HEADS OR TAILS

[Speedy#1]

i can't get the thing to post under Speedy no more?well i have some good news i found some valves .their from a 2.3 FORD high performance.part#SEV2.3IS AND SEV2.3ES this is 1.740 and 1.500 their all ready back cut ,polished ,and stainless steel.AND do you won't to know the best part? $8.50 A VALVE YA HOOOO!!!!!but this is what you need to do.first their 11/32 so change the valve guides problem solved .call lee at 1(800)343-4287 may need a shim in springs not sure yet. their's about .050 difference on one and .020 on other.SO put that extra $400 back in your pocket.

[Tim_K]

Sounds good, speedy. Being that they're Phord valves, they'll need to be thoroughly cleaned and disinfected as much as possible before they ever touch Mopar metal, but if they work and they are cheap, that's fine with me. Was the 0.050" and 0.020" you referred to a different length stem? I think that's not too big a deal. We have to make sure we can get retainers and locks to work with the 11/32" valve stems, and can we still use stock Mopar valve springs?

[Speedy#1]

their is two different stem lengths for this valve .the stock mopar is 4.780 and 4.805 but i mesured mine and their .005 under that it but probley from use .now the new valve is 4.740 or 5.300 you can get either one . it.s a single groove .400 from the end so that help's a little now your spring retainers you can get +or- .050 i thought it was .020 and ..050 but it's -.040 and .065 .so that leaves about .015 on the one valve to adjust out with the rockers so the only thing i can see wrong is spring hight. it may have to be sunk in the head a little.this is no big deal either .The stock valve spring should work fine if your using a stock cam .you just need 11/32 spring retainers thats all.I.M not going to use stock springs because i wont a little more lift and longer duration with the bigger valves something around a 268*/.440 .I will take max tork over HP any day on the /6 with the long stroke that's why i went with larger valves for top end.WHAT would you rather have 300 hp or 300 in tork ? got any idea what cam to use ?im not sure if the bbd 2bbl is enough may need to change something .

[Tim_K]

OK, speedy, I'll have to go by a Phord dealer parts counter and find out more on these valves. Especially the retainer part.
For a cam in a /6, to be used for general street driving, I think the Mopar Performance 268/.460" cam might be the best. It has more duration than I'd like, but the only alternative is the 244/.436" which takes away too much lift. I haven't found any cams from anyone else that are any better. Clifford cams have more duration with less lift (bad), Comp Cams and Crane don't have anything better, and even Hughes Engines doesn't have a good one. The best lobes that Hughes guy told me about on the phone were a 214 @ 0.050" with .431 lift and a 224 @ 0.050" with .443 lift. Those sound like Shivvy lobes to me. He refused to give me an advertised duration number, saying everyone measures them differently. Yeah, yeah, just answer the question! There were bigger lobes, like a 232@50 with .477", and a 238@50 with .489", but like I said before, sounds like Shivvy lobes. He claims /6's and 273's 'don't need' the fast opening rates like bigger engines do, but I don't believe him.
So for the short answer, I'd try a 268/.460" Purple Shaft, maybe advance it 4 degrees.
If a BBD carb. isn't big enough, maybe you could try a Holley 2bbl. from a 360 or 400, although you'd have to get an adapter plate. Beyond that, it's 4 bbl. time!
To pick a preference for Torque or HP depends on what kind of driving you do. If it's mostly around town and do burnouts off stoplights with 2.76 gears, go for torque. Shorter intake duration. If you do lots of high speed driving, or have gears that keep the engine above 2600-2800 a lot, go for HP for those high speed runs.


[This message has been edited by Tim_K (edited January 11, 2000).]

[Speedy#1]

TIM-K i had the same run around talking to a comp cam guy he was telling me the same thing .He was telling me how every one mesures theirs different.He was your regular old cheby guy you know 350 in a ford 3 window .I hate that !! I bet the Ford guy's hate that too.Or even worse when they put a 350 in a old mopar! Well anyway i think your rite the 268*/460 may work for me i was going to use 244*/436 but the one that's in it now is 244*/405 stock .that'e not much differents in the two.Is their anyway to beef up the 2bbl bbd on it .i have two 318 bbd's could i swop parts .Next winter i'm going with either a turbo or webbers not sure yet.

[DartGT66]

At least in my case with the MP 244 cam the stock 2 barrel bbd gives more air than the /6 can use. Since a lot bigger 318 can use the same carb, I think you must really wind the /6 high to need any more than that. It's the same thing with the sidedrafts, the engine doesn't need any more air than it can use. If you want decent power, the turbo is the answer. I think the 2 barrell bbd is too big for the /6, and it could really use a carb with the same size, but with either manual or vacuum secondary.

[Tim_K]

As far as I can tell, all BBD carbs. from the late 60's through the 70's and 80's had the same flow rating, 350 cfm. Back when I had my 4 speed '72 Valiant, I noticed a large gain in bottom end torque and acceleration when I put a BBD on. When I put a 1 bbl. Holley back on later, boy did it lose a lot of power! I think a BBD is good for a stock to lightly modified /6, more than that and a small 4 bbl. vaccum secondary would probably be better.
I have my /6 head back from the machine shop, and the valve seals are on order at the local Chrysler dealer. Have to go to the junkyard this weekend for springs, retainers, and locks, and also head to manifold bolts. With lots of luck and good weather, I hope to put the head on this coming weekend.
I also hate it when people put a junk engine in a Mopar for car shows. If they can't think enough to use a Chrysler engine, they shouldn't have a Mopar show car. Sell it and get a Shivvy or Phord.

[cruzerjd]

I ran a Carter BBD on an AMC( seeing they are owned by Chrysler) 232 build up in the '80's and it worked fine. The car had a mild cam and stock pistons with port matched manifolds and could hold it's own against larger sixes and small i.e. 260 Olds or 262 chevie V8's. cruzerjd

[Speedy#1]

I guess you guy's are write the bbd should work fine .tim if you don't mind me asking what did they charge you to get the head work done?Do you have a copy of the 1997 mopar performance parts catalog on page 225 they have a picture of a f- body look's like mine same color,loovers,rear spoiler ,but i have crysler ralley wheel's and a small stripe down the side gray.i would like to find a snorcle hood scoop like on the older Duster/Demon but i can't find one.YOU know i thought that was 350cfm but i wasn't sure, a small 4bbl is 390 so i'm in the same ball park .I have a 3:91 in it know that's to high for the e-way but pull's my boat pritty good .i'm thinking 3:23 or 3:55 . it'll bust the tires loose pritty good rite now .from a 30 roll stomp on it and it will leave a nice 10ft black mark .can't wait to get the head done all so .

[Tim_K]

Speedy:
The machine shop charged me $60 to cut the head 0.070". Head gasket surface only.

[Tim_K]

Well, Speedy, I finally got the new head on. In short, I'm happy with the results. The engine seems to have more power now, throughout the rpm range. It likes to rev easier. It can now spin the tires (Sure-Grip) on most surfaces. It can't quite turn the tires on dry pavement, though, need some more work to do that.
I lapped the valves with the compound, some oil on the stems, and a 3/8" reversible drill before assembly. The intakes have some GOOD seats now, almost 1/8" wide. The exhaust seats are definitely hardened, a lot of lapping produced much less change, but I stuck with it until I got a good seat. 1974 head casting. I think I raised the installed height of the valves a little, but that's ok, I cut the head to compensate for those kinds of things. I also noticed that side to side play in the valve guides was much tighter on the intakes than the exhausts.
The vaccum gauge reads 1 to 2 inches higher now. I advanced initial timing from 4 degrees to 6 degrees. The car seems to cold start better. And idle smoother. A friend of mine says the /6 valves should be looser than the stock 0.010"/0.020" lash numbers. Said this would help power because if they're too tight, that's no good. I set mine to 15 and 25. A little valve noise now, but the car runs better.
So, here's what I have now:
125,000 miles on the car
184,000 on the /6 shortblock
147,000 head and valves
129,000 springs, retainers and locks from a junkyard /6
Quite a variety, but it seems to work good. When I pulled the old head, I noticed that the intake valves and combustion chambers were black, lots of carbon, but the 80,000 mile Splitfire plugs and exhaust valves were downright WHITE!!! The #1 and #6 plugs and exhaust valves were more a Grey-White than White. I think this would be a sign of too lean fuel mix, but since my BBD has its stock 318 jets, I don't know. Any ideas there? I'll post a seperate topic on it.
When I went to wire-wheel the plugs (lots of hard white buildup on them) the first one lost half its insulator right away. So I junked them. Found an old set of Champion RN12YC's to regap (0.035") and install.
Well, this weekend I'll be re-lashing the valves, checking head bolt torque, and doing my measured 1/4 mile and highway speed runs to see how much I've gained. I'll let you know how that goes.
If I got this much improvement just from some porting, I wonder how a /6 would do with a fresh shortblock, 9:1 compression, big valves, 268/0.460" Purple Shaft, 2500 stall, wide ratio 904, and 3.23 gears?

[This message has been edited by Tim_K (edited January 19, 2000).]

[Speedy#1]

TIM-K i think i can help you out here ok a lite tan or gray electrode burning with a few deposit's is normal .if you have a lite gray insulator which appears blistered and a considerable amount of wear rate it's from over advanced ignition timing ,detonation or cooling system stop-ages can over heat the spark plug.I would use a colder plug in #1 and #6 .I'm getting all this information from the electrical service manual 1979.OK NOW wet fouling is from worn rings or cylinder wear but it also states that break-in fouling of new engines may occur before normal oil control is achieved.in new or recently overhauled job's, such fould plugs can be cleaned and reinstalled.OK now for cold fouling or carbon deposits. THis dry black appearance is FUEL CARBAN THIS IS WHAT I THINK YOU HAVE TIM and can be due to over rich fuel air mixture ,possibly resulting from a faulty choke,clogged air cleaner ,improper carburetor idle adjustment ,or dirty carb.However ,if only one or two plugs in a set are fould like this it is a good idea to check for worn or improperly installed valve guid seals,or faulty ignition cables. this condition also results from prolonged operation at idle.Also i set my timing at 10* it has a lot more torck and better throttle responce for some reason but my vacume advance isn't working at all so when it's cold it don't idle so good.but when it's warm theirs no hessitation at all.ONE more thing do you know how big of valve i can use with out a bore notch ? MAYBE that's why mopar only uses 1.70 over size valves and i found out that the M-1 manifold does have larger runners than the super six .did you notice if their was a mismatch in the port's and manifold .mopar claims a 3% gain in hp posibly more in are case .let me know what you find out but so far it sound's pritty good!!!

[Speedy#1]

TIM-K When i checked the valve guid clearence on my 75 it was bad very bad on the exaust side over .030 play but only about 015 on the intake .but i'm using new ones anyway .I played with the timing quite a bit and 10* seems to work best for me in summer and 6/7* in winter.When you replace the cam make sure you check the tappet bores for rough spots or burrs you can use a brake cylinder hone and you need .0013 to .0026 clearence any more will give you low oil presure if the tappet bores are wet.you need 50 psi to run 5,000rpm's 60/65 to run 6,000rpm's but they say after 50 go 10psi for every 1,000 rpm's.And the valve lash seem's a bit high i would go .012/.0225 like my dad said it's better to hear them 'then not to hear'em.

[Tim_K]

Well, Speedy, got the 1/4 mile and top end runs done. Good and bad news.
Good news: The Valiant picked up 4 mph in the standing quarter mile. According to the M.P. Engine books' conversion charts, based on weight (3200 lbs.) and mph (from 74-75 now up to 78-79), I picked up 20 horsepower from the ported head! Went from 110 hp to 130! Happy Happy Joy Joy! All around driveability is better, too. I said that before. I'd guess a few pounds of torque, too.
Bad news: Top end didn't change much. Old top speed on my mile-long public highway test track was 104 mph. Now it oozes up to 105. Runs good to 90, a little slower to 95, a little slower to 100, and even slower to 105. Must be running out of cam. Was turning about 3800 at 105. But why did it run so good in the quarter when the engine wound to 4300 for each gear change? Just doesn't have the top end I was hoping for, but at least I didn't lose anything.
Aside from that, I checked and re-torqued the head bolts (70 ft.-lbs.). A few bolts turned a little. Also reset the valve lash from a 'loose' 15 and 25 to a 'tight' 15 and 25. Fixed most of the valve noise. MP says to run 28 and 32 lash with their 268/.460" cam. Must sound like a typewriter or something. Not good. Put on my hand choke assembly (over 5 years after buying it!), and took out the fast idle linkage. Not much difference, except the low gear bog is gone. A flaw with my old system. Well, that's all for now.

[Agamemnon]

Sorry to drag this back out...but on the subject of valves I just wanted to relay a way I got around the expensive valve issue a few years ago on a 225 dart project I had.

The 1.74 intake and 1.50 exhaust is possible by using the exhaust valves from a 440 and 318 respectively. The only change you will need to make is having the valves ground from 4.87 and 4.90 length to 4.70.

The stem diameter, guide clearance and face angle is the same on all these.

Wasn't sure if this had been thought about but it's a way to get there...plus you should be able to use more affordable valves.

I remember having them milled down and ran lash caps to protect the ends. The only other thing I remember having to do (besides the regular seat grinding) was changing the retainers so everything would fit. I got those from PAW.

Just a thought, it was odd but it worked good for me.

[Speedy#1]

Agamenon that sounds great!!I was wondering if you could use a single groove stem locks on a 3 groove valve then i could slide it down 1 or 2 grooves .I think were they get you is when you add a groove to the valve.LASH CAPS can't be all that much either.I have a couple 318 heads i'll take it appart tomarrow and see .But i do believe the /6 stem lengh is 4.78 int and 4.805 exh so thats better yet . TIM-k no tickets aahhh 105, that had to piss off the guy's with the new car's !you know 268/460 got to be pritty loud .i'll let you know unless you beat me to it first, 20 more ponies ,let me see 20 more with bigger valves aaa 15 to 20 more with a new cam aaa change the gear .New stall speed ,i bet i could beat this day and night and not hurt any parts exept tires and gas .And if i loose i'll get my 360 duster out and it looks like the same car.

[Tim_K]

Speedy and Agamemnon:
I have to wonder about that lash cap thing. With a mechanical cam, and lash in the system, I'd be worried about them coming off the end of the valve, and going somewhere bad (oil pump pickup screen?). Then there's the whole lock groove issue. I haven't gotten around to going to a Phord dealer for the 2.3 liter valve questions yet, but maybe this weekend.
Speedy, the more I think about it, the more I want to put a 268/.460" cam in this near-185,000 mile motor. But WHY does it need so much lash? I don't understand that part.
Here in Pennsylvania, only state cops are allowed to have radar. Local Barney Fifes have to use things like a stopwatch and lines painted on the road. Makes it real easy to see where they are. It isn't often I see state cops in my area, so the general rule on speed limits is: Disregard them. I should note I don't drive like a maniac, swerving in and out of traffic and such, but where there's a clear stretch of open road (is 100 yards a 'stretch'?) I'm on the throttle hard.

Also, when I do speed runs, I'll go up that section of highway northbound, to check for cops, turn around at the next exit, and stop about 1/2 mile before the start of 'the mile' until all the cars get way ahead. Then I have clear road for the run. Proper 'Tim' proceedure calls for me to hit the starting line at 75 mph, then full throttle to see how fast it will go in a mile.

With my new-found power, street racing is better too. Had a guy try to race me in his Shivvy pickup on Sunday night. I had him all the way through first gear. He got ahead about a truck-length by the time we hit 60, but that's better than I did before!

[Speedy#1]

I took the intake n exhaust out of the 318 last night broke out my Mitutoyo callipers and measured 4.990 int and 5.0 on exh .NOT a very good match.i called the mopar tech line today all so ,The guy didn't know squat about /6's and even told me that too.I slid both the valves in the /6 head and fit perfect 1.5 , 1.780 and still room in between the two valves . does any one know how big i can go with out a bore notch .MAN this is getting out of hand ,YOU would think with the millions of /6's out their some one would KNOW !I called every shop around hear and believe me alot maybe 50 and not one person new .i got the same answer you need to look down the bore NO #$%#$@!! i bet if it was a 350 cheby they all could tell me .Tim i was joking about the high speed run you drive like me with out the wife and kids nagging .A yellow lite to me is a good reason to see what the car will do!!i'm going to use the ferd valve valve too it's stainless i can use the 30* seat help with the lower lift range and single groove i think is better .PLUS THEIR CHEEP.

[Tim_K]

Well, Speedy, I went to a Phord dealer this weekend, and called a Phord machine shop. They weren't very helpful. Things like "Uhhh, we need a model year" and "Uhhh, we don't have those specs", and "Uhhh, I don't know".
Typical Phord answers from someone not smart enough to drive a Mopar. I went back in our long list here, and found that 800 phone number and part numbers. I'll try calling that guy and see what he says.

[Speedy#1]

Tim-k yup i would call that guy but i;ve been calling around and found them even cheeper 5.00$ THEY MAKE three different lengh stock and 2-high performance so even if they have to be shorter it's still vary cheep.in the mopar muscle march 2000 they had a 79 360 smog head they got to flow better then a 340-x-head that used the same type valve .Well anyway the valve made a large inprovement over stock and mostly in the low end .IF you read the article it was pritty good and really simple to get the smog heads to flow.

[Tim_K]

Ok, Speedy, time for a new page, this one's getting to be long in loading time. Besides, it'll flip over to 2 pages soon. How about a title like "Speedy and Tim's Slant Six page" or something like that? Something to let people know right away it's a /6 page. We're getting off the subject on the MP 2000 Catalog page.

[David Thomson]

Speedy,
I would not polish the intake ports. From everyone I've talked to and all the books I've read the surface of the port makes up for something like 1 percent of flow loss. Stick with the bowls and clean up the runners.
The reason for polishing the exhaust and combustion chamber is stop the build up of carbon (it can't stick to the polished metal). Carbon build-up over time will increase compression and cause a restriction in the exhaust.

I have a text document on valves that may (or may not) be useful. It suggest using a 1957 dodge V8 exhaust valve which is 1.5" and the correct length although it does need a notch in the bore for clearance. For the intake it suggests a 1.75" exhaust valve from a 1957 or 58 Chrysler 392 V8. It's length needs to be reduced by .270" and new lock grooves cut but requires no bore notch.
The only problem is these valves may be impossible to find?

The document is full of info on slant 6 mods, about 40Kbytes. If you are interested let me know and I'll e-mail you a copy.

David Thomson

[dusterkid72]

i have a turbo slant six i will post pix later

[Dick]

7 year old thread.