I hate to be a buzzkill, but...............

[bjoehandley]

Four killed as car crashes into bystanders in Gary

Associated Press
Published April 11, 2006, 2:25 PM CDT


GARY, Ind. -- A car speeding down a city street collided with a vehicle making a turn and smashed into a crowd of bystanders, killing a 6-year-old boy and three men and seriously injuring three others.

The boy and men were killed Monday evening when two cars sped down the street and one struck another car making a turn, city spokeswoman LaLosa Burns said. Witnesses said the two cars were racing, although police were still investigating Tuesday whether they were.

The boy who was killed, Jaylyn Adam Ellis, was in a vacant lot with a group of friends and relatives waiting for his turn to ride a four-wheeler on the warm evening, said his father, Jermaine Ellis, who was in his parked truck only a few feet away.

The others killed when the car spun and slid into the crowd were identified as Billy C. Muldrew Jr., 35, Benjamin Harper, 31, and Conrad Richardson, 28, who died at a hospital. All three were from Gary.

"When the smoke all cleared and I backed up, I saw everybody laid out," Jermaine Ellis said. "I jumped out and started yelling was everybody all right?"

The driver of the car that crashed into the crowd was in critical condition, and a passenger in the car was in serious condition Tuesday. Fred Brown, 84, of Gary, the driver of the car making a turn at the intersection, was in critical condition at Munster Community Hospital, Burns said.

She said at least 12 people were injured in the accident.

Police were looking for the driver of a black Mustang that also was speeding, Burns said. No charges have been filed because the investigation is ongoing, Burns said.

Elio Avecedo, the owner of Elio's Hot Dogs & Mexican at the intersection where the crash happened, said drivers had been speeding on the street all day, drawing many onlookers.

"They start doing it whenever the weather gets nice," he said.

The car that crashed into the crowd appeared to be racing another car, Avecedo said.

"That guy didn't put his brakes on even a little," he said. "I didn't even hear the brakes, and there was a crowd of people cheering them on."

[1973Swinger]

84 and still street racing? Either thats a typo or an extremely stupid old person. No wonder the crash happened, the guy probably didnt have the reaction or motor skills left to make it. IMO street racing is stupid anyhow, keep that stuff on the track. Ive been known to do a few stop light races, but not anything that breaks the speed limit too bad, and certainly not in an area typically frequented by pedestrians or in heavy traffic. Usually late at night and/or on the expressway. Not that its very smart of me to do, but certainly ot as dumb a move as those guys were doing. I learned my lesson after getting 3 tickets at once when I was in high school in my ex girlfriends 84 Cutlass Supreme that I stuck a 350 rocket with headers, Weiand mid rise intake, holley DP, Comp cam and Posi in. I got unsafe start, illegal speed contest and reckless driving tickets and the cop went and put down military time on the tickets, so the judge threw them out. I got lucky there.

[dust]

Originally Posted by 1973Swinger

84 and still street racing? Either thats a typo or an extremely stupid old person.

See!? Old people can be cool.

In order to be old and wise you once had to be young and stupid. He must have been a smart kid...

[Madman Stephan]

Oh Lord... 84 was the age of the old guy that turned in front of the two speeding cars. Yeah, those racers are mostly to blame, but, the old guy cutting them off is also to blame for this mess.

[moparman92]

this is about like what happend up in johnsoncity/ bristol area me my dad and three of our buddies was coming home from the late model races at Bristol Motor Speedway and we heard a crash/ bang and tires skiding and toped the hill and came up on a wreck the honda SUV was exploding/on fire and a Black 01-04 mustang had a bunch of mod's was pretty much fine b ut it realy pushed the nose back some one of the girls who had just won the home coming burned to death and the otehr is still in vanderbuilt for burns. But They say that the mustang was racing a viper and that the viper lost? eh? Well explain to me why the viper was on a totaly difrent street when the mustang hit the honda at over 130 mph and shoved it over 250ft they are now trying to get the viper driver/mustang driver both for 2 counts of attempted murder and murder I still think that the viper may have pulled out a lil hard but not been racin and the 18 yur old mustang driver nailed it held it and hit the lil red button and ended up hurting his gf real bad and killing another girl. And burning another girl severly.

It was the worst wreck i have ever seen.

[bjoehandley]

Originally Posted by Madman Stephan

Oh Lord... 84 was the age of the old guy that turned in front of the two speeding cars. Yeah, those racers are mostly to blame, but, the old guy cutting them off is also to blame for this mess.

I doubt there will ever be a straight story released about this, just what ever is will probably be spun to make the racers (or anybody who drives even 5mph over really) look bad.

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by bjoehandley

...will probably be spun to make the racers (or anybody who drives even 5mph over really) look bad.

As they should. Racing on a public and crowded street is for morons.

[DanL]

Originally Posted by Madman Stephan

...Yeah, those racers are mostly to blame, but, the old guy cutting them off is also to blame for this mess.

You're wrong. If it turns out that the other 2 cars were involved in a street race (and it certainly appears that they were), the racers are ENTIRELY to blame. Jail time is in order here. The street is no place for this crap.

[Madman Stephan]

I believe that all three of them should be charged. Two of them for street racing, and the third one for failing to yield. What you've happened if, instead of street racers coming down the street, it was a patrol car / ambulance / fire truck? Do you think the old guy would've noticed those?

[DanL]

All we have to go on here is this news report. It doesn't say anything about the old man "failing to yield". You're assuming he ran a light, or a stop sign, or was otherwise illegally in the intersection. Fact is, he may well have been in the intersection legally but wasn't expecting street racers to come through.

This wasn't an ambulance, police or fire truck, and the racers didn't have lights and sirens on, so that's not a good comparison.

No, you're still wrong. Anyone involved in an accident while street racing is ALWAYS at fault.

Take it to the track where it belongs. There's a dead little boy and 3 other fathers/sons/husbands because some jackasses thought they could use public streets to race.

[72Challenger]

Originally Posted by Madman Stephan

I believe that all three of them should be charged. Two of them for street racing, and the third one for failing to yield.

Even if you think you haven't done anything wrong, the legal standard for "at fault" is that if you failed to take "reasonable action" to avoid an accident, you can be charged with partial fault. The tricky part here is, what is the definition of "reasonable"? The moron racers were far exceeding the speed limit. If you start a left turn while the oncoming traffic is a block away, there is no jury in the world that would call that unreasonable. Based on the distance the car was thrown by the impact, the idiot street racers made it impossible for a reasonable person to properly react to their actions.

[Mel Ott]

Back in my day .... I did my share of Street Racing ....."BUT"........

Back in the 60's when we street raced we usually went thru the
first couple gears (standing start from a red light) ..
50 or 60 mph was usually as fast as you got up to.
We always check the traffic and where the cops were.

The trend now seem to be just how fast you can go 100 + MPH.
IMHO that is REALLY stupid. City streets are NO place for that
kind of thing.

Just my opinion ....................

[Madman Stephan]

Originally Posted by DanL

All we have to go on here is this news report.

For a guy who admits that we don't have all the facts, you sure like to tell people they're wrong. What makes you think you're right? Are you God?!?! All I've been doing is trying to figure out what has lead to this terrible accident. There are possibly hundreds, maybe thousands, of street races going on everyday. Do you see people people dying at every one of them? No! There's a chain of events that took place in this case, and all I'm saying, which is a fact, is that the old guy was part of it.

I think all of us look for oncoming traffic before making a turn, and I know that I definitely would've noticed some racers coming down the road.

I've seen PLENTY of police speeding down the road on their way to answer calls. As careful as they are, with their lights and siren on or not, there's at least one accident every couple of years that I hear of, so, yes it IS a fair comparison smart guy.

At this point in your argument, you've already proven that your judgement is poor. Please quit while your ahead.

By the way, no I'm not wrong. YOU are just not keeping an open mind, YOU are quick to judge others, and YOU need to consider what facts exist and the posibilities that what YOU see isn't actually what YOU think it is, because YOU are not some sort of immortal, omnipotent being from elsewhere in the universe like YOU seem to think YOU are.

[custom880]

The tradgidy of the situation is no one needed to be hurt. If the street racers need to prove themselves they could at least find a deserted street. When we were stupid kids and had no brains we street raced. The big difference was the location. For a lot of reasons we chose a straight one way deserted street. No one in the many years that I knew about the racing was hurt except the people who raced. If they decide to race from stop light to stop light along with other traffic then thats just stupid. As for the old man....No one knows wether he was an inocent part of all this or was not paying attention and pulled into traffic. hard to blame someone like that especially since it most likely would have never happened if the two morons didn't race to begin with. The proponderence of the blame must go to the two racers who initiated the danger.

[DanL]

Originally Posted by Madman Stephan

For a guy who admits that we don't have all the facts, you sure like to tell people they're wrong. What makes you think you're right? Are you God?!?! All I've been doing is trying to figure out what has lead to this terrible accident. There are possibly hundreds, maybe thousands, of street races going on everyday. Do you see people people dying at every one of them? No! There's a chain of events that took place in this case, and all I'm saying, which is a fact, is that the old guy was part of it.

I think all of us look for oncoming traffic before making a turn, and I know that I definitely would've noticed some racers coming down the road.

I've seen PLENTY of police speeding down the road on their way to answer calls. As careful as they are, with their lights and siren on or not, there's at least one accident every couple of years that I hear of, so, yes it IS a fair comparison smart guy.

At this point in your argument, you've already proven that your judgement is poor. Please quit while your ahead.

By the way, no I'm not wrong. YOU are just not keeping an open mind, YOU are quick to judge others, and YOU need to consider what facts exist and the posibilities that what YOU see isn't actually what YOU think it is, because YOU are not some sort of immortal, omnipotent being from elsewhere in the universe like YOU seem to think YOU are.

Oooohh! Touched a nerve here, didn't I?

Nope, I'm not an immortal, omnipotent being from elsewhere in the universe, but if you want to call me that, I'd be glad to temporarily set aside my current title of Benevolent Dictator.

[Madman Stephan]

[QUOTE=custom880]The tradgidy of the situation is no one needed to be hurt. QUOTE]


Bingo!

[Madman Stephan]

Originally Posted by DanL

Oooohh! Touched a nerve here, didn't I?

Nope, I'm not an immortal, omnipotent being from elsewhere in the universe, but if you want to call me that, I'd be glad to temporarily set aside my current title of Benevolent Dictator.

Yes, you did touch a nerve by telling me over and over that I was wrong when all I was trying to do was bring my opinion to this discussion. Not everything is black & white. Yes, absolutely those racers should go have their licences taken away, be fined, go to prison AND do community service (i.e. talk to high school students about hour street racing has f!cked up their lives and the lives of others). Whatever happens to the old man, I don't care! But he IS still a part of this chain of events that lead to these deaths and, I believe, SOMEWHAT responsible if he did turn without properly checking for traffic.

[Fast_Eddie]

Stephen,

Now you're the one assuming things without the facts. That old man may have not done a thing wrong at all, he may have stopped and then proceeded through the intersection completly legal, you have no clue.

Bottom line is that the racers were the ones performing an illegal act that resulted in death.

You're trying to lay partial blame on the old man when the racers were obviously in the wrong more than any party here. What the old man did may have been a traffic infraction, keyword MAY. But his actions wouldn't and didn't cause injury and death, it was the actions of the speeding racers that did.

If you would have done a little research on the accident and saw the pictures of how far the car was thrown, you would have come to the same conclusion that most intelligent people have, that these rice boys were complete and utter morons, and they were in the wrong, no one else.

[DanL]

I just call 'em like I see 'em. I'm sick of treading lightly because somebody's feelings might get hurt.

[moparman92]

yeah i street race alot BUT its out in the country where theres no one out there and somtiems even on a old dirt/gravel road and some stop light races but never in a crouded area ya know what im saying?

[DanL]

Yeah, but how do you KNOW there's nobody around? Do you cordon off all the roads within a mile of where you're racing?

Sorry, but I don't think it's right to race on any public roads or streets, regardless of how much diligence you take. Only way I'd be OK with it is if the cops are there keeping others out of the way. Otherwise, you never know for sure. And if you hit someone in my family while you're racing on the so-called "empty" roads, I'll own everything you have. And if you hit me, my family will own it.

Sorry, I have absolutely zero respect for anyone who races on public roads. And certainly no sympathy for them.

[DanL]

And it happens again.

Just to bring this back to the top...

http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/loc...118183603.html
http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?O...7-c589c01ca7bf
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...16/detail.html

4 kids in the car that rolled, 5 kids in the other.

[72Challenger]

There's just too much carnage going on...

[bjoehandley]

Originally Posted by 72Challenger

There's just too much carnage going on...

OK...................now that was funny!

As for Dan's post...Stupid...Stupid...Stupid!

[DanL]

Gee, all I did was post a link to a news story, and now I'm being called names.

Seriously, that was a pretty stupid thing for those kids to do. Latest reports say they were probably doing over 80 on this city street. Driver of the black Grand Prix has been taken to the gray bar hotel, driver of the red Plymouth probably isn't far behind.

9 kids. At least 1 dead, at least 1 other in critical condition. Who knows how many families destroyed. And yet there are people who defend racing on the street because they pick their time and place to "make it safe".

I'm out of patience for these guys. I hope the drivers of both of these cars spend many, many years in prison. But beyond the guilt I hope they feel, their families will now probably lose everything they own in the court cases to follow.

[quietdad]

Originally Posted by Madman Stephan

and all I'm saying, which is a fact, is that the old guy was part of it.

I'm not even all the way through the thread yet, but that statement is akin to saying the murder victim was a key factor to a drive by because he was standing there. It's NOT society's responsibility to look out for street racers, but street racers responsibility or looking out for society.

We were lucky back in the day because there was a 15 mile stretch of I-78 in NJ built but not opened (some rare lizard or something....) and whenever we got the need we would go up on a deserted highway and the only people we would hurt (if it was gonna happen...) was us.

Street raciing on an occupied road is just plain stupid.

[quietdad]

Originally Posted by DanL

Sorry, I have absolutely zero respect for anyone who races on public roads. And certainly no sympathy for them.

I didn't think this could get better........

4 posts after saying the old man was at fault (or partialy to blame...) now the street racers are idiots....


Your a democrat, aren't you?

[72Challenger]

quietdad, you're getting your posters mixed up. Dan never said the old man was at fault, he's kept his story the same from the beginning.

[bjoehandley]

Sorry Dan, I didn't mean you, I ment the idiots racing with 9 passengers between 2 cars

[DanL]

Originally Posted by quietdad

I didn't think this could get better........

4 posts after saying the old man was at fault (or partialy to blame...) now the street racers are idiots....


Your a democrat, aren't you?

You better read again what I wrote. Mine are posts 8, 10, 15, 19, 21, 22, 25, and now, 30. I NEVER said anything about the old man being at fault. From the beginning, I've felt the racers were entirely at fault. In fact, I think that even if the old man happened to be in the intersection illegally (like pressing a yellow light or something), he should be held blameless because it's not reasonable to expect people to be on the lookout for stupid kids racing on the streets.

Nope, I'm not a Democrat. The only one of those I've ever voted for was Jimmy Carter, and back then I was a mixed-up 19-year old kid mad at Gerald Ford for what I now see as some silly reasons.

EDIT: BJ, no worries, I knew what you meant. Sarcasm doesn't always come through on these boards, and the rolling eyes icon just didn't spread the word, I guess.