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  #1  
Old 04-17-2009, 01:30 PM
Brian Mills Brian Mills is offline
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Question Big Block Intakes

I have always liked the Holley Street Dominator for stock 440 applications . However , lately I have been bumping into people who adamately believe that a dual plane intake is the only choice for stock applications .

Now say were going to run this engine like stock , i.e. we are not reving it past stock numbers , and it will get headers , a mild cam , and a performance ignition upgrade , and it will be jetted and tuned to accept all of the above .

So my question is about the open plenum of the Holley v.s. a dual plane . I just don't think the 440 low end performance drops off much with the open plenum . Further to that , I always thought that aluminum dual plane intakes were more of a weight saver , and really didn't out perform stock iron intakes very much , if at all .

If anyone out there has any opinions or experiences I'd like to hear them .
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  #2  
Old 04-17-2009, 01:58 PM
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rumblefish360 rumblefish360 is offline
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Well, I have a '78 400 P code engine and went from the iron chunk to a Holley Street Dom for the 400. Theres little to talk about on a stock engine. It does perform better, but a very small margin at best.
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Old 04-17-2009, 02:11 PM
Brian Mills Brian Mills is offline
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You found a Holley 300-13 Street Dom for the B engine ? Rare intake buddy , that one was a failure . Even the people at Holley Choked when I went looking for one . I had to settle for the Performer RPM , which will not be a bad thing . I guess I should clarify , Holley 300-14 Street Dominator for the RB engine . Sorry Rumble , I really didn't think anyone had that intake . My Bad .
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Old 04-17-2009, 05:04 PM
DonCarr DonCarr is offline
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Mopar muscle did a big block 440 Magnum buildup. They swaped the intake before upping the magnum cam, had 850 cfm carb, 1-7/8 headers.
-------------Iron---Holley Street dominator
2600 rpm ---470TQ----456TQ
3000--------488-------474
3400-3600---tie@500TQ
4000---------478------498
5000---------410------441

So the cast Iron intake won below 3600 rpm with magnum cam. Performance below 2600 rpm matters, but no dyno results. Gap would likely widen a fair bit.

Another intake shootout on a "strong" 440 shows the Performer RPM beating the torque numbers of a cast iron intake by 10TQ at 4000 rpm and 35HP@6200.

It's a bit tough to draw conclusions from these numbers, but I would suggest the RPM may match the cast iron intake above idle and show slight improvements once it gets going. Single plane would be softer up to 3600 Rpm and likely not beat Performer RPM anywhere.
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Old 04-17-2009, 07:15 PM
GLoy GLoy is offline
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I can only tell you from my point of veiw of course, the street dominator has been the best rb intake that has ever been on my car....now I race a 70 challenger with rb mtr(until this year) 451 roller ect. ect. purely race no other intake can match the 60 foot times of the dominator I cant explain why, thats just the way it is. by the way I would sell it if someone is in need! cant use it on the new mtr.
Gary
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  #6  
Old 04-17-2009, 07:40 PM
valiant64 valiant64 is offline
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A 440 makes plenty of low-end torque as is without the need for a dual plane in most cases. The Street Dominator even though a single plane, has a small plenum so it's not all that soft on the bottom end. The Edelbrock Performer RPM is a great intake, but has clearance issues with some air cleaner/hoods. I'd say that for most 440's, that either is a good intake. The MP M1 single plane is a good intake as well, but if you already have a Street Dom intake, theres no point in buying one by MP's own admission since it's only good for about 5hp on the top end. BTW, the old Edelbrock CH4B is still good if you can find one.
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Old 04-17-2009, 08:30 PM
DonCarr DonCarr is offline
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The Dominator won the shootout with the M1 a close second. This was on a 636HP 600TQ 440 engine. The cast iron made 575HP and RPM 610HP.

Sounded like this was going on a heavy vehicle, low rpm use.
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Old 04-17-2009, 09:24 PM
GLoy GLoy is offline
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dominator 60 ft = 1.297

mp m1 60 ft = 1.322

doesnt seem like much untill your there but you can feel it, on a street car doubt you would notice put one on and burn up some tires... your mtr just wants some fuel!!!
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  #9  
Old 04-17-2009, 11:33 PM
Walkercolt Walkercolt is offline
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One thing to throw into the mix, is today's unleaded swill doesn't atomise as well as 70's gasoline. A dual plane will generally have higher port velocities, and all of the cylinders may get a better fuel-air mixture. If you're running P/S, P/B, A/C on the street, the dual plane may be "snappier" below 3000 RPM, with a properly jetted carb. You trade some top-end HP for low-end HP and torque(depending also on your cam choice) and you're form and amount of ignition advance. About everything but the color of your shirt makes a difference! Heavier car with an auto and low rear-end ratio will make a big difference too. An Imperial vs: a Belvedere might make a difference....
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  #10  
Old 04-18-2009, 12:52 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkercolt View Post
One thing to throw into the mix, is today's unleaded swill doesn't atomise as well as 70's gasoline. A dual plane will generally have higher port velocities, and all of the cylinders may get a better fuel-air mixture. If you're running P/S, P/B, A/C on the street, the dual plane may be "snappier" below 3000 RPM, with a properly jetted carb. You trade some top-end HP for low-end HP and torque(depending also on your cam choice) and you're form and amount of ignition advance. About everything but the color of your shirt makes a difference! Heavier car with an auto and low rear-end ratio will make a big difference too. An Imperial vs: a Belvedere might make a difference....
For better atomization, I went with annular boosters on my 850 DP.
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  #11  
Old 04-20-2009, 03:02 AM
DonCarr DonCarr is offline
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Could add 3 ounces of acetone per tank to improve fuel ignition qualities. Works great on the few Hondas around the house. Cleans out the fuel injection and combustion chambers too. Plus improved mileage. Canadian gas is poor quality.

Not sure about high performance engines.
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  #12  
Old 04-20-2009, 05:31 AM
buckneccid buckneccid is offline
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I always go looking for one of these when I build a 440, I've had them on at least 3 now, and it's what I have on the 440 in the Satellite. It didn't seem to lose any bottom end, and I've never ran out of top end with one. I still don't remember the numbers on it, something like a WCVS, and it's too early to go look at it lol. I found it by accident once at the Mopar Nats, it was cheap so I just grabbed it and tried. Sure glad I did now. I'm tempted to get this one and just lay it back, but hey, I'm old, I've probably built my last car (shrug). http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...3AIT&viewitem=
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  #13  
Old 04-28-2009, 12:48 AM
dave5711 dave5711 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Mills View Post
I have always liked the Holley Street Dominator for stock 440 applications . However , lately I have been bumping into people who adamately believe that a dual plane intake is the only choice for stock applications .

Now say were going to run this engine like stock , i.e. we are not reving it past stock numbers , and it will get headers , a mild cam , and a performance ignition upgrade , and it will be jetted and tuned to accept all of the above .

So my question is about the open plenum of the Holley v.s. a dual plane . I just don't think the 440 low end performance drops off much with the open plenum . Further to that , I always thought that aluminum dual plane intakes were more of a weight saver , and really didn't out perform stock iron intakes very much , if at all .

If anyone out there has any opinions or experiences I'd like to hear them .

I have the rpm air gap on my 440. It is about 2" taller than a stock iron unit. At least 1" taller than a run of the mill dual plain.

I like it. It runs in the 11's, so I'm quite happy with it. I have often considered going to a single plain, but never have had the chance.

I was recommended this manifold by my cam grinder, and a couple of other guys who had input on the motor.

Combo is a 64 B body. All metal
All iron motor, 67 hp 440 block, .030 over, stock stroke, 915 heads(stock valve size manley vales), 10.7:1 comp, 242 510 lift racer brown cam, junkyard headers, and 373 gears., 3400 stall 9.5" dyamic converter

Shift light flashes at 5800.

The only drawback I can see to this manifold is it's height. Hood clearance is a definate issue for those who aren't prepared to cut. I did run this with a flat hood, but needed a 2" drop base air cleaner. Might not work on some cars.
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  #14  
Old 04-28-2009, 01:34 AM
DonCarr DonCarr is offline
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Default Addicted to thinking.

Not too sure here but if someone owned a single plane on a mild engine, David Vizard would likely recommend fastening/welding in a center divider to shift some power/torque down low, especially with a tight converter.

He would recommend a strong booster signal with an aluminum air gap style manifold that cools the air/fuel quickly.

Should give that nasty look without loosing the bottom.
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  #15  
Old 04-28-2009, 01:43 AM
Walkercolt Walkercolt is offline
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Dave, I'm no BB expert at all, but I see more and more builds in the mags both by the mags and by individuals running air-gaps if there aren't hood clearence issues. These are intended usually as hot-street ocassional strip builds. Most dyno curves I've seen where they tested different intakes, show what you give-up on top with a dual plane, you gain in torque and low-end HP, and especially heavier cars are easier to launch and have better 60' times without 4.10's which doesn't make a great daily driver or high-way car. You aren't doing too bad in the 11's, shifting at 5800 and your air-gap(especially with 915 iron heads and stock sized valves! I'm impressed!). I'd bet you can take many "faster" guys in an 1/8th. I'd like to hear more about your set-up. Carb, and such. I would have thought with your cam, you'd need more CR, but you're obviously making some great power. Whatever you're doing, it's pretty darn good!
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:24 PM
dave5711 dave5711 is offline
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More info......

The carb is a 750 mighty demon. I ran it with a bigs 950hp. It didn't go any faster.

It has caltracs as well.

The cars best pass was 11.7 at 114.8mph.(IIRC) That was with 410 gears.

Since then it's gained some weight. 3890 pounds with driver. Up from 3810(I switched to a dana 60, and added a second battery)
Also switched to 3.73's. It ran high 11.8's at the same track last year.

Full exhaust with tail pipes. (I have cutouts. It runs .07 slower with out the cutouts open) 3" system to the muffler(3" flow master's), and 2 1/2" in the tailpipes

The car still runs belt driven water pump, and alternator. Manual steering and brakes.
Stock fuel tank(no cell)
The 915's were home ported by me.
It also has racer brown 1.6/1.5 combo roller rockers. Makes the lift 545 on the intake

I've beefed up/over built some of the car so it can run a bigger motor, but of course don't have the bigger motor yet.(lotto tickets haven't gone my way yet)
The 727 has a bunch of upgrade parts (ultimate front drum, 16 roller bolt in sprague, low band apply VB, ridged band, etc) The fuel system is 1/2" alum supply line, with 3/8" lines from the regulator to the carb.
The dana has 35 spline axles, yadda yadda yadda....

I think on the whole it's a well balanced combo.
I tried a 254 racer brown cam. The mph went up, and even my et improved a little, but my 60 ft went down. Made me think I needed more converter to make that cam work with the rest of the motor. I wasn't up for 700 to 1K for a good converter, so I put the 242 back in.
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  #17  
Old 04-29-2009, 01:24 AM
Walkercolt Walkercolt is offline
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Dave, I also think it's a WELL BALANCED combination of parts, and you're pushing alot of metal round with it faster than bigger engines, lighter cars and many more $$$$. The 750 Mighty Demon is a little surprising to me(I would have thought 850 CFM would be needed, but it's not) but you're also getting the power to the ground effectively. When the Money Fairy comes along, some stroke, the aluminum Eddy heads(or others) and some more CR, you might be in the very low 11's, or on a great air day 10's. Of course, that's where breaking things becomes pretty common too. You sound like you could teach a course on "How to Build Effective Power", but not many people would listen to you, sadly. I won't throw the durability at 5800 RPM's vs: 7000 RPM's into the question. If you ever get the urge to head down Oklahoma way, I could line up a BUNCH of suckers you could take $500 from for each run on Saturday nights. The guy from Missouri (with a Ford sadly) has cleaned their clocks so he doesn't drive down here anymore. The usual bunch who think they're fast vs: the guy who IS fast. Tulsa's track is slow. It has been since it opened in the 70's and it still is. .3-.4 sec slower than Texas Int'n., but you'd still have from a 1/2 sec to a couple tenths on the usual suspects. I paid for my 1983 Suzuki GS110ED at the track, against some of the same guys, and they're still dumb today.
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  #18  
Old 04-29-2009, 09:30 AM
63Fury 63Fury is offline
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I've always liked the old TM7. I have 3 of them and whenever I see tham at swap meets I pick em up. I've run em on stock 440's and 500 HP 440's. On the HP engines I will run a 2 inch spacer under the carb.
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  #19  
Old 05-28-2009, 10:58 PM
DusterMan360 DusterMan360 is offline
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this article should answer a lot of questions about intake manifolds. the eddy RPM turned out to be the best choice in this situation. especially when the motor was in its milder state

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/h...aro/index.html

heres part 2

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/h...lds/index.html
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Old 06-07-2009, 11:19 AM
Rug_Trucker Rug_Trucker is offline
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Never seen that Weiand before. It looks like a single plane. Old looking tech..............
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  #21  
Old 06-07-2009, 11:32 AM
buckneccid buckneccid is offline
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Yea Trucker, it's a single plane, lower than most dual plane factory intakes. Has a huge plenum, center divider with balance holes, VERY short runners, to the tune of maybe 2 inches at the longest point and maybe 1/2" on the bottom. Still running it on my 440 in the '71, and sure doesn't seem to be any loss of bottom end, but still pulls good on top end. It's almost like it thinks it's a dual plane on the bottom, but it recognizes the plenum as a holding area for when it needs more flow on top end. Kinda reminds me of the old rat roasters in some way.

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Old 06-07-2009, 11:44 AM
Rug_Trucker Rug_Trucker is offline
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Kind of reminds me of the Offenhauser of the sme era. I have a 383 Offy someone traded me for a iron 360 intake.
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  #23  
Old 06-08-2009, 12:47 AM
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pishta pishta is offline
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That intake looks like the Offy 360 to me, but I am familiar with that WEIAND model, its kinda cool with its integral valley pan design. And for the Guy that said the Holley Street Dominator for the 383 was a failure , You might be mistaking it for the Edelbrock Street Master, similar design but didnt work that well.
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  #24  
Old 06-10-2009, 02:06 AM
rampage_82 rampage_82 is offline
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Hell everyone around here was calling me a dumb a** for putting a torker II on my 440 in my ramcharger. The motor is a low compression pig (came out of a 76 motor home) It has fresh 346 heads, stock valve size, no porting, and the .450" magnum repop Mopar purple cam, 750 eddy, headman headers, 3" pipes with flowmaster wannabe mufflers. When I first started with the truck it was a pain in the butt to even drive (hence it was a bear to start, wouldn't idle, and seemed like it prefered to run on less than 6 cylinders most of the time, and was a complete nutless wonder). I put on an old Torker II I had laying around, a MSD 6a box, a holley mechanical fuel pump, and a billet procomp distributor. Now the truck is a pleasure to drive, it actually starts, has no stumbling fits, and runs smoother than most EFI trucks around here do.. IDK if I lost anything down low or not, but as nice as it acts now, I'm not willing to go back and try that iron manifold again.
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Old 06-10-2009, 04:00 AM
mhenesian mhenesian is offline
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Mopar M1 and '77 Olds Quadrajet (race modified & tuned for 230 degree@ 0.050" cam). A strange combination for a Mopar, but we were building Quadrajets for our Pontiacs, so what the heck ! At the drag strip it was equal to our custom built 750 double-pumper. But the double-pumper is just cooler looking and easier to tune, so that's what we usually run.

Mopar M1 is probably the most versatile manifold, and in our experience on the street and the track with our 440 '69 Roadrunner, it gives away nothing to the Performer RPM dual plane, yet has the top end potential of the Victor.

If you can only buy one manifold, and you have some hood clearance, the M1 is the best choice today. It's the same height as the Performer RPM.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg M1&Quadrajet.jpg (110.4 KB, 14 views)
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Old 06-10-2009, 11:27 AM
rampage_82 rampage_82 is offline
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Man I'm sure it runs good, but that Q-Jet looks strange on that RB... Hell it looks more out of place than my Predator.. lol
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  #27  
Old 06-10-2009, 11:34 AM
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here is a brighter pic of said weirdo combo.
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  #28  
Old 06-10-2009, 01:11 PM
mhenesian mhenesian is offline
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Pista,

Thanks for fixing the picture !

I can provide the tuning specs/modification on the Quadrajet if anyone is interested, I wrote it down somewhere,

Mark
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:31 PM
Brian Mills Brian Mills is offline
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Thanks guys for all of the responses and pics ... I'm stickin with my street dom . I got an Eddy 650 AVS Thunder on it now , and put the Moroso 1/2 inch wood spacer to reduce heat soak . Seems to be working out , I went with the raised throttle cable mount and return spring from Mopar , didn't know they were AR Engineering pieces , and I am expecting the Lokar kick down cable right away .

I liked the look ofthe Wein intake , might try one , and that Pontiac Carb might be worth a look if I can't get my Thermoquad back up to snuff .
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