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  #31  
Old 10-05-2005, 12:33 AM
rellik eeb rellik eeb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbododge
Don't want to stir the pot here, but



Granted this is a street car not a race car, but it has been very durable.



7000rpm, 14 psi, and he will ventilate even the best of parts.

Man, thats a heck of a street bruiser, whats your real drag engines see???

1200 rpms? 20+psi boost

Must last for 10 years at least.............
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  #32  
Old 10-05-2005, 01:20 PM
turbododge turbododge is offline
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?????? Rellik ?????? I thought I was pretty clear, what is it you are questioning or at issue with? A 7000 rpm 14 psi turbo small block (900hp) like he is considering is a pretty hot engine, in my opinion. Our 6000 rpm engine is a very good street engine (do you have a 600 hp street car that you can drive anywhere?), again in my opinion. I am guessing that you think a race engine is good for 9000rpm and lasts 5 runs? If I build a good street engine, I would be very disappointed if it did not last 10 years. I also want it to be very driveable and very quick.

And, yes, if he does something wrong like detonate he will ventilate it. If he doesn't do anything wrong, or have a malfunction, I think he will have decent durability.
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  #33  
Old 10-05-2005, 05:53 PM
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waynebo waynebo is offline
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Hey kid i didn't say anything about the "block" i said you use cheap eagle rods and you will spread your block,and i have built many,over 85 engines in my life and 'no i don't think your gonna build 900 hp".There are very few 900 hp smallblocks out there,n/a or otherwise and its mucho dollars.And don't you worry about spelling sonny boy,u have a good f---'in day 900hp on pump gas ,you don't want much.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Well my main question is will i be able to use a stock block? or will i have to go r3? this will be a turbo motor and 900hp is on pump gas, more on race gas.

Which rods?eagle says good to 800hp + but whats +? 850? i have to hav pistons made anyways so thats not a problem.

Well i guess just rods and block is all i need to know, any other issues?

it will be a 4in stroker, but piston bore depends, on stock block, or r3, if R3 then iwill go to 4.18 which will be a 440.

It shouldn't be hard to make 900hp on pump gas, there are a handful of phords and chebys making over 1000hp on pump gas with smaller motors (ls1's and 351's)

I wouldn't mind keeping my roller cam 318 block and just making a 390, hell even a 318 with a forged crank, i have seen 302's at 900hp.

I already have my turbo (holset h2d) and my headers (truck stanless steel
headers) also going EFI with a megasquirt system. (already have)

This is going into my 73 scamp and i would like to see 9's, i really only need 750hp. but i want a short block that can handle 1000 incase i want to upgrade the chassis.
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  #34  
Old 10-05-2005, 06:15 PM
73scamp318 73scamp318 is offline
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Wow cussing, so you do that becuase you don't know any adjectives?
And that post was before my dad said he would sell me his stuff

Show me a stock length and piston pin size rod for around $1000, i didn't think so.

Again this is a joke i can't make 900hp out of a turbo 340. You have no idea about turbo engines so don't reply if you don't know.

Go to www.Turbomustangs.com and go tell them that you can't 900hp with a turbo small block, on pump gas

i better go build a for 347 or a ls1 to make that kind of hp because a mopar can't do it.

Again about money how do you know that i can't afford it?

And i don't have to build 85 engines mine stay together the first time

its people like you that ruin forums, come in here cussing because a punk kid like me can build a 900hp 340 and you can't. Sorry i have good deals on my parts.

Steve
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  #35  
Old 10-05-2005, 06:26 PM
Rust collector Rust collector is offline
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Mopars are junk...


Just like any other brand, well except for honda, and toyota...

900hp turbo smallblock should not be a problem at all.

No, I have no experience myself, but I have seen what others have done...

I am not that sure about the pump gas, but you could always add some racefuel at the track.
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  #36  
Old 10-05-2005, 06:51 PM
skankweirdall skankweirdall is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbododge
Don't want to stir the pot here, but everyone needs to remember that turbo horsepower are MUCH easier on the engine than N/A horsepower. We ran our TT340 at 14 psi and 600 hp (6000 rpm max) engine for nearly 15 years and 40K miles. Stock block (4bolt conversion) stock rods with ARP bolts, stock crank. Teardown at 40K showed almost no wear, and it could have been put back together as is with no issues. Granted this is a street car not a race car, but it has been very durable. A 600hp N/A engine would not have been in anywhere near the condition after the same use.

IMHO if he uses parts that would survive 600hp N/A, he should be good to 900hp turbo and 14 psi without a lot of worry. BUT--everything has to be done right, no detonation, no bad clearances, no bad mixtures, no boost creep, etc. etc. One good batch of detonation at 7000rpm, 14 psi, and he will ventilate even the best of parts.
Jebus, at least someone here knows what they are talking about.
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  #37  
Old 10-05-2005, 07:40 PM
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do it with a 318" motor,if ford can do it with a 302" motor,i know you can do it,i imagine the factory dish top pistons will work just fine,probally good for 100'000 miles and 300 passes,hey maybe you could put a little nitro in there and run top fuel,o and by the way i have a garret turbo about 3' from me as i sit here,
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  #38  
Old 10-05-2005, 08:01 PM
73scamp318 73scamp318 is offline
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i was going to do a 318 engine at first, but i have a 340 for a great price.
So im guessing that a 318 is small? how about indy cars? nissan 4 cylinders putting 900hp with a 2.0L!!! but with a 340? no, can't be done...ok so your point is? I have some deodorant sitting 3" away from me, does that make me an expert on it? No.

Steve
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  #39  
Old 10-05-2005, 08:10 PM
73scamp318 73scamp318 is offline
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here is some dyno results.

1150hp 327

Over 1100hp on 302 900hp

over 1000hp 347

ok should i keep going? so all of these cars can make over 900hp but i can't?

Ill find the 1300hp ls1 with pump gas for ya also
You know since it isn't possible

Steve
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  #40  
Old 10-05-2005, 08:10 PM
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so your an expert on turbo's,all i'm saying is if 900hp smallblocks were easy then you would at least see a few,i haven't seen any.Now in magazines you see see some wild stuff,but they have 100's of hours of dyno time and $$$$$$$ out the yeng yang in them,and indy cars,i actually worked at rattle snake racing on indy cars in the early 80's.Back then a blown up,rod out the side offy cost around $80,000.00 used.I have nothing left to say,i wish you luck,kick butt with your new ride,waynebo
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  #41  
Old 10-05-2005, 08:16 PM
73scamp318 73scamp318 is offline
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i never said it was easy, it can be done with alot of research, i also just bought a spearco water to air intercooler. should keep temps way down

Steve
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  #42  
Old 10-06-2005, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waynebo
Well igot w5's on mine and ladder bars but i don't thank this kids gonna build
,in fact i know he can't build a 900 hp smallblock,and eagle rods for that kind of power ha ha,bust an r3 block wide open when they come out,besides if you got money to build a 900hp smallblock you can buy the best parts i would think,this ain't a backyard barbeque,of course it could be LOL,
Its funny how Waynebo was crying about everyone's critisism on the "Weird Idea Maybe" thread, but now he is the one being a jerk after he pointed the finger at everyone else for knocking his eccentric ideas. So much for you being supportive for "original thought" .....
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  #43  
Old 10-06-2005, 04:09 PM
73scamp318 73scamp318 is offline
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Well i have talked to a friend, and he is running eagle h-beam rods in a 1200hp blown motor with no problems. Its either that or aluminum rods from mopar.

Steve
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  #44  
Old 10-06-2005, 04:11 PM
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The Dartman The Dartman is offline
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I would just like to say that I have a lot of respect for skankweirdall from his previous posts, and until proven different, that carries over to his son as well.

I think that this entire board has seen more than thier fair share of 16 year old kids that think they can make a 400 hp 318 becuase they read an article in Hot Rod. We know that in real life that this can be a little more difficult than following a simple "recipe". Let's cut him some slack and let everyone chill out a little.

Remeber that under different circumstances we would seek each other out at race tracks, cruises, or whereever just becuase we have something in common - MOPAR. In fact, many of us would be friends simply becuase of this had there not been miles and miles between us. Speaking in a public forum does not give us any rights to behave any differently than if we were in one these places.

Getting back on topic, a 900 HP small block? Sure, with the right parts. This we all agree on. Turbos are fairly easy cheap power? For some of us "cheap" and "easy" does not describe a turbo setup.

Dartman
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  #45  
Old 10-06-2005, 05:37 PM
73scamp318 73scamp318 is offline
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Thanks Dartman. I just got my turbo in today, i can't wait to start fabing everything up.

I have more money to spend on this project beacuse i don't have bills, Thank my parents for that. Buy as much as possible now before i move out. My father has helped me alot and i owe everything i know to him

Steve
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  #46  
Old 10-06-2005, 06:37 PM
Kevin Garceau Kevin Garceau is offline
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Quote:
Well i have talked to a friend, and he is running eagle h-beam rods in a 1200hp blown motor with no problems. Its either that or aluminum rods from mopar.
hard to believe but hey, not my story.

I personally dont care what or how you build motors with. Its your choice. But if you think you need 900 hp to run 9s you are in big trouble.

I think others on here are thinking the same thing as I am. You came on here asking pretty remedial questions, then when you were questioned about certain things you got pretty defensive and all. And you were going to do this with stuff you had "laying around" Now it resorts to "... I know a guy..., my friend.... I read in ...."

No offense but if your so confident in your abilities to do this, go ahead and build it. What do I or anyone else really care? I hope you can and do.

Comparing the SB mopar to some of the other brands new ones is not a good idea. They are benefitting from a major reproduction of their cylinder heads. The LS1 head is one awesome technological development.
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  #47  
Old 10-06-2005, 08:22 PM
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Jerk this b1,i damn show ain't cried about anything on here,i think i made that post clear,leaf blowing and drink'in a beer or 3 make for some weird ideas :chainsaw:
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  #48  
Old 10-06-2005, 08:38 PM
B1owner B1owner is offline
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Cry

Quote:
Originally Posted by waynebo
Jerk this b1,i damn show ain't cried about anything on here,i think i made that post clear,leaf blowing and drink'in a beer or 3 make for some weird ideas :chainsaw:
sho aint cried? huh? lowks like yoo nead a spel chekir!
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  #49  
Old 10-06-2005, 09:26 PM
73scamp318 73scamp318 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Garceau
Comparing the SB mopar to some of the other brands new ones is not a good idea. They are benefitting from a major reproduction of their cylinder heads. The LS1 head is one awesome technological development.
You should just come out of the closet Kevin and admit you're a chevy lover. You remind me of a guy at the local track with a SS/AA Cuda. He admits he's a chevy guy but couldn't pass on the Cuda just because of what it is. Well it runs like crap and I'd assume that he will soon pronounce it not as good as a big block Camaro and sell it, for a major profit to some stupid Mopar guy.

Although the LS1 head is a good wedge head it isn't all that awesome. Even Popular (Chevy) Hotrodding praised the new Hemi as far superior to the Chevy, and that was from a bunch of admitted Chevy lovers. Besides what is a W9 head? Chopped liver?
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  #50  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:33 PM
skankweirdall skankweirdall is offline
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Just so you all know Steve Dulcich used Eagle H-beam rods in his 660 horsepower 580 ft/lbs W5 headed 360 stroker motor build saying, and I quote "Rather than use production rods, aftermarket Eagle H-beam rods were installed, a popular and cost effective upgrade. The Eagle rods all but rule out the likelihood of a rod failure in an application like ours."

So you guys saying 450 or even 500 horsepower are way off base. If you experienced an Eagle H-beam rod failure at that level than I doubt it was the rods fault.
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  #51  
Old 10-06-2005, 10:45 PM
Kevin Garceau Kevin Garceau is offline
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Quote:
You should just come out of the closet Kevin and admit you're a chevy lover.
I race both chevys and mopars.

I unlike many am not so hard headed that I can see the good in any vehicle. I like quality vehicles that go fast. Be it mopar, chevy, ford or an import. Yes I do like some imports. Not saying I like the riced out piles of crap most kids drive but I do enjoy seeing rotary engines running 7 seconds in the quarter mile.

Its not news that my dragster will be big block chevy powered. I cant get cylinder heads in the mopar version for what I need at a normal price. Im not going to pay twice as much for the same horspower. Money to me is of significance. Add up the cost to build a 600 + engine and tell me which is cheaper. Heck even Koffels sells BBC engines much cheaper with more HP than they do their own dodges. I would love to run a mopar engine in the dragster but cant find the cylinder heads to accomidate the cubic inches.

Quote:
Besides what is a W9 head? Chopped liver?
Nope great head, but is it used on daily drivers, available all over the place relativly cheap with great potential?
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  #52  
Old 10-07-2005, 10:40 AM
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Seems to me this post got off to a bad start from the "get-go".

From my standpoint, any response I make on this forum(or any forum for that matter) is an attempt to be informative/helpful. I'm not selling the information, trying to sell parts or build engines for customers---I don't have time to work on my own stuff.

As a group, we racers tend to believe everything we read in some of the national magazines. Oftentimes, that information is deceptive---in some cases "outright false" due to the fact that important information is left out of the article. For example, information is included on what "worked" but usually the information that "didn't work" is left out. This is done purposefully---in order to make the article(and the writer of the article) look as good as possible. A lot of times, the writers are also trying to sell you something!

What hurts me(as a geezerly, old racer) is to see a racer trying to do something that may be unique(or at least creative), and get his head too far "in the clouds" while failing to keep his/her "feet on the ground". That is a recipe for disaster. I view my contribution as trying to keep their "feet on the ground". I've been there(head in the clouds), my bald head has the scars, my billfold has been flattened---I just don't want to see anyone there again!

I tend to be very cautious regarding reliability. I do this because I assume that the owner will push the limit(why have it if you don't use it?). And, once the engine has been destroyed---there's no bragging power left--only embarassment! Maybe my chosen form of racing is different(oval track Vs. other forms of racing)---but I am a product of my background.

It seems my comments about Eagle rods has caused quite a stir! The comment was made in a helpful tone. Eagle rods are very good---for what they were designed for(limited performance applications). But I have seen "bushel baskets" of them fail when pushed too far. Let me give a "real life" example: About four years ago, there was a lot of balleyho over a 360" Mopar engine built by Maurice Petty for Nascar Late Model racing. These are 350CFM, flat tappet cam, flat top piston, two barrel applications. They achieved about 380HP which is considered quite good(compared to Ford N heads, GM with aftermarket 23* heads). This was a "big deal" because Mopar funded the development since they wanted to get serious in Nascar Late Model racing. Maurice's photo was plastered on the front cover.

What they didn't show was the pile of destroyed plunder in the back room. Yeah, you guessed it, part of the plunder were Eagle rods/ MP cranks that couldn't get out of the dyno room before failure. 380HP/ 6200RPM? What gives? Petty ended using the 4340 MP crank with Oliver billet rods. But the article didn't include what had failed. Granted, dyno pulls strain components beyond a lot of racing strains. But 380HP/6200RPM???

Will Eagle rods take more than 380HP?---of course, in certain applications. Will stock cranks/ stock rods take more than 380HP---of course, in certain applications(I've been there). The important message is they can take it in many applications---but not in ALL applications.
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  #53  
Old 10-07-2005, 11:17 AM
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660hp is a long ways from 900hp,i will be using cat h beams in mine,but at around 600hp
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  #54  
Old 10-07-2005, 11:19 AM
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yea you can't spell at all b1 quote-"sho aint cried? huh? lowks like yoo nead a spel chekir!" but you brought that up,spelling don't mean crap to me
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  #55  
Old 10-07-2005, 12:20 PM
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Sanborn: Good to see a sense of reason here, it has gotten a little out of hand!

Which Eagle rods were you referring to in the 2 barrel engines? It really makes me wonder what could cause that kind of carnage at those power and rpm levels, as it is well within where many of us are still using stock parts.

I totally agree about the magazine writers and their results, good results sell mediocre magazines. I have seen quite a few folks try the "recipes" without coming close to the same results, but I also have seen what would be considered odd combinations work really well. It all seems to be in the skill and attention to detail of the builder.
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  #56  
Old 10-07-2005, 07:41 PM
skankweirdall skankweirdall is offline
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Sanborn, I always appreciate your comments but I also understand they are coming from a different perspective. That's not a bad thing though as sometimes we need that.

I was more referring to the onslaught that followed your post summarily dismissing the Eagles as not good for anything. Which just isn't true.

As for Maurice and his troubles how do we know what he was really doing with those rods and even what rods they were? They could have been I beam chevy rods with Honda size pins for all we know and he could have been pounding them relentlessly on the dyno for all I know. Either way we aren't talking an endurance engine here. It's not going to race the 24 hours of Daytona or even spend 2+ hours at 9000 rpm while going around the circle track at Daytona. It is a street engine that will be raced maybe a couple nights a month at the local drag strip. As such how much time is this engine actually going to spend making peak horsepower? Not much at all in reality so maybe those claims by Eagle aren't all that far fetched when you consider the application. As my kid has said I use an MP 360 short block in my Duster. Hyper pistons, stock rods and crank, I did put in ARP rod bolts though. But still it pushes my 3100 pound Duster to mid 10's and lives going to 7200. Would I trust this engine to run at 7200 for 2 hours at WOT? No, but I'm certainly not afraid of it in its intended application either.
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  #57  
Old 10-07-2005, 08:23 PM
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I'm using H-beam rods in a 750 to 800 horse small block!
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  #58  
Old 10-08-2005, 08:08 AM
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turbododge--The Eagle rods used in the Petty/Dodge prototype engine were the "H" beam.

skankweirdall--That was exactly my point about the Eagle rods----they work fine in certain applications---but not all. BTW, I'm sure Petty "hammered" the engine on the dyno. They were almost forced to, because when they (and Dodge) come out with a "crate" engine for that application---It does need to be "bulletproof".

And I am "very touchy" about cranks, rods, pistons and engine reliability. For years, we were the only ones to campaign a Dodge powered late model on a circuit---we got a lot of attention both good/bad. If we had a failure---it was known 400 miles away the next day. Case in point--about 7-8 years ago we raced at the new Lowes dirt track in Concord NC(big deal, TV, lots of print media, Nascar people all over the pits, etc.). The track was brutal, very tacky, rough. There were about 90 teams there, over 20 teams lost one or more engines there. We lost our only engine due to oil starvation at 9200 constant RPM. There are reasons why there was oil starvation---but that is another story. Guess whose picture was plastered on the local/national/speedchannel when comments were made about all the engines lost----you guessed it, ours and we were still the only Dodge in competition.

Fortunately, that was the last engine we lost; and we don't run the circuit anymore; and there are several Mopar backed teams now---so we aren't "high visibility" now, just crazy Mopar racers.

My "touchy" feeling extends to street use too. I insisted my son use a LA billet crank/Carillo rods in his GMC boosted, 355" GMC truck. It is a street cruzer--although it will run about 118 in 1/8 mile(local radar gun). Can't afford a failure---we have a reputation to protect.

Better go now---you pushed my "talk" button too hard!
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  #59  
Old 10-08-2005, 10:28 PM
Tarrbabe Tarrbabe is offline
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wow Interesting reading........

I see a lot of ideas, knowledge and theory here. Many things can be done to make a lot of power. But power is the enemy of engine longevity. Even the NASCAR boys have to rebuild after a race and they know engines from the get-go. I have seen stock Chevy rods that were turned 11,000 rpm and only rebuilt twice a year on the strip. Yes they were polished and inspected. Don't believe it? What about the INDY engines? When you run a short stroke, the rod's don't take the stress of a four inch plus stroke. The old 302 Chevy turned ungodly rpm's all the time. As for 900 HP, with the right set-up it is possible but engine life will be much shorter than a 600 HP engine.
As for cam? Racer Brown should handle that for you.
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  #60  
Old 10-10-2005, 10:33 PM
71dart666 71dart666 is offline
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Ok since were on the subject of high output forced induction small blocks here let me throw my ambitions out there for some comments. Though not shooting for 900 hp Id like to build a small block for my Dart that can consistently run 11s on 91 octane CA gas. From what I have read so far on them Procharger systems seem to be pretty impressive and I was thinking of using one of thier superchargers. My main question is.. would a factory 360 block hold up to that if it pushed 550-600 hp which is my goal. I was also looking into the resto 340 blocks and making a 416 stroker out of that and then boosting it with maybe 6-8 psi. Of course Id get the best internals I could, forged everything, 4 bolt mains ect. Anybody here know how well those "resto" blocks hold up vs stock blocks, ive heard they are basically R3 blocks with motor mounts on here a few times.
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