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  #1  
Old 02-09-2009, 11:15 PM
440freak 440freak is offline
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Default electric water pump VS. mechanical

Hello everybody. This is my first post on Moparchat.

I'm building a 440 and right now I am building a parts list. My question is is an electric water pump worth the money. I'm looking for power but I don't know if the gains are worth the extra cash.

Any comments are welcome. Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 02-09-2009, 11:36 PM
Crank Crank is offline
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street car no don't wast your money keep it simple and realiable .all my freinds that have them have cooling problems.
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  #3  
Old 02-09-2009, 11:40 PM
valiant64 valiant64 is offline
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Welcome! In my opinion, no. For a strip car where you're looking for every last bit of power, sure. For the extra cash spent on the electric pump vs. the stock belt driven pump, that money could go towards a better valvetrain, cyl head porting, etc. that would make more power for the buck. Besides, I think that for street use the stock pump will be sufficient & more reliable.
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  #4  
Old 02-10-2009, 02:12 AM
Walkercolt Walkercolt is offline
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If you have a cooling problem from too much HP, reverse cooling with an engine driven pump will help you. An improved from stock higher volume engine driven water pump should keep any streetable engine cool with the proper radiator. Electric cooling fans will save more HP than the water pump. Electric water pumps look cool, but then you need a bigger alternator to supply the juice, and they're darn heavy. Spend the same amount of money on head porting and you'll get more HP. You say you've got ported heads? Spend more money on porting. There's a reason some NASCAR Chebbies are faster, even though "they're all alike". Welcome to the asylumm.
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  #5  
Old 02-10-2009, 06:16 PM
440freak 440freak is offline
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that's kinda what i was thinking but i wanted to hear from someone who has used both. thanks
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  #6  
Old 02-11-2009, 03:05 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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I have dynoed an engine with both an electric and pulley driven pump, and the difference in that case was considerable. The pulleys were factory "overdriven" pump. Anyway, here are the differences, the engine was a pump gas "451" with Stage VI heads making 649 peak hp and 612 ft-lb of tq.
rpm , electri hp, pulley pump hp
3000, 290, 299
3300, 337, 346
3600, 400, 389
3900, 444, 430
4200, 476, 466
4500, 520, 502
4800, 560, 535
5100, 593, 570
5400, 619, 596
5700, 637, 612
6000, 649, 625
6300, 641, 629
6600, 622, 614

The rune up was the same, but the intake and heads were "hotter" in the pulley pump runs, and that must affect teh results some.

The "electric pump" was just a moroso motor that run the stock pump with a pulley. It wasn't able to handle appropriate cooling during the dyno pull, and that's why we changed to the factory set up. Later I have dynoed engines with a Meziere nad a Moroso pump that oges in to the stock housing; hte moroso was right on edge of being a good pump and the Meziere handled the job just fine in the dyno. Both have been streetdriven without overheating problems. Currently we are using a Davies Craig pump, which is the best I have used. It's a temp sensing variable speed external pump, and by building my own "water manifolds" I now have way more room in frrnt of the engine than with any other set up. And even on the hottest days here it isn't even close to overheating, the pump gets about 9 volts of current. I hjave run this set up for about five years now. I'm just in the process of reversing the cooling and putting extra lines in between the center exhaust ports to keep them a little cooler. Here with the front of the engine revealed you can see the manifolding, hoses and even the pump, it's "floating" in the lower rad hose and weighs only a couple of lbs. http://www.kuvia.1g.fi/kuvat/Tapahtu..._31_08_962.jpg And here is a link to the pump: http://www.daviescraig.com.au/main/display.asp?pid=47 We have the smaller one, and although the advertised rate is pretty low, some 20 + gph, in reality it pumps noticably more water than the meziere.
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  #7  
Old 02-11-2009, 07:39 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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I have a Meziere on my 496 (600 hp) Cuda I use on the street. So far, works fine. The cheapy $189 electric from summit did not work good. On average, I've heard 3 to 5 hp savings. But I suspect at 6000 rpm its much more. Maybe 10 to 15 from what I've heard. They only draw about 10 amps, so you dont need an alternator upgrade. If you are a hotrodder, and like to go fast, then do whatever you can to make more horsepower (within your budget). I now have an aluminum radiator, electric fan, and electric water pump. Just the pump and fan are probably saving me 20 hp on average I would guess. The really good thing about an electric pump, is that when you are stuck in traffic, and sitting there idling, you have max cooling flow!!! That is a good deal in my opinion!!!!
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  #8  
Old 02-12-2009, 01:15 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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Think about it! You're stuck in traffic, its hot, and you have mechanical cooling fan and water pump. Car may overheat. But if you have an electrical fan and water pump, you can be sitting there and have maximum cooling air and water flow, even when your sitting there at idle!!!!
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  #9  
Old 02-12-2009, 02:26 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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Or even with the engine shut off. In our case the max power difference int eh Stuska engine dyno was 28 hp between the electric and pulley pump. Even if the extra heat in the intake and heads explains half of it The electric pump run was the first one), 14 hp is still remarkable.
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  #10  
Old 02-12-2009, 11:22 PM
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pishta pishta is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DartGT66 View Post
Currently we are using a Davies Craig pump, which is the best I have used. It's a temp sensing variable speed external pump, and by building my own "water manifolds" I now have way more room in frrnt of the engine than with any other set up. And even on the hottest days here it isn't even close to overheating, the pump gets about 9 volts of current. I hjave run this set up for about five years now. I'm just in the process of reversing the cooling and putting extra lines in between the center exhaust ports to keep them a little cooler. Here with the front of the engine revealed you can see the manifolding, hoses and even the pump, it's "floating" in the lower rad hose and weighs only a couple of lbs. http://www.kuvia.1g.fi/kuvat/Tapahtu..._31_08_962.jpg And here is a link to the pump: http://www.daviescraig.com.au/main/display.asp?pid=47 We have the smaller one, and although the advertised rate is pretty low, some 20 + gph, in reality it pumps noticably more water than the meziere.
Are those T6 Turbos? Bigguns! That pump is my next purchase. Ill sell my original SS Aluminum pump housing and CAT pump to help finance it. I am in desperate need of room up front for a puller fan and the small water manifolds will give me the room. Mine is short hops to shows, nothing longer than 30 miles so MTBF is not that critical.
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  #11  
Old 02-13-2009, 12:06 AM
Crank Crank is offline
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ok i'm lost on this because if your loosing that much hp i would think the pulley is way to big and the water is going threw the rad faster than it can cool it .that could be the problem with the electric pumps too but then you could use 2 fans different thermastats, change pulley sizes different types of coolent ,2,3,or4 core radiators alluminum or what ever i'm glad dartgt66 has had good luck with them.some say reverse flow i can agree it will slow it down giving it a chance to cool or speed it up to pull it out the block faster the thing is that when you rev the motor the belt turns faster but the electric don't.is that good or bad?the way i see it is if its not broke why fix it.
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  #12  
Old 02-13-2009, 03:29 AM
DartGT66 DartGT66 is offline
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I didn't have any other set ups to try in the dyno and didn't really try to analyze it any furhter, so the results were just an observation of what happened in our case. But if you think about it, a regular pulley pump turns rpm related to engine rpm, and not related to any kind of engine load. So, basically it always runs at "full steam", ready to cool down even the highest heat loads. That is wasted energy. Now, a regular electric pump runs always at it's biggest capacity. That's kind of waste too, kind of like you had a transmission in the pulley drive that would retain the pump rpm always at 6000? The EWP variable speed system lives according to the needs of the engine, sensing the water temp and changingn the pump rpm as needed. I have tried quite a lot of different things in engines, most fo them really hasn't been much of a help except for the sellers bank account, but this set up is one that in my opinion is really worthwhile.

The turbos in pics are Garret, GT42 series exhaust side with TO4 housings and regular garrett on the compressor side. They are perhaps a bit smallish for huge power needs, but work pretty well as a package. We haven't done much engine or chassis tuning yet, but the boost comes up pretty quickly and it's very competitive in the street races run with a pro tree. We are running pump gas and DOT tires, and the car is a C-body '67 Plymouth VIP, so neither the weight nor the aerodynamics are really quite top notch. It's backhalved with a fouor link, but tje front suspension and steering are stock. The car is currently a national record holder in our street D class with a 8.13/171 mph. It could handle a better launch, and the speed is currently limited by rpm because the front tires are only good for 170 mph. http://www.kuvia.1g.fi/kuvat/Tapahtu...31_08_1477.jpg
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  #13  
Old 02-13-2009, 06:42 AM
cudabob496 cudabob496 is offline
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With my 600 horse Cuda, on the street I rarely have to turn on my electric fan. With the 42 gpm electric water pump, and an aluminun radiator, I get great cooling when driving. My hood is well vented so the air passes freely through the radiator. Only really need to turn on fan if stuck in traffic. A lot of peoples cars don't cool well because the engine compartment is so tight, that a back pressure is created to limit airflow through the radiator. Also, some guys at the dragstrip will crack open the rear part of their hood (raise it up an inch), to let air escape from the engine compartment, and pick up .3 seconds in the quarter mile!!!! Electric (puller) fans work best on aluminum radiators I think.
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