racing srt-4 vs. GTX

[polara69]

me,

i do like the v8 rwd thing because its probably
the best and most economical concept to work with.

but i respect every well built car that
delivers in terms of performance.

acceleration as well as handling.

if i would be racing,
i even would consider to build a small 4 or 6 cyl.
car like an old bmw 3 or something alike.

the more my car gets underestimated,
the better it is.

here,
on the streets i used to scare people with an old,
empty, dirtpacked, lightened, fully build van with a fully built,
long rod 355 sbc efi motor.
it had 4 wheel wilwood brakes,
moved engine for better wheight distr., a built lowered suspension and kicked ass in every term of performance.

but looked like a worthless piece of crap.

[road chicken]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NZ 440R/T
Roadchicken, was that Supra worked? Just asking because you should have whipped his ass easy if it was stock even worked. No contest.

I had to go look on the net- It was- 96-97 with a body kit. I don't know if he had done any work under the hood. I'd imagine so since the house he pulled out of was over 1.5 mil last time it sold.
Besides what car swooped out doesn't have any work done under the hood? (on the net- seems they all have at LEAST 450RWHP= some even to 1000BHP.... But can only cut a 10.3 1/4......Hmmm, I know of a 511 bhp 440 duster that cuts an all motor 10.2 in the 1/4. )
Anyway, I was behind him @ 60-5 mph. I was futzin with the tunes and wasn't paying attention. I looked up and I'm like" where is he going?".....since he put about 300 ft more on me and gaining. I did a down shift and just rolled into it, I caught him in 1/2 -2/3rds mile. After that he couldn't do much of anything- the only advantage he had was my reaction time. I don't doubt I could have closed the gap to zero anytime.
I'll say this, after reading the claims some of these guys make- I might just drop the "keep it stock" look and start punching some ponies. TTI Headers, Edelbrock Alum heads, Keisler 5 speed and and the TBI . for next year. I KNOW I can get 450 hp real quick with the headers, stock heads and the 484 cam- the 500hp isn't to far out with the EB heads and the TBI.


The new car's are crumbly pieces of plastic but most of them are designed to obsorbe, Older cars take the impact like throwing a garpe at a wall, nothing happens to the car, but the passenger compartment gets all the shock and feels most of the impact. Newer cars have there "crumble zones" and obsorbe most of the crash.

I know, but looking at the Talon with the tandum passenger seat really made me think twice about them go karts. My bud and I got out and worked the fender out of the wheel well and drove the runner home. I have a daytona- but for a winter beater only.


But give me a Muscle car any day, I'll live, and I know my car will be fine!

I don't mind the new cars as far as choice goes. I have been in them and they are quick. (But too small for me, the daytona is the only car Iv'e been in I can handle.)If you like them, by all means enjoy them, but don't hand me how great they are and nuthing can beat them ever,( like I saw on the net, not anyone here). Yea- everyone one looks great at closing time too- but the light of day tends to show things you ain't seen before. Oh OHHHH I went home and I DID SATAN OhOHHHHHHH SHEEEEET

BTW Garpe- what the heck is that?

Polara69 your after my heart with that sort of thinking. Isn't the look on thier faces great?

[polara69]

mostly,
i just saw disappearing vehicles in the mirror

mike

cant await to get my polara together for even more fun.

[brian phillips]

This is one reason I stay away from this board. Most of you are to old-school. You are going to realize, and too late, that time has passed you by just like that turbo 4-cylinder just did. Do any of you realize how fast some of the 2liter crowd are going these days. Hell some have gone over 180 mph in the 1/4 while still using front wheel drive.

Now I love my old-iron but I do respect the advancements that have come along the last 10 or 15 yrs in the automotive industry...

Hell, my buddy and I can get over 400 hp to the wheels with only 1.3 liters, yes, only 81 ci on pump gas and drive the car everyday, hell, no efi, just a blowthrough carb.....

72 cuda....408...twin turbo
85 rx-7 13-b t-61 turbo blowthrough.

[NZ 440R/T]

I myself don't dislike Jap car's although I won't buy one (ever). Yes they are quite fast, some of them, but why are they quick? Hmmmmm, who couldn't make a coke can go fast? It's all a weight issue. If the only reson there pulling "quick" times is because there light as hell, then I don't care about them one bit. I'll pull 13 second 1/4's stock any day of the week in my Full steel brute. There all weight, no engine. Some do make some good hp though for the ci of there engines, I'll admit that but I'd love and laugh seeing a 1.3L even a 2.0L pulling 3,300lbs down the 1/4 in sub 11 seconds, even off the line!! LMAO!! No balls, no class, just crap.

Roadchicken: I say go for it mate, just keep all the stock stuff as you would all ready know.

[polara69]

bryan,

iam aware of those trends,
but if you introduce the "new" technology
to the old iron´s, what do you have then?

i do also understand power to wheigt ratio.

me,
iam getting to do some more advanced tricks
with my hi-tech smallblock. i dont think
that i have to worry about any 4 cylinders

[J-440]

I'm 33 years old and when I had my 67 Coronet 440, I was constantly being challenged by the "ricer" crowd. You know, the guys with the paint, stickers, wings, and fart pipes and no motor. These are the kids that take ass-whoopins everyday and know nothing about engine work. They get their bolt on parts from Autozone and JC Whitney. I wasted at least 2 a day on my commute. The only time I ever got beat was from a HemiRunner and a twin turboed RX-7. Both cars ran low 10's after I flagged em down and talked to them both. Nice guys with nice cars and I respected them. In a sense, the 2 cars made the same power with different body weights. I've seen the import drags on ESPN and yeah I respect the hell out of those guys to. Anyone who can get a 6 banger into the 8's is all right by me. Its these other poser idiots who are all show and no go who I laugh at.
But here's why I won't build an import drag car. Money, plus they sound gay when you take off in em. Car Craft built a stroker 350 that put out 600 horses on pump gas for $9500. You do that with a 4 or 6 banger and your gonna double or triple the price, plus the car will still sound gay when it leaves the line. And man I do love the rumble of a musclecar with 3 inch exhaust and a hot cam !! Just my 2 cents worth. Ya'll have a good one.


J-440

[brian phillips]

Yes, weight is always an issue, but why not go ahead and get that advantage when you can. The aftermarket is making a killing by making lightweight products for the typical v-8 crowd. Even the average racer spends money on making his car as light as possibe so he can cover that 1/4 mile ever so quicker...

What is so wrong in using a car that weighs in under 2500lbs and spending a little extra in making more horsepower..Less breakage, parts are cheaper, and using the proper safety equipment, is just as safe. Oh and probably a hell of a lot cheaper to fix if some type of damage does occur..

ok 600 hp on pump gas for 9500$...Hell, one of my best friends lays down over 400hp to the wheels(on pump gas) with that 1.3 liter(rotary) for a 1/3 of that cost. And the sound, have you ever heard a 9000rpm rotary build over 20psi of boost and rip 1.5 60's run over 106 in the 1/8th and over 130 in 1/4. It will make you wet on your self....

I would like some of you to go to the website fullboost.com.au
and look in the video section...There is no signin and the videos are very quick download and great quality...See what the Australians have to work with for racecars. I believe you will be impressed.

[dwc43]

I aint impressed. I have a 365 with 400 plus hp. IT did not cost 9500 or anywhere near what that rotary cost. Car weighs in at 3490 with me and fuel load on board. It will turn a 1/4 mile dirt oval im 18 sec at 100 mph with a 6.49 final drive. Take out the set up, chanhe tires and shift it to high gear (that's right we dont use high gear) and it will make that rotary look like the ricer it is. It's just a fact, there is no substiute for cubic inches and I can build lighter cars, this just hapens to be a rule for this car I mentioned. Would you like to run it against my big block Duster. It's only 2800 lbs and way more than 400 hp and it's lighter weight too. The fact remains, you'll never make enough hp or torque for less money with your 4 banger than I can with my v8. Yours will break just as often as mine, cause those parts are nop stronger and higher rpms stresses your parts more than they will mine at lower rpms and mine will make more ho and tq. You can argue this till your blue in the face, but you look at all the pro classes and you'll see a v8 in it, whether its NHRA,IHRA, NASCAR,Bush,SCCA,ASA, etc,etc,etc. The v8 rules period. Now you wanna race that 4 banger and loose some money to me? I need to buy another v8.

[NZ 440R/T]

Originally posted by brian phillips
ok 600 hp on pump gas for 9500$...Hell, one of my best friends lays down over 400hp to the wheels(on pump gas) with that 1.3 liter(rotary) for a 1/3 of that cost. And the sound, have you ever heard a 9000rpm rotary build over 20psi of boost and rip 1.5 60's run over 106 in the 1/8th and over 130 in 1/4. It will make you wet on your self....

LMAO!!! Yeah wet yourself laughing. Bap bap bap bap it's the worst noise out there the king of rice fart tips, a souped up sewing machine
Japs wil never run LOW numbers unlike the eights they don't have the capacity to run low numbers and never will - end of story. Fastest rotary in the world is light as hell, with about 900hp (wow) and it pulls 8 second 1/4's LOL!! That's in the world - fastest ever, sponsers, big bucks and that's all they can do Maybe the V8 's should remove 4 of there spark plugs to even the game up a bit?

[MOPARMANJAMES]

Bryan, I respect the new technology and appreciate the efficiency of the smaller engines.
At the same time though, don't forget the GOLDEN RULE:

Given the same modifications and specifications, a larger engine will ALWAYS make more power, of course while using more energy but hey, if you wanna play you gotta pay.

My favorite engines are in Formula 1. Gasoline(with additives),
3 litre displacement limit(about 180ci), Electronically actuated nitrogen charged solenoids for the valve actuation, so the cam profile is programmable, Naturally aspirated and making 900hp at around 19,500rpm!

[NZ 440R/T]

19,500rpm!!!!!!!!!!!! Holy sh#t that's heaps. Now those cars are tech. There transmissions are bloody awesome, changing from 1st to 6th/7th then back all in the same time it takes a race driver to change gear in a manual.

[custom880]

As much as I dislike this saying it is true. There is no replacement for displacement. You can go fast one of two ways....Either you keep the size of your motor and lower your overall weight, or you increase the size of your motor to go faster. The combination of these two equals a 300+ MPH pass in the 1/4. Now to go from 0-300 1/4 is incredible. You simply cannot do the with a 6 cylinder, or 4 cylinder unless you drasticly reduce the weight/mass of the thing holding the motor and trans. Bulk is need to propell, plain and simple. This is why motorcycles can go so fast, they are all motor and driver.
In order to reach claims of 400 hp and the rest out of a 4 or 6 it certainly costs extreme money. I priced mods for my sons Shadow because he had dreams of building a blistering 6 cyl motor. The costs came in way above the mods for a typical V/8. In the end he decided to throw his efforts into his Barracuda.
This isnt to say that there arent some real gains that have been made in the FWD market. They are turning out cars with motors in them that was unheard of ten years ago. The turbos they use now are very sophisticated. Match it up with computer technology and you certainly have a very quick vehicle, BUT when it comes down to the very basics.....You cant beat engine size. That is why you are seeing motors in the 800 CU size at the tracks. Do you really think the big dogs are behind the curve when it comes to technology? When they spend 40,000 on a motor so it will go 6 sec in the quarter they arent wasting their money.

[pcrmike]

My FranenDodge runs a 36 .030 over, specs below, and in the tune it is now, with a kinda small intake for velocity, atomization, torque and fuel economy, it makes somewhere in the range of 345-360 h.p. according to the flow numbers and the computer dyno. The torque is great for a SB in the 400-420 range from 1800 to 4000 rpm. I use this thing for pulling what I want, where I want, and busting the locals' chops. No real hot cars around here, but nobody has touched it (yet). My truck weighs in at a svelte 5300 lbs., and is normally aspirated. I know that the imports are smaller and lighter, and make some great power, but I have about 1200 bucks in the engine (and about 250 hours), about 550 bucks in the tranny (and about 20-30 hours in the conversion of A-618 diesel to v-8 gas, and fabbing brackets) as well as the 1000 bucks in the purchase of the truck three years earlier. As you can see, the total investment, including now shocks, brakes, and some of the suspension pieces to build the tar out of the springs, I have less than three grand in the whole truck.

Apples to apples now: If I go to the track with this monster, I will find the 60 ft. time to be about the same as a hot import, as launching 2 and a half tons is not easy. The 100 ft. times, I would be ahead, and then it would be up to him to catch me. The big end of the track is always harder to catch than at the start. That is one reason why the 440-6 was soooo bad at the track, because the gawdawful torque gave him a big advantage over the brand X dude. It was up to the other guy to catch him. Now I have been beaten on the expressway, when I pulled out to pass a ricer at about 70 and we ran to 100 and he pulled me, but if the same thing happenned at a slow roll, forget it! For me, also, you can make all the juice you want, but you will never pull what I can pull with a 4 or 6 (except the Cummins!)

[pishta]

Just saw a Tampa NHRA event that was all rice. How about a 10 second all motor civic? When did they start dragging Solaras? Anyway, I just test drove a Z-06 (wouldnt let me get it past second gear) and a Pontiac GTO (held to 30 MPH) . Holy cow, those were some fast cars....I never drove a Viper, but I hope Mopar has something modern that can touch those. Im anxious to see what the new hemi powered Dodge Magnum will become!

[polara69]

here in germany,
we the "detroit pushers" are
the minority.

people usually laugh over detroit built cars.

but i never saw anyone on the street who
could touch me.

had most of the fun with the medium engine
motorcycles and rarely a amg mercedes or
top off the line performance audi´s or beamers.

one time i saw a amg v8 going up in smoke after he tried to
test that old, dirty polara out.

i heard lots of rumors about turbo´d vw´s with 300,400 and even 500 hp around town.
but when i insisted to see one, then they were either sold,
out of tune or broken....

on the other hand the street legal drag racing category is virtually
owned by the vw beetle guys. theyre doing low 10´s
i do respect those guys,
they dont take prisoners.




but the :g

[brian phillips]

There you go again, blurting out things you know nothing about. 8's in the 1/4 were broken years ago with a rotary powered car. Low 7's happen all the time.

Just check out the racing section on fullboost.com.au
look under videos, download some and check them out.

There is no replacement for displacement was ruled out a long time ago when the first person put boost on a motor.

Most people view the import racers as young kids who watch to much F&F.
I can't stand the kid who acts like this or does not understand our sport. I am 30 years old and appreciate ALL fast cars. I love the stockers and superstockers, the pro-imports and top fuel.
I just would like people to be a little more open minde and understand everyone elses views...

Oh yea, I would love to run up against your Duster...My rx-7 or my barracuda, which would you prefer. by the way both will come with a shit-load of boost.

72 twin turbo cuda street car
85 rx-7 13b t-61

[J-440]

Brian, I think what we're saying is that detroit iron does not need poweradders to make natural horsepower. Like I mentioned earlier, Car Craft got 600 horses from a 350 stroker, naturally aspirated on crappy pump gas. All for around $9500. Pretty dam impressive for a small block. Now you wanna add N2O or some turboes then lets shoot for 750 horses. You can't make 600 horses from a 4, 6 or rotary without poweradders. That's where the weight ratio comes in for you guys. I agree with what your'e saying about your bud's Mazda, you can make em shit and git but, you gotta go with outside power.
Now FI, CART, NASCAR are totally different. Massive power from a small powerplant all on race gas or methanol and that's it. Unfrigginbelievable what those guys make!! But guess how much that motor is gonna cost ya? A boatload!! Hell you know all this, I don't need to tell ya. Have a good one bro.


J-440

[polara69]

i totally agree with j440.

and if someone would be real mean,
he would build a very light rod with a
mercury 2stroke engine.

i think that thing, nobody could touch.

mike

[custom880]

There is no replacement for displacement was ruled out a long time ago when the first person put boost on a motor.


Dead flat wrong. Hey I hate to admit it myself, but there is a platue that is reached with every motor. Simple physics says so. Engine to weight ratio is the only thing that really matters in the end. Look at it this way....If what you say is true that displacement was ruled out long ago, then I can get 400 Horse power out of my Briggs and Stratton mower engine. Obviously you cannot do that. Same thing goes with a 4 or 6 or 8 or 10 or 12 and so on and so on. Every motor reaches a pinacle and there simply is no more left. Again, thats why you are seeing 800 CU motors competing at the highest levels of drag racing. If a top driver thought he could achive the same results with a smaller lighter engine he would be on it like white on rice. You need weight to move weight. A lightweight engine with fewer pistons will reach its problems with moving mass sooner than a heavier engine with more pistons. I could not put your 4 or 6 in my new Hemi Ram 4 door 4 x 4 and expect it to give me the same results as my Hemi. The motor isnt strong enough to propell the truck regardless of the horsepower. The truck simply weighs to much for the motor.
Like I said before....This doesnt mean that huge strides havent been made by power add ons. Of course they have. But plain and simple...If you do the exact same thing item for item to an 8 vs a 6 or 4 the larger motor will win out. The shorter stroke motors can rev faster, but thats only part of the equasion. Short stroke only gets you so far.

[dwc43]

Plus the fact is your forgetting we can stroke a 400 to 472 real easy. So there is a lighter, higher rpm engine with loads more torque than a 440 for the sam money too. OF course if we ever did feel threatened, which I doubt the v8 crowd ever will, we could always add nitrous or a supercharger and tehn those little compact cars will be a blur in the mirror before they get out of second gear. Seems some forgot we can put power adders on a v8 too and still have less monet in the v8 than a 4 banger has in his going 10's. But, it's also nice knowing we can do it without all that crap. It means more to do it on all engine instead of added 300 hp worth of nitrous and turbos and fart cans. The v8 crowd will always get more respect for going fast on just the engine.

[6t9roadrunner15]

i just wanted everyone to know , i had a brilliant idea . why not put the roadrunner on the bottle! hehehe , it now runs 10.47s in january in FL. so im ready for anything. oh the car has 3.91 rear gaers, 440 , 0.60 over, good cam , m1 intake single plan , and a holley 950 hp carb. with a 150 shot of nitrous. ill like to see an srt-4 take me now!

[road chicken]

Roadchicken: I say go for it mate, just keep all the stock stuff as you would all ready know. [/B][/QUOTE]

Oh I will. The keisler and tbi are comming this year. But I may have to wait on the rest. Started a new business and that is taking up money and time.

[NZ 440R/T]

Good decision mate glad to hear it, keep us posted.

I hear ya mate, although work has been pretty cruisie as of late, I have been there before working hard out on the paddock.

[road chicken]

Well the whole idea was to use a TBI with a NO2 150hp under it. That was the only way I could figure out to keep the Air cleaner height where in needed to be for the Air Grabber. But the motor was built with that in mind.

The next step will be the heads, headers, and the No2 plate. Best part about that is..... The air grabber baseplate hides all of TBI and No2 stuff. Hee hee heeee. And the No2 plate gives me the touch of single plane I need for 6000 rpm running with the M1 dual plane intake. I will have to look into some sort of electronic retard for the timing, and conrtolling the NO2 I don't want that kicking in till 3 g. But I'm about 5 grand ahead of myself here.

[brian phillips]

69 ROADRUNNER, You may have a little to much for most srt-4 neons, but I would be more than willing to run ya with my 3.23geared small-block barracuda...You can run the bottle, I'll take my boost!..

[MOPARMANJAMES]

Originally posted by brian phillips

There is no replacement for displacement was ruled out a long time ago when the first person put boost on a motor.

Most people view the import racers as young kids who watch to much F&F.

If you enlarged your RX7 engine would torque go up? I think so, and we get horsepower from torque and rpm, so HP goes up as well.
The Golden rule is as stated, a larger engine with the same basic design and modifications as the smaller will always make more power.
Thats what is meant by no replacement for displacement. It has become somewhat misunderstood by the F&F crowd, I think they confuse making more power than a larger displacement engine with breaking the golden rule.
With proper mods, a smaller engine makes more power than a larger engine without these mods, but your not breaking any laws of physics.
So, my 30 year old friend, whether it's Rockets, Jets, Atomic Bombs, or internal combustion engines, the golden rule stands unbroken.
As far as how most people view import racers, the vast majority of import street ricers, er I mean racers are young kids who watch too much F&F!
You should see them on Friday nights here at the Strip, Fart cans and stickers galore!
I love it though, because alot of those lucious girlfriends come by and check out my Roadrunner, they think its Tigheeeeeet.!!!!

[eric414]

69 ROAD RUNNER,why do have a 1050 carb on a 12 sec car,i know you dont only 3.23 gears.my friend has a 451 and with a holley 950 carb runs 9.80 with eddy heads and mild soild cam

[86GLHSNo29]

Originally posted by dwc43
The v8 rules period. Now you wanna race that 4 banger and loose some money to me? I need to buy another v8.

Originally posted by brian phillips
Oh yea, I would love to run up against your Duster...My rx-7 or my barracuda, which would you prefer. by the way both will come with a shit-load of boost.

72 twin turbo cuda street car
85 rx-7 13b t-61

...and we haven't heard from "Mr 1/8 dirt track" since

For the rest of you:
Raise your hands if you can;
1) Run 11s on street tires(not DR's or ET streets either)
2) Run 93 pump gas
3) Have functional A/C, power steering, full stock interior
4) Get 20+ mpg
Anyone here? Beuler?

I love how the SRT-4 guy(second poster) gets grouped in with the ricers almost immediately here. WTF people?

Like it or not guys the turbo Dodge and SRT-4 cars ARE Mopar.

[dwc43]

First off, I used to run 1/4 mile dirt, not 1/8. We now run NASCAR Sportsman cars. Any time your ready, let me know. I need another V8.