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  #1  
Old 05-11-2001, 12:21 PM
Mean68Charger Mean68Charger is offline
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Question

Im back again. As you all know I have a 68 Charger with a 318. Ive decided to stay small block. I want to keep the 318 rather than go with a 360 because 1)its the original 93,000 mile motor, and 2)I think it would be cool to run with the big blobk boys with a 318. Now, I want to run mid to high 14's in the quarter without going too radical, and no nitrous or supercharger/turbo. Im thinking 9:5.1, "302" casting factory swirl port heads to bring my compression to 10:1. Mopar Performance 280/474 cam, 2200-2500 stall, 3:55 posi, headers and dual exhaust, and a bitchin large primary Thermo-Quad that I got to run perfect. Do you guys think I'll break 14's with this? I hope so. THX
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  #2  
Old 05-11-2001, 12:24 PM
Mean68Charger Mean68Charger is offline
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Biggrin

By the way. I ran a 16.22@85 with a 2.32 60ft time. That is bone stock except for a 600 AFB, dual 2" exhaust, and 2.76 open rear. Also, 8 year old 205/75-14's
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  #3  
Old 05-11-2001, 03:03 PM
Jims451 Jims451 is offline
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That sounds pretty good, but I would go with 3.91:1 gears and a 3,000 Stall converter and headers.
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  #4  
Old 05-11-2001, 05:12 PM
goldduster goldduster is offline
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try running "308" 360 heads (1.88/1.60 valves) Run a stock '71-up 340/360 intake. A 1971 model would be better because you don't have to block off the EGR. This is a pretty good intake from the factory and a T/Q would mount on it really well.

For a really good thermoquad, visit:

Demon Sizzler's Thermoquad Connection

If you decide not to run a thermoquad, run an edelbrock performer RPM manifold.
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  #5  
Old 05-11-2001, 06:54 PM
67Dart 67Dart is offline
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Biggrin

Come to the Dark Side. Squeeze it. Can't kill 318's
I had 318's with squeeze and couln't kill it. BTW 100,000
mile motors,tried to kill them, couldn't.
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  #6  
Old 05-11-2001, 07:14 PM
hey-you hey-you is offline
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I would have to side with Jims451 idea, on the 3.91s and a convertor change. What rpm and gear are you at when you cross the line? What tire size do you have? traction?.....This just a suggestion.
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  #7  
Old 05-12-2001, 12:08 AM
Darn Dart Darn Dart is offline
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I think I would go with the 268/272-450/455 purple shaft, it would make alot more low end torque to get the big beast moving. My brother-in-law runs the 280-474 purple shaft in a 360 Duster and it needs alot of converter to make it work well, (2800-3300 true stall)
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  #8  
Old 05-12-2001, 12:29 AM
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rumblefish360 rumblefish360 is offline
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I think those 3.55's are going to hold you back.
3.91's would be better. Also, starting at 10-1 compression is kind of high. Back it down a half point. It'll be better for the 93 octane gas. The carbon will build up some after awhile.
I trick my old cam with rhoads liffters and 1.6 rockers. More low end torque, bigger lift on the top end.
PS, more lift the better.
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  #9  
Old 05-12-2001, 02:12 AM
PRO PRO is offline
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Its possible,heres what you need for 14.50s in a 3600lb car,235 hp at the rear wheels,for 14.0 youll need 260hp,remember your drivetrain will eat up about 75 ponies so youll need 310-335 hp at the crank,its doable but wont happen by chance,youll definately want 4.10s for a heavy car with a small displacement engine,youll need more like a 3500 stall converter,youll want 9.5:1 actual compression,run a bigger cam like the 484/284 and run a rpm performer intake with a 750 holley,youll need a custom curved distributor with some hotter spark,run 1 5/8 tube header so you make alot of midrange to get the car moving quickly off the line.add an adjustable pinion snubber and cross your fingers.A couple years ago Hot Rod magazine did a small block shootout and the 318 won making 349hp,I dont own it anymore but it would be a good resource for you....PRO.............
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  #10  
Old 05-12-2001, 03:46 AM
Mean68Charger Mean68Charger is offline
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well, thanks for all the input. with the combination i listed, what times do you think I can crank off? Id like to stay with the 3:55's and a 2500 stall just because i have to drive it every day and would like it to be somewhat streetable. With gas prices going up, I dont think i can afford 3:91's and a 3000 stall to drive everyday. But anyway, any opinions or guesses on the combo I listed? THX
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  #11  
Old 05-12-2001, 11:38 AM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
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I crunched some numbers on Desktop dyno using some of the Hughes cams (I like their profiles better than the Mopar cams.)

using a 318 with mildly ported (big valve) heads and 9.5:1 compression, dual plane intake and small tube headers with mufflers:
The HE0914AL cam should make about 320 HP @ 5,500 RPM and 363 Ft/Lbs torque @ 4,000 RPM.
The reality is that at 9.5:1 compression you may have a hard time running on pump gas, but this is the torque monster cam.
The HE1923 cam shows 334HP @ 5,500 RPM and 358 ft/lbs @ 4,500 RPM. This should work with 9.5:1 compression.
The HE2430 cam shows 345 HP@5,500 RPM and 352 ft/lbs of torque@4,500 RPM. This is using the 9.5:1 compression, but the cam should allow a bit more compression. You may be able to run this cam at 10:1 compression.
The numbers with 10:1 compression are 354HP@6,000 RPM and 358 ft/lbs of torque @ 4,500 RPM
The HE3038 Cam only made 1 HP more, but lost 11 ft/lbs of torque, so I would not use this cam unless you go to a single plane intake and fully ported heads.

I would use the HE2430 cam with about 10:1 compression, and the 3,000 stall converter and 3.91:1 gears for best performance.
The HE1923 is sort of a compromise, but may work better with your 3.55:1 gears.
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  #12  
Old 05-12-2001, 03:34 PM
knurkl knurkl is offline
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Seat of the pants feel of the HE-0914-AL matches the numbers you punched in the desktop dyno. Only "data" I have is that my 318 goes from 0 to 60 in about 12-13 seconds, in a W200 pickup truck (4x4)

This motor has the abovementioned cam, Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb, MSD6-AL and RN-11-YC ignition and plugs, Weiand Stealth intake, Keith Black pistons, recurved distributor (all advance in at about 2400 rpm).

I didn't change the heads, just bowl-ported and gasket matched the original ones, and had the valves cut at three angles. My reasoning was that you want to get high gas velocities, at lower rpm levels, for my intended use (mudding). Compression is 1:9.1-ish, measured on a half warm (didn't want to burn my fingers) motor, just after cam break-in: average 134 psi.

I don't use headers (yet !!!). I expect even better performance after i get a chance to bolt these on.
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  #13  
Old 05-14-2001, 05:55 PM
Tim_K Tim_K is offline
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Smile Now for the Tim_K way.

Mean 68, before you go putting the compression up to anything over 9 to 1, look at the signs at the gas pumps. Even 87 is expensive these days, and the only thing better than going fast is going fast on CHEAP GAS!!!
From the numbers that 451 Mopar provided, you can see that raising compression from 9.5 to 10.0 makes only insignificant power gains. But you will pay at the pump for that little extra bit of compression! Also, your 2" duals are too small. 3.55 gears should be ok, but a converter stalling in the 2500-3000 range would help you some.

Here's my ideas:

Keep the 850 TQ, they run really good if you know how to rebuild and tune them.

Get a 2-1/2" dual exhaust system, preferably off of some kind of headers. With a small block in a B-body, clearance should not be too big a problem. Some nice 3 chamber Flowmasters will make it sound good without being loud.

For heads on your 318, get a set of 360 heads with the 1.88" valves and use them, unless you plan to wind the engine over 5500 rpm. In that case, use 2.02" intakes. Get the heads ported with a good pocket porting job, and a good general smoothing in all the other parts of the port. A recent issue of Mopar Muscle had pictures of big block heads being ported, and the pictures will help you get started a lot. Aim for a compression around 8.5 to 1. Yes, I said 8.5 to 1. If the engine doesn't run fast enough, you can always raise the compression more later on. And you'll like filling up on 87! If an engine breathes well, it doesn't need high compression. I have a near stock 360 in my '79 Aspen R/T (original # matching 360-4 motor), and even with the lockup converter and 2.71 highway gears, it pulls very well with 7.92 compression. I may raise it to 8.4 or 8.5 when I port some heads for it, but no higher, because filling up on 87 is just too much fun for me!

For a cam, I'd suggest either a Comp Cams Xtreme Energy 268 (268/280, .477"/.480") or a Hughes 2430 cam. Because of poor attitude from the guy I talked to at Hughes the last time, I'll probably use the 268 Comp cam in my R/T.

So let's review. TQ, 360 ported heads, Comp or Hughes cam, 8.5 compression, headers and 2-1/2" duals, keep the 3.55's and add a 2500-3000 converter. This should get you into the 14's and be fairly low buck on top of that. Have fun!
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  #14  
Old 05-14-2001, 06:52 PM
DurangoSLT360 DurangoSLT360 is offline
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Default Had a 74 318 Challenger Long post.

Like you I wanted to keep my 318 just because it's what it had.

What I had

1) J casting 340/360 head with 2.02 intake otherwise just cleaned up any casting flash and gasket matched the heads.
2)Crane 272 duration (216 deg @ .050) .455 lift (intake)
3)True 9.3:1 compression. (this was in 1990)
4)Edelbrock Performer intake (Gasket matched)
5)Edelbrock Performer 600 cfm Carb
6)14X3 K&N air filter
7)Hooker headers
8)2.5 in exhaust to Super Turbo mufflers and 2.25 tail pipes.
9)Torque Convertor TCI 1000 over stock advertized.
10) Chromed steel wheels 15X7 with 255 60 on back and 235 60's on front.
11)replaced the 904 trans with a 727
12) MP electronic ingition orange box
13)Forged pistions

This combo netted me 15.7 1/4 and 2.45 60' with 2.76 gears. 15.37 1/4 and 2.37 60' with 3.23's. 14.89 1/4 and 2.265 60' with 3.91's. I had 3.55's also but the track was poor condition and my 60' times were in the 2.7's from lack of traction. I ended up leaving the 3.23's in.

What I would do different!!
Spend the $$ to do a full port with larger valves in the STOCK 318 heads. Cam choice would be from hughes I think I was looking at the 1923 al also. And a better Torque convertor.

The 318 doesn't like the large port heads even with lots of gearing (unless my TC was junk) My static compression was 165psi in all 8. I had no problems with traction on or off the track even with 3.91's because I believe the large port/valve heads destroyed the bottom end torque even though the rest of the package was for more bottom end.

I had a friend back in highschool that had a similiar car to mine 2.76 gears, stock 340 intake, 625 cfm carter AFB, unknown cam (come out a a moded 340 from his uncle ), headers and dual exhaust. That car even with stock TC and 2.76 gears had unbelievable amount of bottom end. (I've personally driven it many times)

Another aquintance had another similiar car SB auto challenger and weighed it in at 3680lbs stock before it became his outlaw drag car. Our cars are probably similiar in weight.

Just some more food for thought.
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  #15  
Old 05-14-2001, 11:00 PM
TOOLZ TOOLZ is offline
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Biggrin

READ MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO DO.
YOU HAVE GREAT QUESTIONS, BUT THE ANSWERS ARE PROBABLY CONFUSING.

KEEP IT SIMPLE.

SOLID OR ROLLER CAMS ONLY IF YOU LIKE TO TINKER. THE 276/.490 MP SOLID CAM WILL COME OUT OF THE HOLE BETTER THAN THE 280 OR THE 284 DUR CAMS WITH THE 3.55 GEARS.

SPEND THE MONEY ON HEADS. GOOD WORK NOT CHEAP WORK. CONCENTRATE ON THE "BOWL" AREA. AND MATCHING YOUR INTAKE MANIFOLD IS MAJOR IMPORTANT, UNLESS YOU ARE INTO DEAD-SPOTS.

I SUGGEST A SPEADBORE CARB. I WOULD USE A 795CFM Q-JET, BUT USE WHAT YOU ARE COMFORTABLE WITH. IF T-QUADS ARE YOUR THING, USE ONE, BUT USE A GOOD ONE. A SPREADBORE WILL GIVE YOU BETTER STREET-ABILITIES, SMOOTHER OUT OF THE HOLE TOO.

YOU ARE TALKING DIFFERENT COMPRESSION RATIOS, SO I'M ASSUMING YOU ARE DOING A REBUILT ON THE SHORT BLOCK. REMEMBER VALVE RELIEVING ON TOP OF THE PISTONS. NOT ENOUGH AND ITS BENT VALVE TIME. LOTS OF DAMAGE FROM BENT, OR WORSE YET, BROKEN VALVES. 9:1, OR 9.5:1 IS A GOOD RANGE FOR MAKING USABLE POWER. IF SHE "PINGS", GIVE HER SOME QUICKSILVER 2-STROKE OIL IN THE FUEL. START WITH 100:1 (16 OUNCES TO 12 GALLONS) WORK UP TO 50:1 AS NEEDED (16 OZ. TO 6 GALLONS). GOOD FOR UPPER CYLINDER LUBRICATION. BUT USE A COLD PLUG EITHER WAY.

MY OPINION --- IF YOU'RE PULLING THE MOTOR ANYWAY, WHY NOT A 360? SAVE THE 318 IN CASE YOU EVER WANT TO MAKE A RESTORATION PROJECT OUT OF YOUR RIDE. FIND AN EARLY MODEL 360, OR AN E-58 MID SEVENTIES MOTOR FOR YOUR BASE MOTOR.
WITH THE MODS YOU ARE LOOKING TO DO, YOU WILL "NOTICE" MORE OUT OF THE 360.

OH, AND FOR SURE, LOSE SOME WEIGHT. THE CAR THAT IS. OR AT LEAST, MOVE SOME WEIGHT AROUND. BATTERIES IN TRUNK IS A GOOD START. YOU CAN SHAVE 5 TENTHS OFF YOUR QUARTER BUY JUST LOSING 500 POUNDS.

BUY SOME OF "MOTION SOFTWARE" DESKTOP SOFTWARE AND EXPERIMENT WITH SOME COMBINATIONS. DESKTOP DRAGRACING IS GOOD FOR GETTING HALF AN IDEA OF WHAT COMBINATIONS TO MAKE TO YOUR CAR, NOT JUST YOUR MOTOR.

EXHAUST -- NOT TOO BIG, THATS IMPORTANT. 2" PRIMARIES ARE TOO BIG. 1 5/8" TO 1 3/4" IS ENOUGH. EQUAL LENGTH PRIMARIES, AND EXTENDED LENGTH COLLECTOR AREA IS VERY IMPORTANT. MAKES A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE IN YOUR HOLE-SHOT. TOO BIG AND NO HOLE SHOT, UNEQUAL AND YOU GET STUMBLES. AND PUT AS MUCH ROOM (LENGTH OF PIPE) BETWEEN THE HEADERS AND MUFFLERS AS YOU CAN. GET THE MUFFS BACK TO THE AXLE. YOU'RE NOT RUNNING GIANT CUBES OR 9000RPM SO BUY SIMPLE MUFFLERS, NO NEED FOR HIGH DOLLAR-WELDED-FREE FLOW NAME BRANDS. I'VE HAD REALLY GOOD LUCK WITH ECONOMY MUFFLERS. LIKE A STOCK REPLACEMENT MUFFLER FOR A 440 NEWYORKER W/SINGLE EXHAUST. USING A PAIR OF THEM, YOU WILL NOT HAVE AN OVER BACKPRESSURE PROBLEM. THEY SOUND HEALTHY TOO.

HOPE SOME OF THIS HELPS.

TOOLZ
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  #16  
Old 05-16-2001, 02:08 AM
Mean68Charger Mean68Charger is offline
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well, i got a 3.55 posi third member for my car. I also got a good used set of 235/60-15's. How much do you guys think this will drop my time? I can feel only a little difference. Im sure it has to help my launch. Any info guys?
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  #17  
Old 05-16-2001, 02:15 AM
Mean68Charger Mean68Charger is offline
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I forgot to add i also put on a bitchin larger primary Thermo-Quad that I worked for a long time to get it to run perfect. Its awesome. Straight punch and it fries the tires with no bog or hesitation. PERFECT!! I have about another 400 RPM of top end power with this big beast on it. What do y'all think??
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