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  #151  
Old 05-29-2007, 03:26 PM
david_w2_340 david_w2_340 is offline
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shakeylay hater
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  #152  
Old 05-29-2007, 03:27 PM
david_w2_340 david_w2_340 is offline
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general motors hater
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  #153  
Old 05-29-2007, 03:29 PM
david_w2_340 david_w2_340 is offline
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Default sorry

this is my 5th post so in 5 more posts i can quit wasting space on these forums...sorry....i just gotta post a minimum of 10 times to look at sanborns attachments
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  #154  
Old 05-29-2007, 03:32 PM
david_w2_340 david_w2_340 is offline
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Biggrin oiling

oiling is the 340s biggest down fall..............for sure.....its still as good if not better as any sbc oiling system
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  #155  
Old 05-29-2007, 03:37 PM
david_w2_340 david_w2_340 is offline
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Default t/a

ive gotta 1970 model t/a 340 block........i dont know where the numbers matching car is, so im gonna use the block....probly get some billet main caps to strengthen the bottom end even more..i know their not really necessary but our reputation is already tarnished with the bearing failure last season...so im gonna make sure the same dosent happen
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  #156  
Old 05-29-2007, 03:39 PM
david_w2_340 david_w2_340 is offline
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Laugh 4 bolt?

i know the t/a block has provisions for 4 bolt main caps........i may do that even though its unneeded....overkill
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  #157  
Old 05-29-2007, 03:51 PM
david_w2_340 david_w2_340 is offline
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Thumbs down 340

last before we had bearing failure, our little w2 headed solid lift roller cam 340 was eating up the competition......it was my first year racing a dirt car......im a dragracer so we went kinda motor mad. we came up to alaska from texas(dont ask) and threw the 340 in a 4200lb dirt mod that looks like an imca car but was really an homeade attempt to look like one. we had found it in the weeds....while everyone else had 2400lb imca chassis with sbc's...we were teased and shit talked when we showed up to the track with the car.until we fired up the 340....i could see that the little 650hp 340 bothered them.....within a couple of racedays i was dominating by full straightaway leads.....sorry brand x...
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  #158  
Old 05-29-2007, 03:54 PM
david_w2_340 david_w2_340 is offline
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Default sorry

this is my 10th post so now i can quit harrasing these forums and look at sanborns attachments...sorry for the pointless posts
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  #159  
Old 05-31-2007, 12:50 AM
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1976 Aspen 1976 Aspen is offline
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I'm running a 360 block with magnum heads and it's a 450 HP motor. It's got Crane Gold Race Rockers and oil through pushrods. It's a hydraulic roller cam. I spray it at the track with a 250HP shot. I spin the motor to max of 6500 RPM. I've been fighting low oil pressure for the last three years on this motor. Very low at idle and 50 PSI max at speed. All at operating temperature. I drive it on the street some but mostly at the track. My main bearings finally went out two weeks ago. I'm about to assemble the engine and was wondering what I should do for oiling mods. I run a blueprinted melling pump. A relocated filter is out of the question so do I modify the filter plate? More Holes? What size? I've read the previous posts but it's very confusing. Run a tube in the galley from where to where? What size fittings & Hose? Crossover? Block off which holes? Need info ASAP. Sanborn if you read this I would like to talk to you on the phone if possible. 218-689-2586 Ryan
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  #160  
Old 05-31-2007, 12:54 PM
340duster1 340duster1 is offline
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The problem you are describing sounds like one I encountered last year. This sounds like you are flowing too much oil somewhere, which will not allow the pressure to develop. So you will get low oil pressure. I would recomend that you assemble the engine completely but leave the valve covers off and the intake off. Build a pump priming shaft and pre oil the engine. You will learn alot about how oil flows throughout the engine.

My problem was that I was using the hughes mechanical lifters for the oil through pushrods and comp promagnum rockers. My oil flow was all to the top of the engine. I am sure the valve covers were filling up! Turns out the hughes lifters had no oil restriction in them and allowed way to much oil to the top end. I compared the restriction size to that in the stock roller lifter and it was 10x smaller in the stock roller lifter.

The oil pressure acted like the tachometer, cold I had 10 psi at 1000 rpm all the way up to 50 psi at 6000 rpm. The oil pressure followed the rpm even when "winginig" the throttle. I ended up taking out some bearings as well. I repaired the engine and installed a hyd roller in using the stock lifters and the oil pressure was normal...problem solved. I also preprimed the new engine and the oil flow was much less to the top end to prove my theory

So I suspect your problem may be similar in nature. Could be a missing plug somewhere in a gallery, or excessive rocker oiling as I had. But the priming of an engine will tell you alot.
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  #161  
Old 06-01-2007, 01:51 AM
Tarrbabe Tarrbabe is offline
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Idea Oiling is a simple and a multi headed serpent

Oiling is a simple and a multi headed serpent




The simple part is that you need oil to all points of stress and that is simple. The hard part is getting the correct amount to the correct parts. During the path the oil must take, it has many turns to take and velocity sometimes impedes the flow to the proper parts. Oil is like any other element, it must submit to forces of nature. Many of problems of oiling an engine properly could be solved if we had tools that would conform to our ideas instead of physics. It has long been known that the flow to the # 5 cyl. Was a problem. That is because the turn to the passage was too sharp for the fast moving flow resisted to inertia and caused starvation to that crank throw. If we had a tool that we could insert into all the crank oil passages that would expand to an oval shape after it got and open area of the oil galley, and stay in the oval shape till we wanted it to stop, we would increase the flow to ALL the flows of oil and relieve MOST of the problems we have oiling our engines. Many have believed that more pressure will fix the problem but that has it’s problems also. To much pressure causes the oil to foam ( remember, the oil has detergents in it ) and that is a false reading/protection. Also you must consider that the increased oil pressure drain’s power from your engine that is wasted. If more is good, even more is not necessarily better.


Sorry for the long post.
Just thinking out loud.
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  #162  
Old 06-04-2007, 12:57 AM
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1976 Aspen 1976 Aspen is offline
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I still need to talk to somebody about the oiling mods. It's all very confusing to me. Which mods and the right way to do it. Anyone willing to help???
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  #163  
Old 06-04-2007, 01:05 AM
mrsmallblock mrsmallblock is offline
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alot of good info here. very informative.

howard
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  #164  
Old 06-26-2007, 08:54 PM
DusterW2 DusterW2 is offline
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Sanborn, I hope you are feeling better after your kidney stones. I sent you an e-mail to the address that you indicated. Have you had time to look it over? Thanks, John
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  #165  
Old 06-29-2007, 03:48 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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I'm sorry, I don't have a record of receiving it. Please resend it to sanborn@cafes.net. Or, just post the question on this site!
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  #166  
Old 06-29-2007, 07:34 PM
DusterW2 DusterW2 is offline
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Sanborn:

I race a '72 Duster 340 W2 at 1/4 mile and 1/8 mile drag strips. My block is a '69 340 with stock stroke crank (318 Truck Crank). It has ported long valve W-2 heads with bushed steel 1.5 rockers. It has a MP .590/312° solid lifter cam. Also, a MOROSO 8 qt pan, Melling Hi-Vol oil pump, 90° aluminum filter adapter, and factory windage tray. It has run a best of 11.21 @ 118.7 in the 1/4 mile. Car is is street legal.

I am interested in modifying the oiling system on my next rebuild or my next build-up. This engine has had excessive oil pressure in my opinion. On cold start-up with 5W-30 oil, it will peg the 100 psi gage. As it warms up, it maintains around 75-80. However, it does increase with rpm. After a burnout at the track, it deformed the stock oil filter and sprayed 8 qts of oil on the track. Luckily, it did not hurt the engine, and I was able to shut down before it went dry. I now run a MOROSO racing filter to deal with the hi pressure. My bearing clearances are set at 0.0025", both rod and main.

The only mods I did was to enlarge the #5 main cap port that mates with the oil pump, did not enlarge to .500", only port matched. I also deburred the oil drain back holes in the lifter galley. The original engine builder installed brass tube orifices in the front #1 main bearing oil supply holes, under the bearing shell. I did not know this until I tore it down. I do not know what the reason for this is.

I asked the question about hi oil pressure on moparts.com and one poster replied indicating that he has seen Melling install the Big Block Mopar oil pump relief valve in the Small Block pump. The Big Block valve is exactly the same as the small block except it does not have a relief hole drilled in the side of the sleeve. It does have the flute cut. Have you ever seen this condition?

Anyway, I want to know what mods you would recommend to an engine used to drag race in a 340, revving to 6500-7000. I had planned to enlarge the main to lifter galley holes to 9/32" and enlarge the oil pump and cap holes to .500". Also, the oil pump passage in the filter boss to .500". Do you recommend tubing the driver's side lifter hole with copper tube? Any other mods? Do you believe I could use a standard Melling pump? What brand pumps are best? Thanks for any help you can provide. Thanks for your time, Jo
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  #167  
Old 07-01-2007, 12:32 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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First, I recommend oil pressure of 10 lbs. per 1000 RPM. This is when the oil is hot. Higher pressure than that is not necessary.

7000RPM is rather low for even unported W2 heads. They like higher RPM!

For your engine, I would recommend the passages be enlarged/cleaned up to about 1/2 inch.

Slot the main bearings to 1/2" in length. Fit the slot to the slot in the block. Drill the oil passages to the main bearings to 19/64". This really just cleans up the passages .

I would use a Mellings "standard volume" pump. You may need to install the Mopar high pressure spring in the mellings pump to get the desired pressure. Unfortunately, you may need to drop the pan a couple of times to get the bypass spring just like you want.

Unless you are running a roller cam, I wouldn't even tube either lifter galley.
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  #168  
Old 07-16-2007, 11:36 PM
D411-Lightning D411-Lightning is offline
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Hi, I've been lurking for a little bit, I kinda was sent over this way by way of the Moparts boards. I've held an interest in short track racing for awhile, but I'm going drifting instead...however, many of the stresses on the engine and chassis are shared between the sports, it's just we turn right too. Anyhow, just wanted to say hi and that I'll be absorbing as much info as I can for my M-body(Diplomat or 5th Ave...working on it).
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  #169  
Old 07-26-2007, 03:41 PM
mopar1k mopar1k is offline
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can somebody explain to me how they put oil to the front of a stock block
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  #170  
Old 08-05-2007, 01:48 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Why do we oil the front and back of a stock type block?

The Mopar SB has a good oiling system for moderate RPMs. The oil is fed from the back of the block up to the main oiling galley. Once the oiling is in the main oiling galley, it feeds all five main bearings, plus the lifters on the right side of the engine, then feeds (through the front main passage) the left side lifter galley. The right side also feeds the cam bearings.

What I think happens inside the engine at high RPMs is the oil in the main galley has turbulence created inside it by the on/off feeding of the mains, the lifters, the cam bearings. This turbulence can lead to starvation of the front main bearing----because the oil can't get to the front main at high RPM.

By feeding from both the front and back, this turbulence is eliminated.

High RPM for a stock type block is 8500(strictly my opinion). But I still think it is good for any race engine that operates above 7500. It's not hard to do---and eliminating one main bearing failure is worth the time/small expense.
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  #171  
Old 08-12-2007, 06:31 AM
86 MOPAR 86 MOPAR is offline
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Hello all, this is my first post here. I have read this thread with a great deal of interest since I have a 318 that just had a rocker arm failure.

I will be building a replacement engine for the one I hurt. The new engine will be a 360 bored and stroked to 408. It is going in a daily driver pu that will also be used for towing a 5500 lb car and trailer combination. I have a 3.89 rear gear with 26" tall tires, so it does turn some rpm on the freeway, but will never see the other side of 6000 rpm.

These are the oiling modifications I am thinking of doing:

1) Melling M72HV pump

2) 1/2" passages from pump to main galley on passenger side

3) modified filter adapter drilled 1/2" inside where 3/8" square used to be and machined 1-1/16" hex on outside to tighten by

4) drill rocker arm oil passage in block to intersect main galley for constant rocker arm oiling

5) connect 3/8" steel tube from passenger side main galley to driver side main galley

6) cam lobe spray bar made from 3/16" brake line with .030" holes since I am using a flat tappet hydraulic cam

I was not going to worry about the hv pump being too much since this is a low rpm engine. I am more concerned with geting oil to things that need it rather than how much power I will lose with a hv pump. I also want all the modifications to be internal so as to keep the smog police here in CA from geting nosy. That being said, I would appreciate your thoughts on this plan. Thank you, CJ
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  #172  
Old 08-12-2007, 02:15 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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It's good to see you are thinking about oiliing of a "tow engine". A lot of tow engines die an early death due to heat and lubrication while towing. With the gear and tire size you are planning, the RPMs you run while towing will be 4000+(depending on speed). And this will be constant RPM, not intermittent like in a race engine. So let me suggest you think about oil temperature as well. A cooler/oil temp gauge may be a good investment. And underhood temperatures will be high, something else to consider. With all the oil you want to pump, a larger oil pan with baffles will be a wise investment. And don't forget about oil drainback as well.

1) I have thought about use of the HV pump for several minutes. On one hand, the engine will be fresh, clearances fairly tight---the HV pump may be too much. But, with the extra oiling you desire---maybe it's OK to use. If it's too much, your oil temps will be high---another reason for a cooler.
2) I agree
3) I agree
4) Drilling the block is risky. I would suggest an alternative plan. Just machine a groove in the #2 and #4 cam journal. The groove only needs to be .025" wide and deep for plenty of oil to get to the rockers. I would enlarge the #2 and #4 oiling passages to 9/32" to get more oil to the cam bearings and not starve the mains.
5) A 3/8" is not necessary. A 3/16" steel brake line is plenty.
6) The spray bar is a good idea! But all you need is .015" hole size! Don't believe me? Try mocking a spray bar up with water and put 50 lbs. of pressure on it. Be prepared to get real wet. A .030" hole will flow a LOT of oil.

I would use 1/2 groove main bearings---your crankshaft needs all the support it can get because of the constant high torque requirements. And, I would also slot the main bearings to match the opening in the block---about 1/2" long.

Smog Police-----Ugh!!!!!!! Glad I live in rural TN.
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  #173  
Old 08-12-2007, 05:29 PM
86 MOPAR 86 MOPAR is offline
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Hello sanborn, I read where you made mention of various remote oil systems earlier in this thread. I am not too concerned with the filter mount or lines, but can't seem to find an adapter to fit the block. It looks like lines could be plumbed directly into the block with some machining, but a bolt on plate would be nice. Do you have any specific part numbers that you would be willing to share? Thank you, CJ
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  #174  
Old 08-12-2007, 05:51 PM
86 MOPAR 86 MOPAR is offline
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Forgot to ask another question. I am using a 360 block dated mid 1985 that came in my 86 pu. Are the later model blocks typically drilled larger in the oiling passages than the early model blocks? The reason I ask is because I know this is a virgin block that has not ever been apart before, but the oil passages are sized as follows:

1/2" from main cap to lifter galley

9/16" lifter galleys

5/16" on all lifter galley to main bearings

5/16" on rear main bearing and cam bearing feed

1/4" on #1-#4 main bearing to cam bearing

5/16" rocker feed from cam bearing

5/16" on front main to driver side lifter galley

Several of you have given dimensions smaller than these for early model blocks and I was pleasantly surprised to find my block with large pasages. Did the factory do this on select blocks or was it a fix for the small passages that the early blocks had? Thanks, CJ
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  #175  
Old 08-12-2007, 06:40 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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I have never used a block with oil passages as large as you spec'd. If you have one, a lot of work has already been done. Just make sure the passages don't neck down internally.

We have always drilled the block. But, I am sure someone offers a bolt on plate with drilled/tapped holes for remote lines. I have seen an adapter plate that sandwiches in between the block and filter that has provisions for remote lines to/from an oil cooler.
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  #176  
Old 08-12-2007, 09:14 PM
86 MOPAR 86 MOPAR is offline
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sanborn, do you just tap the block and run lines directly from it to a remote filter?

Sorry to be such a pest, but this will only be the second small block mopar I've done and the first one ended in a rocker failure. I just want to make sure I have all my stuff in order with this one. Thanks again, CJ
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  #177  
Old 08-12-2007, 10:34 PM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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Yes, we just tap the block and run the oil lines direct. But, we are race applications only---and high RPM at that.

And questions are never a pest!
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  #178  
Old 08-13-2007, 02:00 AM
86 MOPAR 86 MOPAR is offline
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sanborn, I've been giving what you said about the oil heating up with a hv pump some thought.

I already have a really nice oil cooler that could be put on the truck. I guess while I'm at it, I could run that with a remote filter mount that has double filters on it to park another couple quarts of oil in the system and keep it cooler. This should be about the equivalent of a pan with more capacity and then I wouldn't have to buy a new pan.

If the smog police see that and question it, I can legitimately tell them it is just for towing to keep the oil cool. I just don't want to remote oil the rockers and let them see anything going to the heads and give them a reason to suspect internal modifications for performance.

Thank you once again for your help and patience. There are too few people like you left in this world. CJ
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  #179  
Old 08-13-2007, 10:45 AM
sanborn sanborn is offline
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I understand what you are saying. The HD GMCs with the towing package had oil coolers from the factory with the 454s. You are doing the same thing!

Boy, the smog police must be ruthless. We don't have smog police here---just regular police. And they are OK with very hot street cars! Most of the local police have some race connections----past or present. If they want to look under the hood around here---it's to admire the engine!

I appreciate the kind words---but that is what I like (and try) to do!
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  #180  
Old 08-14-2007, 01:33 AM
86 MOPAR 86 MOPAR is offline
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Ok sanborn, you are a wise man. I ran the experiment you suggested for my own satisfaction and to try learning something.

I started off using an old yard sprinkler with a pipe plug in it that I drilled a 1/8" hole in. I then filled the 1/8" hole with JB Weld. This gave me an easy way to drill small holes with hand held drill bits. I then hooked this to regular household water pressure. The first hole I tried was .0135" and I then worked my way up in size to see what would happen.

I will use a .015" hole in my spray bar as you suggested earlier. Just going to a .020" hole was a HUGE amount more flow. This is why it is wise to listen to someone who has been there and done that!
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