Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide!



Go Back   Moparchat - Home of MOPAR enthusiasts worldwide! > Technical Forums > Performance Talk

Click here to search for Mopar cars and parts for sale.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-23-2008, 12:34 AM
JVMopar's Avatar
JVMopar JVMopar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Mellen, WI
Age: 42
Posts: 2,524
Default Ballast resistor problems.

The neighbor has a '88 dodge wrecker and it's been eating ballast resistors like candy. It'll run for about an hour then die. No power to the coil. So another new ballast and it's good for a while longer. It's been through 5 so far. I think he should just bypass the ballast as without points there really isn't a need for it. What are your thoughts?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-23-2008, 05:38 AM
cageman's Avatar
cageman cageman is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Bismarck ND
Age: 46
Posts: 5,544
Default

I dont run a ballast on anything, dont know what they are for.
This is on ten vehicles I drive, I must just be lucky. Since I quit running the ballasts I havent had a coil go out
I would ditch it.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-23-2008, 08:23 AM
dgc333 dgc333 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Pembroke, MA
Posts: 773
Default

The ballast is there to protect the coil from over heating and failing. If you are continuely blowing ballast resistors there is a problem somewhere in the electrical system. Either a short to ground or is the charging system working correctly with 13.8 to 14.1 volts suppling the ballast.

Don't "ditch" the ballast until you find out what's going on or you will be melting wires or blowing coils.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-23-2008, 09:36 AM
peg leg peg leg is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Star, Idaho
Age: 88
Posts: 2,669
Default Since the ballast

Drives the coil, I'd bet the coil has developed a low resistance to ground on trhe primary side. Replace the coil.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-23-2008, 09:43 AM
JVMopar's Avatar
JVMopar JVMopar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Mellen, WI
Age: 42
Posts: 2,524
Default

The ballast is used to lower the voltage at the coil. When they had the points ignition the voltage was lowered with the ballast to keep the points from burning up rapidly. Since the truck doesn't have points I wanted to do away with it but wasn't sure how the coil would handle it or the ECU. Some electronics won't handle more than 9 volts and since the ECU drives the coil's negative side I was worried about ECU failures if I bypassed it.

I'll check the charging system and then bypass it.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-23-2008, 10:49 AM
passing you passing you is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: ca
Posts: 731
Default

Unless you have a stock coil you can skip the ballast.
If it says 12 volt, give it 12 volts.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-23-2008, 12:00 PM
dwc43's Avatar
dwc43 dwc43 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Shelbyville,Tn.
Age: 54
Posts: 23,987
Biggrin

You can't ditch the ballast or you will damage the coil and or ecu. You might check to see if you have a bad coil or ecu to begin with.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-23-2008, 12:32 PM
JVMopar's Avatar
JVMopar JVMopar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Mellen, WI
Age: 42
Posts: 2,524
Default

Well I got a little more info today. It's been overcharging. So there is his problem. The coil is the same as a 2.2L turbo car which is fed 12 volts so no problems there. I'll have to experiment with my own truck as I have several I can do it with, but I suspect that the ballast isn't needed as the coil should have enough resistance to use up a couple of volts.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-23-2008, 01:26 PM
wmfd7 wmfd7 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wilson's Mills, NC
Posts: 94
Default

Have him put a new battery in it. The ballest resistor should be fine.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-23-2008, 01:58 PM
beepbeepsrule beepbeepsrule is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Argyle, TX
Age: 70
Posts: 965
Default

JVMoPAr,

I think if the over-charging culprit is found (voltage regulator or alternator or wiring problems) the resistor problem should go away.

One solution even after the charging system is fixed is to buy a coil that needs no external ballast and fix up a LARGE (10-12) gauge wire to jumper across the ballast resistor. A parts store should be helpful in finding a 12 volt coil that is internally ballasted and has no need for a ballast resistor. A different coil may require a change in the coil wire boot, I'm just sayin'.

Coils are designed for external ballast or are designed to handle it internally, one or the other. Ballast is not just for points systems, it is to keep the primary circuit current from spiking/crashing due to the coil load as it changes due to rpm and heat and actual spark plug load feedback from the secondary circuit. Fluctuations in primary current will affect the secondary circuit in an amplified manner. It is important to keep the primary load electrically weighted or ballasted so it will not swing widely.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-23-2008, 02:36 PM
dgc333 dgc333 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Pembroke, MA
Posts: 773
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVMopar View Post
Well I got a little more info today. It's been overcharging. So there is his problem. The coil is the same as a 2.2L turbo car which is fed 12 volts so no problems there. I'll have to experiment with my own truck as I have several I can do it with, but I suspect that the ballast isn't needed as the coil should have enough resistance to use up a couple of volts.

The computer in a 2.2 turbo motor varies the dwell to the coil so just because its fed 12 volts the current is still controlled to prevent it from over heating. It might even be worse with the 2.2 coil running at a constant voltage.

You really need to know what you are doing if you start mixing and matching parts from systems that work differently. The 2.2 coil may very well be contributing to the ballast resistor failing and it could very likely have an over heating problem if run at a constant 12 volts.

Its not the voltage that destroys the coil (they have 10's of thousands of volts on the secondaries), its the power they have to dissipate as heat. The heat generated can be impacted by increasing the voltage, reducing the resistance or changing the duty cycle of the coil (dwell).

My recommendation would be to use a stock coil with a stock ballast resistor or an aftermarket coil with its recomended ballast.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-23-2008, 07:14 PM
cageman's Avatar
cageman cageman is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Bismarck ND
Age: 46
Posts: 5,544
Default

I knew no one would agree, but like I said, I have no ballasts on anything I drive. Must just be luck huh.
I had the same thing happen with an old truck I got running a couple months ago. I used the 87 dippy alt that was on the motor, but I failed to change the 70 trucks mechanical voltage reg, it blew every bulb out in the truck, I couldnt believ it, oh and it was short a couple grounds, so when I turned the lights on that day, it must of backfed through all the grounds and not one light was left in the truck. I shut the truck off and put the elec v reg on and problem solved. While I had the guages out to replace the bulbs, I bypassed the amp guage. Headlights, tail lights and marker lights all blew too. The only bulb saved was the dome light, but the wiring isnt complete to that.
But the coil lives. No ballast on it.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-23-2008, 11:49 PM
passing you passing you is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: ca
Posts: 731
BS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwc43 View Post
You can't ditch the ballast or you will damage the coil and or ecu. You might check to see if you have a bad coil or ecu to begin with.
Thats strange cause your ecu should have 12 volts to begin with.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-23-2008, 11:53 PM
passing you passing you is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: ca
Posts: 731
Default

Anyone run an MSD 6a and blaster 2?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-24-2008, 08:48 AM
dgc333 dgc333 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Pembroke, MA
Posts: 773
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cageman View Post
I knew no one would agree, but like I said, I have no ballasts on anything I drive. Must just be luck huh.
No one agrees with you because its technically wrong! You are fortunate and lucky to have gotten away with it for as long as you have. Taking the ballast out isn't going to cause an instant failure of the coil but if you take the average life of a large sample it will be dramatically shorter than when the ballast is installed. An just like most things in life the distribution of the failures follows a normal curve where some will last longer and some will last a short time and the further you get away from the average in either direction the fewer there are in the population.

A ballast resistor by definition is a variable resistor that changes its resistance with temperature. The hotter it gets the higher the resistance. Its this ability to change its resistance that makes it desirable in an inductive ignition system over a coil that can run at battery voltage all the time.

In an inductive ignition (points or electronic) current flowing through the primary windings generates a magnetic field, when the points open or the ecu switches off the current flow the field collapses and this is what causes the potential on the secondaries that creates a spark.

The short coming with this design is it takes a defined amount of time for a sufficient magnetic field to develop enough potential to creat a spark at a fixed voltage input. So, as the rpm increases the time between the need for each spark goes down resulting in less potential to create a spark. This is happening right at the same time the engine needs more potential to insure a spark to reliably ignite the mixture.

So if you design a system that works well at high rpms there will be too much current flowing through the coil at low rpms (and especially with the key on and engine not running) that will result in the coil over heating shortening its life expectancy. Or you design a system that is safe at low it won't perfrom as well at high rpm. So to compensate for this you either need to vary the input voltage or vary the time (dwell) the current flows.

This is where the ballast comes in. At low rpms where the current is flowing for a longer period of time between each spark the ballast gets hot and the resistance increases thus limiting current flow to a safe level. As the rpm increases the time between each spark goes down and the ballast cools off lowering its resistance allowing more current to flow through the coil to ensure a reliable spark at the higher rpms.

More modern electronic ignitions don't use a ballast resistor because the more sophisticated electronics in the control module can vary the dwell angle (or increase and decrease the time the current flows between each spark).
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-24-2008, 07:42 PM
cageman's Avatar
cageman cageman is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Bismarck ND
Age: 46
Posts: 5,544
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgc333 View Post
More modern electronic ignitions don't use a ballast resistor because the more sophisticated electronics in the control module can vary the dwell angle (or increase and decrease the time the current flows between each spark).
exactly, must be what I have, Im not stuck in the 60's.
One thing I will never have is the feeling of being left on the road because my ballast burned out, and with ten vehicles, I think my chances are greater, so I figured out the weak link, and got rid of it. So far so good.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-25-2008, 02:37 AM
Walkercolt Walkercolt is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Tulsa,OK
Posts: 4,288
Default

As now an official "old fart", I can say I've wired around a few ballast resistors when I worked at the gas station, but I never had one fail on me. But I never "lost" a condsensor on a point distributor except in my parent's VW Campmobile when I got above 5000 feet in Colorado, either. Now, when I had a BSA Gold Star cycle, I used to carry a little box in my shirt pocket. Not matches or "weed", a box of Geo. Lucas Electrics Ltd. points! Flat-head Ford's and Merc's V-8's were hard on points too. British cars and bikes always had amazingly weak ignition systems to go along with their poor electrical systems. We used to call George Lucas the "Prince of Darkness". Not the movie guy, the electrical guy! Merry Christmas!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-25-2008, 06:41 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Richland, WA
Age: 71
Posts: 2,018
Default

Some Mopar Action Ballast Resistor questions and answers:

http://www.google.com/search?q=site%...qfront=ballast
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-25-2008, 03:39 PM
cageman's Avatar
cageman cageman is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Bismarck ND
Age: 46
Posts: 5,544
Default

I like this quote, no truer words have ever been spoken...

"On cars with electronic ignition, a spare ECU and ballast resistor are must- haves."
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-26-2008, 09:51 AM
dgc333 dgc333 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Pembroke, MA
Posts: 773
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cageman View Post
exactly, must be what I have, Im not stuck in the 60's.
One thing I will never have is the feeling of being left on the road because my ballast burned out, and with ten vehicles, I think my chances are greater, so I figured out the weak link, and got rid of it. So far so good.
You really shouldn't be talking about eliminating a ballast resistor when you are using an aftermarket ignition system that does not require one. Its misleading and the way you posted it implyed that you were using a stock system.

Also, nothing is infallible and if you have a failure in your aftermarket ignition you won't have a ready source of parts. So you will be stuck on the road with no way of fixing it.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-26-2008, 03:55 PM
cageman's Avatar
cageman cageman is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Bismarck ND
Age: 46
Posts: 5,544
Default

I'm using all oem ignition. Nothing store bought but the two spade connectors and a short piece of wire to bypass the ballast. Heck, 98% is junkyard stuff.
You couldnt pay me to run MSD on anything I own. I can go to any junkyard (preferred) or parts store and easily replace anything in my ignition. I just simplify it by getting rid of the ballast is all. I have it on daily drivers and race cars, works well for both. All it takes is one little delco HEI module and your done. But the one stock type orange box I have left that still works is running without a ballast also. So to me it really doesnt matter.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-26-2008, 10:59 PM
dave5711 dave5711 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mountain view County, Alberta
Age: 54
Posts: 206
Default

The question is, WHY are the resistors failing.

Wether you can run without one is a debate unto itself. Finding the problem is probably the best route to take.

The overcharge could be the fault.

I've also seen bad coils cause this too. For what a coil costs, it's worth a shot. If the coil is bad, it will fail faster with out the resistor.

If you are looking for a better resistor, the 2 pin MSD .8 ohm is a really good piece, compared to the stock stuff.

As for a comparison that has been made to MSD.... MSD is totally different system, and is often misunderstood.

#1 myth with msd, is that you are to remove the ballast resistor.

Close reading of the instructions specify that you don't use a ballast with MSD, this is true. BUT it means you don't put one in the primary wire between the MSD box and the coil.(where you wouold normally find one on a ignition sysytem)

Further reading of the instructions, states very clearly that the voltage reduced signal on the old coil primary+ wire (reduced by the ballast) is perfectly acceptable to be used as the on/off wire for the MSD box, This wire is only an on signal, the unit draws it's power from the battery directly, when wired properly.
All that said, the factory ballast does not need to be removed. Failure of the ballast is virtually elimnated here too, as the current on the circuit is very low, since it is now just a signal wire

I have read recent revisions to msd instructions, that advise USING A BALLAST in the on/off wire to correct a run on type of problem that can exist with msd. It's caused by low voltage seaping throught the ignition switch on some cars.
The resistor makes it so that when it is turned to "off" the voltage is so low, that there is no chance of the ignition system staying energised.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-27-2008, 12:51 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Richland, WA
Age: 71
Posts: 2,018
Default

I went to MSD 10 years ago, and while wiring it in, I talked to a lot of tech guys, and they said leave the ballast resistor in. For 10 years, no problems.

Also, what a riot, Lucas the "Prince of Darkness". I still should have bought that perfect 1967 Jaguar XKE Coupe, with the freshly rebuilt engine, in 1980 for $7500!!! Beautiful car!!

http://images.search.yahoo.com/image...sigh=1185q858r


http://images.search.yahoo.com/image...sigh=1185q858r
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-27-2008, 11:26 AM
dgc333 dgc333 is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Pembroke, MA
Posts: 773
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cageman View Post
I'm using all oem ignition. Nothing store bought but the two spade connectors and a short piece of wire to bypass the ballast. Heck, 98% is junkyard stuff.
Then you don't have a modern system that varies the dwell and you ARE stressing the coil.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-27-2008, 12:08 PM
cageman's Avatar
cageman cageman is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Bismarck ND
Age: 46
Posts: 5,544
Default

Ok. I am confident it wont cause me any problems.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-27-2008, 02:00 PM
BelvedereII's Avatar
BelvedereII BelvedereII is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Omaha Nebraska
Posts: 197
Default

Cageman, you've been intentionally misleading by stating you have 10 vehicles using oem ignitions without a ballast resistor. You have ONE vehicle with Chrysler oem ignition, the others have been fixed via an oem Delco part, but you stated was "I'm using all oem ignition". Oem, sure, but not original Chrysler design and installation--a key element. Great that your single original system hasn't burned out anything....are you using a coil original to the vehicle, or a direct replacement, or a coil much more able to handle non-ballasted input? That would be very important as well from what I can tell.

A big part of this might get back to the Chrysler voltage regulation system as a weak link causing a large number of systems having the alternator put out too much voltage. Looks like the regulator takes its readings from the ignition system wiring to make it as much in tune with ignition as possible so any excessive voltage should make other systems suffer rather than ignition, but I can't figure it to 100 percent yet.

BII
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-27-2008, 02:26 PM
dwc43's Avatar
dwc43 dwc43 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Shelbyville,Tn.
Age: 54
Posts: 23,987
Biggrin

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVMopar View Post
The coil is the same as a 2.2L turbo car which is fed 12 volts but I suspect that the ballast isn't needed as the coil should have enough resistance to use up a couple of volts.
The 2.2 coil is fed through the pc that can limit it's voltage.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-27-2008, 02:28 PM
dwc43's Avatar
dwc43 dwc43 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Shelbyville,Tn.
Age: 54
Posts: 23,987
Biggrin

Quote:
Originally Posted by passing you View Post
Thats strange cause your ecu should have 12 volts to begin with.
Depends. The 5 pin ecu is run from the balast.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-27-2008, 06:00 PM
passing you passing you is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: ca
Posts: 731
Default

Right, low voltage wire, which is used on early smog crap, but it still has the main 12 volt lead.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-28-2008, 04:31 AM
cageman's Avatar
cageman cageman is offline
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Bismarck ND
Age: 46
Posts: 5,544
Default

I would change the orange box vehicle I have, but I drive it once a year.
It is oem, it is an hei module, what difference would that make. A coil is a coil. I dont think my coil has any clue what ignition module I use. I guess I mostly use stock coils, heck, a couple are oem to the year, 70, 71, 62, and so on, I do have a big accel coil, the square one, been running that thing on my 70 for years with out a ballast resistor. All the others have stock coils.
My one race car has an epoxy filled coil, msd brand, actually two of my race cars have that, but the one hasnt ran in like 4 years, still in bodywork mode, but it has run fine with out a ballast for years before that. I just dont think it is necessary. KISS
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FBO Ballast Resistor +PIC dust Performance Talk 14 09-21-2007 03:29 PM
Ballast resistor superdart Performance Talk 8 08-26-2004 10:56 PM
ballast resistor Grandv8 Performance Talk 0 01-25-2004 02:53 AM
Which ballast resistor??? 3404speed Performance Talk 7 10-21-2003 12:24 AM
Ballast Resistor with MSD 6al? Chris A Performance Talk 2 03-18-2000 02:05 AM




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
. . . . .