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  #1  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:10 PM
Rich Kinsley Rich Kinsley is offline
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Default Having a few issues

I've been working on the taming of 'ol LeRoar my '64 Dodge Polara 4dr 324 poly with less goodies. I have sold my go fast goodies and am working to switch from racer to long distance cruiser. I don't think 'ol LeRoar likes being tamed :-)
I put in a stock hyd cam and the original 2 bbl manifold. I also got a new stock converter and rebuilt a new trans.. (I had busted the tailshaft housing on my original while racing.) I felt I had accomplished my goals with the poly engine and since I turned 70 it was time to drive the car more and break it less.

I have a very low vac at around 10-12" which wavers just a bit. This is indicative of late valve timing and/or not enough advance. The compression runs between 200 and 190psi on all cylinders. The cam/lifters and pushrods where all new as was the timing chain. The chain was installed straight up and I have a picture to prove it was put in right. The engine won't turn over 2600rpm without popping at the carb. It has been advanced and retarded and at about 10degBTDC it does best. I thought maybe the valves were not closing but it does not appear that way and the compression sure is high. The CR calculates at about 8.8/1 but that's a lot of psi for that low of a CR.

I do think I may not have tightened the valves down enough which is contrary to what would seem right with this problem. This dist was supporting 7500rpm previously and nothing was changed there so it should be good. (Mopar electronic w/orange box. Yes the orange box turned 7500rpm's!)

I will be swapping out the 2bbl manifold for my 4bbl 7503 that is prepped for EFI. Eventually I will switch to EFI but in the meantime I will run my 600cfm electric choke Eddy. I put it on this 2bbl manifold with an adapter which is less than desirable. Over the winter I will try a few things which will include checking my valve lash. (These hydraulics have adjustable rockers so they have to be set.) I will move the timing chain to the advanced setting to try that and I will be sure the dist is functioning properly. If I do not find a way to get the stock cam working right I will try the next step up in cams and start again.

It will come together if I keep working away at it.

Rich Kinsley '64 Dodge Polara 4dr LeRoar 324 poly w/less goodies
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  #2  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:15 PM
Rich Kinsley Rich Kinsley is offline
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I forgot to mention that it starts instantly and idles well. The fuel pressure was too high and I set it down to about 5psi now. I checkde the floats to be sure they were not damaged by the higher fuel pressure, about 8psi, that it had before I turned it down. Eddy's must be 6.5psi max!
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  #3  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:58 PM
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Dick Dick is offline
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Biggrin

I always thought the 318 A engine used mechanical lifters. I remember my dad had one in 1960 and I adjusted the valves a time or two.
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Old 09-04-2013, 07:45 AM
Rich Kinsley Rich Kinsley is offline
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Originally Posted by Dick View Post
I always thought the 318 A engine used mechanical lifters. I remember my dad had one in 1960 and I adjusted the valves a time or two.
You are right. Solids were what had originally too with no problems. However there are hydraulics available for it now and I believe they were for some of the last '66 engines and maybe trucks. Since I am intending for this to be driven often in the future I was leaning towards a build that would require the least possible maintenance.
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Old 09-04-2013, 11:20 AM
340_GTS 340_GTS is offline
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Rich, you cannot trust the timing marks on the gears, nor the TDC mark on the balancer (assuming non-OEM parts). Check TDC and then also "degree" the cam. The way companies are making parts offshore, along with very spotty QC, adds up to many problems for us hot rodders. It sure sounds like you have a big valve timing problem.
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Old 09-04-2013, 03:59 PM
Rich Kinsley Rich Kinsley is offline
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I agree with you. I did not degree the cam this time as I figured it's just stock. The damper is marked correctly though.

I will degree the cam this winter and see if there were any issues there.
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:01 PM
chirorod chirorod is offline
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Since it idles ok, although I'm not sure how it would at only 10-12" vacuum, it sounds like it isn't cam timing, although it could be with low vacuum. Is the distributor advance working? Sounds like intake valves are opening way too early, thus the popping back.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:59 PM
whtbaron whtbaron is offline
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Double check your spark plug wires... I had that once when I crossed #1 and 3 changing wires.
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:17 AM
Rich Kinsley Rich Kinsley is offline
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Dist advance is working and the plug wires are correct.

I am wondering if the valves are way too loose? I will be changing the intake manifold in a couple weeks and I can visually see the lifters then. If the intake closes too soon it'll make the fuel lean which causes severe hic-cups and lack of rpm's. Too tight can make the exhaust stay open too long and spit back thru the carb. I'm leaning towards a mix of several issues along with my shortcomings. I'll get serious in a few weeks after our garage sale which will help my parts acquisitions :-)
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  #10  
Old 09-05-2013, 12:25 AM
Rich Kinsley Rich Kinsley is offline
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[QUOTE= *********** Sounds like intake valves are opening way too early, thus the popping back.[/QUOTE]
================================================== =========

I didn't read that statement right the first time. I thought he said the exh was opening too soon which would cause a pop thru the carb. But the intake opening too early could also cause that. It'd force compression out the carb. Although the compression is very high at 200-190psi. The average is 194psi.
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Old 09-05-2013, 06:06 AM
chirorod chirorod is offline
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The more I think about this, the more confused I get. But you did change over to hydraulics, so I wonder if the problem is in the lifter setup.
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  #12  
Old 09-05-2013, 10:46 AM
440roadrunner 440roadrunner is offline
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Incorrect cam timing is your trouble and your first photo PROVES it

You do NOT use the keyway mark as you have done in the photo. Each keyway has a mark by the keyway so that you know which keyway, IE straight up, ( 0 ) and advanced (A or triangle, etc) or retarded ( R or square)

The TIMING mark for THAT KEYWAY will be the matching symbol several sprocket teeth CCW from the keyway.

When the engine is at no6 TDC, the keyway will be at approximately 1:--2: o'clock, NOT straight up as your photo.

Look at this photo which is NOT "in time" Look at the keyway to the right of top center, marked "R" NOTICE that there is another R several teeth CCW from the "R" keyway. THAT R is the one you use for timing the drive if you want the cam retarded. So in other words, when the cam is properly in time with the retard keyway in use, the "R" mark to the LEFT of the "R" key will be matching the top sprocket with the "R" mark at "straight up" and the "R" keyway sitting at about 1--2 o'clock.

If you are unaware, with the marks properly aligned at 6: o'clock and 12: o'clock, this is NOT no1 "ready to fire" but rather no6. So either set the dist in pointing to no 6 or rotate the crank one turn before setting the dist. to no1

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/d...ps22096650.jpg
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File Type: jpg timing.jpg (20.0 KB, 8 views)
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  #13  
Old 09-05-2013, 11:15 AM
Rich Kinsley Rich Kinsley is offline
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I think you may be right. I will try the dist change to see if that works. Thanks for the input. I feel like a dummy as I have done this correctly many times before.
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Old 09-05-2013, 03:06 PM
te.ringer te.ringer is offline
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if you want to do that don't pull dist just move plug wires,but 440 roadrunners right about the timing chain off .if your plug wires are off 180 deg it won't start ,you may have bent the valves a little with gear set out.like when a timming chains jump/strip gears.put the chain in right then remove rocker arm shafts and do a leak down test on each cylinder to check valves.I have replace many timming chains after failure, the engines had good compression.but would miss at Idle or pop through carb at high rpms found all valves leaking and bent ,this is why I would do the leak down. good luck
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Old 09-08-2013, 05:13 PM
Rich Kinsley Rich Kinsley is offline
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Thanks for the replies. I do have access to a leakdown tester. I won't be getting deep into this for a few weeks. Then I will get it straightened out.
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  #16  
Old 10-08-2013, 06:15 PM
Rich Kinsley Rich Kinsley is offline
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Default Found the problem

Well I removed the front cover and sure enough I installed the timing chain wrong! Dang it. It was off by several teeth. I had it set for a Ford per the directions. I don't have it back together yet but I am confident it will run fine now.

The original wrong way was per picture #1 with the keyway straight up. The correct way is per picture #2. I did degree the cam before removing the chain and it was 115deg which is way retarded. You will notice the "dot" to the left of the keyway which is the correct mark to use.

Just a plain old dumb mistake.
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  #17  
Old 05-12-2014, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Kinsley View Post
Well I removed the front cover and sure enough I installed the timing chain wrong! Dang it. It was off by several teeth. I had it set for a Ford per the directions. I don't have it back together yet but I am confident it will run fine now.

The original wrong way was per picture #1 with the keyway straight up. The correct way is per picture #2. I did degree the cam before removing the chain and it was 115deg which is way retarded. You will notice the "dot" to the left of the keyway which is the correct mark to use.

Just a plain old dumb mistake.
.

Just wondering how the engine ran after you re-degreed the cam ?

.
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  #18  
Old 05-12-2014, 07:27 PM
440roadrunner 440roadrunner is offline
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Well, LOL, it happens. Glad you found it after all this. Before you button it up, do some Google and research the forums on whatever cam that is. You MAY find that it's better off degreed ADVANCED somewhat. This lowers the HP curve and works much better in some engine combos for some cams. The old various "purple shaft" Mopar grinds seem to be "bad" for this. We had one here local, I think we moved it 6 degrees, my friend said it was night and day.
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