp corners so we got a rotary file with a 1/2" round head and carefully rounded the intersection of the vertical and horizontal hole. That makes the oil flow more smoothly.

OK, we have enlarged the lower hortizontal hole in the block, tapped it 3/8" for a hose fitting. Now, we need to do the same for the upper hortizontal hole. Here we got a surprise! On this block, the hole wasn't drilled all the way through. It was less than 3/8" in diameter at the very end. We repeated the procedure, drill the passage to 1/2" and tap to 3/8" NPT. We couldn't round this intersection because it is so far inside the block. So we had to leave it alone.
Here is what you need to modify block.
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File Type: jpg OIL MODS 004.jpg (104.7 KB, 129 views)
File Type: jpg OIL MODS 005.jpg (59.8 KB, 123 views)
File Type: jpg OIL MODS 1-22-12 005.jpg (30.7 KB, 126 views)
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  #6  
Old 12-27-2001, 03:36 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Excuse me, had to get a coffee refill!

Remember we said earlier that we fed the oil(#12 line) to a remote filter? At the filter we split the return to the block. One # 12 line goes back to the rear of the block AND a #8 feed line goes to the front of the block. "X" and "R" blocks have provisions to feed oil from both ends. And for high RPM applications we believe it is necessary.

Too many times we have seen front rod bearing failure at high RPMs. We believe it is due to oil starvation. The problem is partially solved with 48 degree "R" blocks but it is still a good idea. Here we drilled and tapped a 1/4" NPT hole for a #8 feed line. We could have made it larger but don't think it is necessary and the smaller line made it easier to get around the fuel pump.
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  #7  
Old 12-27-2001, 03:45 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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OK so you don't have an "X" or "R" block. What do you do? This next photo shows how you can accomplish the same thing with a standard block.

Drill a 7/16" hole and tap it for 1/4" NPT, run a steel line from that fitting to the back of the block. Drill a 3/4" hole in the back of the block right beside the oil pressure passage and directly below the intake surface. Install a #8 bulkhead fitting in the hole at the back of the block and connect it to the line coming from the front. Then connect to a remote filter and presto you feed the oil galley from both ends. Your bearings will thank you!
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  #8  
Old 12-27-2001, 04:02 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Next let's go to the main bearings. The passage from the main oiling galley(that's now fed from both ends) goes to the main bearings via a 1/4" drilled hole(some blocks are drilled 17/64"). We want to enlarge these holes to 9/32". Use a 12" long electricians drill and carefully drill from the main bearing area up to the main galley. This will do two things; enlarge the passage and ensure the holes are fully drilled. We have found holes not fully drilled many times. Some builders drill the front hole to 9/32" and the center three main bearing are drilled to 5/16". This is OK too. The passage in the rear main is large enough from the factory(5/16").

The next photo is very important! It shows how we modify the main bearings. We machine a slot in the mains approximately 1/2" in length and 1/4" in width. Why? The slot in the bearing now fits the slot in the block. And an oiling slot(versus a hole) in the bearing gives the rod bearing feed hole in the crankshaft more time to fully fill up with each revolution. For very high RPM engines(such as this) we enlarge the slot in the block to 5/8" in length and make the slot in the bearing the same length.
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  #9  
Old 11-04-2012, 04:00 PM
dirtmopar44 dirtmopar44 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanborn View Post
Next let's go to the main bearings. The passage from the main oiling galley(that's now fed from both ends) goes to the main bearings via a 1/4" drilled hole(some blocks are drilled 17/64"). We want to enlarge these holes to 9/32". Use a 12" long electricians drill and carefully drill from the main bearing area up to the main galley. This will do two things; enlarge the passage and ensure the holes are fully drilled. We have found holes not fully drilled many times. Some builders drill the front hole to 9/32" and the center three main bearing are drilled to 5/16". This is OK too. The passage in the rear main is large enough from the factory(5/16").

The next photo is very important! It shows how we modify the main bearings. We machine a slot in the mains approximately 1/2" in length and 1/4" in width. Why? The slot in the bearing now fits the slot in the block. And an oiling slot(versus a hole) in the bearing gives the rod bearing feed hole in the crankshaft more time to fully fill up with each revolution. For very high RPM engines(such as this) we enlarge the slot in the block to 5/8" in length and make the slot in the bearing the same length.
I also drill and tap 5/16 18 #1,2,3,4 oil holes that feed the cam bearings install 5/16 set screw with .100 hole drilled to restrict oil to cam bearings which adds even more oil to main and rod bearings
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File Type: jpg OIL MODS 006.jpg (71.2 KB, 116 views)
File Type: jpg OIL MODS 008.jpg (43.1 KB, 117 views)
File Type: jpg OIL MODS 007.jpg (19.5 KB, 120 views)
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  #10  
Old 11-05-2012, 12:01 PM
jg30911 jg30911 is offline
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Default thank you

hy thank you so much for the photos, i realy app. it, i run a ump dirt modifed,364ci,r3/w9 & it makes 728hp to the ground,497ft.lbs. tourque,real happy, real driveable,building a 367ci ritter block with p7 heads,later my freind,john, thanks again
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  #11  
Old 11-05-2012, 12:29 PM
dirtmopar44 dirtmopar44 is offline
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I have lots of pictures if anybody wants a just say what thay want and i will post Mike
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:44 PM
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I have lots of pictures if anybody wants a just say what thay want and i will post Mike
Do you do anything with the main galleys like bushing the lifter bores, tube & peen, or add a cross over tube?
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  #13  
Old 12-27-2001, 04:10 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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This engine is being built with Jesel rockers that feed oil to the rockers through the pushrods. So good , consistent oiling of rockers is essential. But we don't want to feed the left side oil passage from the front main bearing as a standard block does. So we block the passage that goes from the front main bearing up to the left side oil galley. We do this with a deep freeze plug in the left side oil galley to cover the hole.
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Old 12-27-2001, 04:16 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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We then feed the left side oil galley by drilling and tapping a 1/8" NPT hole in the front of the right side galley and drill and tap a 1/8" NPT hole in the center of the left side galley. We connect the two with a 3/16" steel line. This insures constant feed of oil to the left side without possible starvation of the front main.

You will note the aluminum block off plate over the cam opening. This is done to keep oil from being thrown up into the valley by the crank/camshaft.
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Old 01-19-2008, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
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We then feed the left side oil galley by drilling and tapping a 1/8" NPT hole in the front of the right side galley and drill and tap a 1/8" NPT hole in the center of the left side galley. We connect the two with a 3/16" steel line. This insures constant feed of oil to the left side without possible starvation of the front main.

You will note the aluminum block off plate over the cam opening. This is done to keep oil from being thrown up into the valley by the crank/camshaft.
Two questions.
First:
Sanborn. I understand the concept of the cross-over. But should there not be a plug in the drivers side oil gallery BEHIND the cross-over fitting, if lifter bore bushings were NOT used?

And secondly. Perhaps anyone can offer an answer to this..........
I want to add a 1/2" pickup to a typical Melling pump. Does anyone offer a package for this. That would be, drill and tap the side entrance for a centre-sump oil pan. Any tube and pickups available or do we fab? Any pictures out there?
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:51 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Sorry for the late response---I haven't been checking the site lately.

If I didn't say to double plug the left side galley when installing the crossfeed line---then I should have. If you don't double plug then you are at least partially defeating the purpose. Sorry!

For the second part of the question---I am not sure I understand the question. Are you trying to have two pickups? If so, you can use the standard pickup line and add a second with a bottom plate with a pickup in it. Keith Black did offer such a plate back years ago. Don't know if they still do but it shouldn't be hard to make!
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Old 12-27-2001, 04:22 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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That pretty well covers the subject. I'm sure I probably forgot something.

A lot of what we did is maybe overkill. But I would rather have too much oil at the rod bearings any time than not enough.

If you see something there you don't understand or don't agree with, let's talk about it.

Right now though, I think I have already turned into a pumpkin. I will be back in the morning, er, later in the morning.
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Old 10-01-2008, 10:33 PM
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uh im new to this but when you say ''all an oiling system needs to do is cover the rod bearings'' im sure you realize the importance of valve train lubrication versus parasitic loss not to mention numerous other problems created by not getting good oil up top in any pushrod motor running eight grand i ran a limited late model/ump sportsman in central il, for about 4 years to bad for me cost forced me to become a chvy guy of sorts but long story short my 358 on alky made real good power @ the 4700-6700 range so why the 8000 rpm seems harder to hook up come feature time parts price goes up and reliability goes down dont take this the wrong way i'm sure you know what your doing i just like talking cars getting different opinions and so on i love mopars but mopars on a dirt track are it if i ever get back into racing it wiil be duster/demon/aspen bodied street stock for sure
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Old 10-02-2008, 12:34 PM
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Wow, looks like a lot of activity on this post in the past two days---let me try to answer in order.

Jose, Use of the 90 degree adapter is OK PROVIDED you can keep the passages large enough. I just don't like to make the oil flow around any more corners than is necessary.

aholms, the main bearings are ONLY fed from the right side galley. The only purpose for the left side galley is to feed hydraulic lifters. Reread the article, I think you misunderstood. And, if you are using hydraulic lifters, will you be turning enough RPMs to warrant most of the modifications? Remember, the modifications were for engines running 7000-8000RPMs.

360mpiguy, there are a lot of different levels of racing. We race Super Late Model and on a lot of tracks/on a lot of nights can hook practically any kind of engine. Hook the engine hard enough to bog a 800+HP engine. And at our level of racing, we must turn whatever RPM that is necessary. If that means 8000+RPM, fine---if it means 9000RPM---so be it! We race against a lot of guys who make their living on the dirt tracks. We do our own engines, but most of our friendly competitors buy/lease their engines. And in the pits are lots of $30K+ engines every night. If you are going to get serious about racing a Mopar---then RPM is your friend---and you turn whatever is necessary. We race against World of Outlaws/ Lucas Oil type racers every week. Bloomquest, McDowell, Clanton, Arp, Clint Smith, Freddy Smith are all "local" guys to us! Remember, there are different level of racing!
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:48 AM
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I had received two e-mails since yesterday---one supportive of what I said, one very unhappy with my response basically not believing that dirt racing can be that difficult, expensive, etc.

Guys, I am not trying to "put anybody down" or be "elitist" or be a "rich SOB". I am just trying to explain the local conditions under which we race! Racing conditions very a lot around the country---and around here in Late Model or Super Late Model(as some call it)---competition is very tough.

There are a few(but not many) Mopar racers in Late Model. And we have probably been doing it longer than most anybody else. And in order to make a Late Model field of cars you must get all out of the engine you can! Most of our races have 30-60 cars trying to make a 24 car field---and .300 of a second can make the difference between making a field or not! I remember several years ago, we were at a Hav-A-Tampa race($20K to win). We qualified with a 14.30 on a half mile track---we thought we were in good shape to start well in the qualifying race. By the time qualifying was over, the pole was 13.99"---and we were 49th fastest! There were 88 cars trying to make the field! Those are the conditions we race under just about every night! If you don't race under those conditions---be thankful---but keep in mind that a lot of racers do!

That original post was written for a "Limited" Late Model engine. Around here the limiteds are about as cutthroat as the regular late models. High RPM is normal. And I was trying to help those that might be entering that arena.
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Old 10-03-2008, 04:14 PM
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Kind of off topic but a follow up to what Sanborn was talking about.

Limitted in the name of any class = spend double what you ought to have to for $200 to win

We run the cross over tube, drilled out oil galleries, return hose to pan from ps vc and a good pan on a 360 that turns 7000 all night long. Only one bearing failure and that was before we put the crossover tube in. But we are probably only making 350hp so there are many of the serious mods that we have not done.

Did put an oil temp guage in this year Sanborn, and were mildy surprised how low the oil temp was.
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Old 12-27-2001, 11:00 AM
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It's wonderful how a cup of coffee helps to charge ones batteries in the morning!

I know a lot of you get tired of some of us talking about "X" and "R" blocks at times. Most of you work with stock blocks only. I understand, did the same thing for many years. So for those of you that haven't even seen a "R" block, here is a photo of one of the first "R" blocks. There are several later versions but at least you can see what the 48 degree lifter bores look like.
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Old 12-27-2001, 11:09 AM
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The oiling system modifications described earlier are for typical limited engine oval track racing. If you get into really high RPM oval track racing,IE, Nascar Supertrucks, Super Late Model, etc. there are additional modifications to be done to the block, bearings and other components. Or if you use high vacuum dry sump systems there are other things to do.

We have also found several things to do to the cooling system to produce more consistent cooling throughout the RPM range.

Now that I have discovered a new toy(publishing photos on the net), I will probably bore you with all this stuff.

Got to get to work!
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Old 08-11-2010, 09:00 PM
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The oiling system modifications described earlier are for typical limited engine oval track racing. If you get into really high RPM oval track racing,IE, Nascar Supertrucks, Super Late Model, etc. there are additional modifications to be done to the block, bearings and other components. Or if you use high vacuum dry sump systems there are other things to do.

We have also found several things to do to the cooling system to produce more consistent cooling throughout the RPM range.

Now that I have discovered a new toy(publishing photos on the net), I will probably bore you with all this stuff.

Got to get to work!
i have a question...i am building a 360 for oval track. The class is a stock v8 class save for cam and chopping heads. What advice would you have for me to get around the tech guy and maximize the torque of this engine. I have a 77 block, will be running a .450 lift cam. I assume the heads are 72 cc because they are from 77 as well and the motor had a lean burn system. also, is it advisable to run new std. pistons in a used std. bore?
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Old 12-27-2001, 08:11 PM
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Thought all the mods were GREAT....we used some of these for our late model,few years back. Just a couple of thoughts , we made a stamped tin valley baffle to keep the oil from being flung by the camshaft.Was a lot of fun going around the oil lines that deverted the lifter oil . Now on your valley photo ,the valley drain back holes did you inlarge them or cover them to return the oil to the rear of the engine,by cam gear.. Also very good idea of painting the inside of block ,helps seal poris block (cast) and aids in drain back to oil pan where oil is needed....Thanks for the pics they are a great help to all of use here. JimmII
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Old 06-04-2007, 01:05 AM
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alot of good info here. very informative.

howard
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Old 06-26-2007, 08:54 PM
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Sanborn, I hope you are feeling better after your kidney stones. I sent you an e-mail to the address that you indicated. Have you had time to look it over? Thanks, John
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Old 06-29-2007, 03:48 PM
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I'm sorry, I don't have a record of receiving it. Please resend it to sanborn@cafes.net. Or, just post the question on this site!
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Old 06-29-2007, 07:34 PM
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Sanborn:

I race a '72 Duster 340 W2 at 1/4 mile and 1/8 mile drag strips. My block is a '69 340 with stock stroke crank (318 Truck Crank). It has ported long valve W-2 heads with bushed steel 1.5 rockers. It has a MP .590/312° solid lifter cam. Also, a MOROSO 8 qt pan, Melling Hi-Vol oil pump, 90° aluminum filter adapter, and factory windage tray. It has run a best of 11.21 @ 118.7 in the 1/4 mile. Car is is street legal.

I am interested in modifying the oiling system on my next rebuild or my next build-up. This engine has had excessive oil pressure in my opinion. On cold start-up with 5W-30 oil, it will peg the 100 psi gage. As it warms up, it maintains around 75-80. However, it does increase with rpm. After a burnout at the track, it deformed the stock oil filter and sprayed 8 qts of oil on the track. Luckily, it did not hurt the engine, and I was able to shut down before it went dry. I now run a MOROSO racing filter to deal with the hi pressure. My bearing clearances are set at 0.0025", both rod and main.

The only mods I did was to enlarge the #5 main cap port that mates with the oil pump, did not enlarge to .500", only port matched. I also deburred the oil drain back holes in the lifter galley. The original engine builder installed brass tube orifices in the front #1 main bearing oil supply holes, under the bearing shell. I did not know this until I tore it down. I do not know what the reason for this is.

I asked the question about hi oil pressure on moparts.com and one poster replied indicating that he has seen Melling install the Big Block Mopar oil pump relief valve in the Small Block pump. The Big Block valve is exactly the same as the small block except it does not have a relief hole drilled in the side of the sleeve. It does have the flute cut. Have you ever seen this condition?

Anyway, I want to know what mods you would recommend to an engine used to drag race in a 340, revving to 6500-7000. I had planned to enlarge the main to lifter galley holes to 9/32" and enlarge the oil pump and cap holes to .500". Also, the oil pump passage in the filter boss to .500". Do you recommend tubing the driver's side lifter hole with copper tube? Any other mods? Do you believe I could use a standard Melling pump? What brand pumps are best? Thanks for any help you can provide. Thanks for your time, Jo
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:45 PM
aholms aholms is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: San Angelo, Texas
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Question Melling Oil Pump Question

Can you guys take a look at this picture of my Melling HV oil pump? There is a grove on the lower machined surface from the pressure side of the housing to the oil pump drive shaft hole. Is this supposed to be cast in there or is this a casting flaw? I hate to go through the block with a fine tooth comb doing oil mods and have an issue with the pump itself and be loosing pressure up the pump shaft. Is this grove suppost to lube the drive shaft itself?

Has anyone machined out the cast pump output oil hole in the pump to .5" to match the main oil passage hole in the block? Thoughts?
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